Xunzi Academy 丨Can Xunzi be Confucian? Is benevolence Confucianism?

【Yao Haitao】Huang Yushun 丨 荀子: The most thorough Confucian after Confucius...

[Yao Haitao] Xunzi, the most thorough Confucian. Speaking of Xunzi from benevolence, it is indeed innovation.

[Zhou Qirong] Talking about Xunzi from benevolence is indeed an innovation -- studying Xunzi without knowing that Xunzi talks about benevolence is not reading Xunzi carefully. How can one be considered a Confucian without talking about benevolence. Pick it up casually: "Chen Hu asked Sun Qingzi: Sir, the soldiers are often based on benevolence and righteousness." Therefore, from benevolence to Xunzi, it is not enough to say innovation.

[Chen Chenjie] If you ask Xunzi's thoughts, you must go deep into benevolence (love), and I remember that Teacher Han Xing had an article dedicated to this.

However, Teacher Zhou's thinking is a bit problematic, how can I be considered a Confucian without talking about benevolence, so what should I do if I deny that Xunzi is a Confucian? That said, I have always had doubts about whether Xunzi belongs to Confucianism.

[Lin Guihao] mouth pen talks about benevolence = Confucianism, mouth pen does not talk about benevolence = non-Confucianism, I see it is a nerd Tai Chi circle, I don't know the Red Chamber is too illusory to the real life art of the archway: "When it is false, it is true and false, and there is nothing to do." ”

[Yao Haitao] Although Xunzi talks about benevolence, from this point of view, scholars rarely talk about Xun with the theme of benevolence (those who talk about benevolence and etiquette are not among them). Professor Huang Yushun's 2015 article is basically early. Later Professor Liang Tao in 2020 has:

Liang Tao 丨 The Politicization of Renxue and the Politicization of Renxue - Xunzi Renyi Thought Has Begun

[Zhou Qirong] Xunzi mentioned benevolence and love. It's just that many scholars are on the same page. Xunzi divided the king to be benevolent. As quoted earlier: "Benevolence and righteousness are the foundation; the benevolent love the people, and the righteous are rational"; also known as: "The soldier of the benevolent, the zhiye of the king." "How can Xunzi, who is not a king bully, not talk about benevolence?"

[Zhou Qirong] @ Chen Chenjie How can it be considered a Confucian without talking about benevolence, then I want to deny that Xunzi is a Confucian - this question includes several propositions: 1. Benevolence and love are one of the core ideas of Confucianism; 2. Xunzi does not talk about benevolence, so 3. Xunzi does not belong to Confucianism.

These three propositions are independent and need to be argued separately. But all three propositions involve two questions: 4. What is the Confucian definition? With 5. Whether Confucianism can be used as a valid analytical concept to distinguish the system of thought. We divide the inferences into two sets to analyze the related problems involved in this main problem. The following is discussed in three paragraphs:

1. Group A argument

Let's first deal with the relationship between the three propositions 1 and 3:

1. Confucianism must speak of benevolence

2. Xunzi does not talk about benevolence.

3. Xunzi does not belong to Confucianism.

The proposition that "Xunzi does not talk about benevolence" in the corollary of Group A 2 needs to be argued first. Let's assume for the moment that this proposition is true, but 3. The proposition that Xunzi does not belong to Confucianism is not the only valid conclusion.

Proposition 3 as a valid conclusion of propositions 1-2 is only a possibility, not necessarily the only valid conclusion. Because there is another conclusion that may be valid. Benevolence is only one condition for defining Confucianism, and there are other conditions such as "kinship." So to establish 3. as the only valid proposition, it is necessary to discuss whether Proposition 1 is sufficient to exhaust all the conditions that define Confucianism: is benevolence the only condition for defining Confucianism? We know: No. Confucianism must talk about kinship. If Confucianism must talk about kinship (1a) is also a true proposition, the conclusion of group A relationship 3.Xunzi's non-Confucianism is a logically valid but not the only valid conclusion. This new proposition for defining Confucianism1a (Confucianism must talk about kinship) can lead to valid conclusions contrary to Group A.

Second.B group arguments

1a. Confucianism must talk about kinship, although Xunzi does not talk about benevolence, but he 2a talks about kinship, so 3a. Xunzi belongs to Confucianism.

1a. Confucianism must speak of kinship

2a. Xunzi talks about kissing

3a. Xunzi belongs to Confucianism.

