Automotive electronics experts exchange minutes

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Moderator: Hello, everyone! I am the chief Pan Huan of Tianfeng Electronics, this year put automotive electronics in a very important research position, I think there are many companies in the future will grow into hundreds of billions or even trillions of companies, the car market is now the overall localization process, including the share of domestic brands, as well as the share