2. Xunzi speaks of benevolence does not necessarily negate 3a. Xunzi is a Confucian, because benevolence is not the only condition for defining Confucianism. Even if proposition 1 is admitted as true, benevolence is not a value unique to Confucianism, and Confucianism and Ink all talk about benevolence. People who talk about benevolence can be Confucians or Mo. So the question of whether Xunzi belongs to Confucianism involves 4. What is the definition of Confucianism? Distinguishing between Confucianism and the Mo family requires other conditions. Kiss 1a is an important condition for distinguishing Confucianism.

The conclusions of group A are opposite to those of group B but are equally valid. However, Xunzi of Group A does not talk about the proposition of benevolence and love is not true, so although the conclusion is valid, because proposition 2 (Xunzi does not talk about benevolence) is not true, so conclusion 3 (Xunzi does not belong to Confucianism) is valid and false. The premise of the two groups is different. The two conditions for defining Confucianism: benevolence and kinship are important, but in distinguishing between Confucianism and other ideological systems, kinship is more important, because Confucian "kinship" further determines the specific structure of "benevolence".

Three. Back to your question

Then what should I do if I deny that Xunzi is a Confucian—to deny or argue that Xunzi is not a Confucian, you can't just discuss Xunzi without talking about benevolence. The fundamental issue is the need to define the core ideas/values of Confucianism and their differences from other "schools" of thought.

Of course, if your position is 5. Whether Confucianism can be used as an effective analytical concept to distinguish the system of thought, then the problem is more complicated, but this question can be discussed independently as a problem without involving Xunzi.

Whether Xunzi belongs to Confucianism is certainly a question that can be discussed. But before answering this question, it is necessary to discuss the more fundamental epistemological question of where the boundaries of Confucianism as an ideological system lie.

[Chen Chenjie] Discussing who belongs to the Confucian school is indeed a complicated question. In fact, I am not trying to deny Xunzi's Confucian attributes, but I feel that some of Xunzi's concepts are very different from those of the previous Confucianism (for example, Confucianism generally believes that etiquette is the meaning of heaven and earth, but this is obviously not the case in Xunzi), even if he himself thinks it is Confucianism. So I just feel skeptical, not outright negative.

For example, Confucianism generally believes that etiquette is the righteousness of heaven and earth, but this is obviously not the case in Xunzi - liben Taiyi, not heaven and earth? Heaven and earth are literal words, and there is no morality in the earth.

Moreover, the Mo family is the most benevolent, and in front of the Mo family, Confucianism is selfish and self-serving. Zi Yue "listen to his words, watch his deeds", can not look at the mouth, to see the reality, there are many villains and hooligans, and the most evil effect is often the intellectuals in human beings (the most harmful, killing hundreds of millions of people, but also can prove noble). Actual hypocrisy is true evil, and actual goodness and hypocrisy are true and good...

×× love to talk about selfless benevolence and selfless fraternity, and it is the Mo family, so it has long been criticized for Confucianism and anti-Kong. Later, I talked about Confucianism again, didn't I go backwards and fallen? Therefore, the deduction and characterization of this kind of person who draws circles is really useless, and it is not more than enough.

The question of whether Xunzi is a Confucian can be discussed from both objective and subjective perspectives: objectively whether Xunzi's thought conforms to the definition of "Confucianism" (individual scholars will have different definitions); subjectively, whether Xunzi himself identifies with "Confucianism"? The existence of the Confucian Effects section is a huge obstacle to doubting Xunzi's disapproval of Confucianism. To doubt whether Xunzi is a Confucian, we must first discuss the relationship between the ideas in the Confucian Effects and the overall thought of Xunzi.

[Lin Guihao] Confucianism is a warlock, and there is a technique that is Confucianism, including deception... Xun is also hierarchical to Confucianism, and it is another matter and is not contradictory. Either full of morality is Confucianism, otherwise Z Chairman Universe First Confucianism, because virtue and selfless morality universe first.

[Lin Hongxing] Whether Xunzi is a Confucian or not depends on whether we can find a standard similar to the "fundamentalist" sense.

According to Confucius's standards, he is proficient in the six arts, plays and sings, drives and fencing, can be a literati, can be a hermit, can fight, can govern the country, especially emphasizes the political Three People's Principles, emphasizes order and legalism, weakens the Three Huans (magnates), juncong parliamentarians (doctors), and implements reform and opening up.

Sanhuan is a vice-state level and a provincial and ministerial level nobleman, the main state level is only one person, the monarch (regime) listens to the doctor (parliamentarian) collegial vote, there is no media G control, the sub-council is to be controlled, can not be arbitrary... Confucianism can save the country perfectly, basically = nonsense, the mainstream era of Confucianism, the country has perished, I don't know how many dynasties have been destroyed.

(Xunzi Gakuen 2022.02.11)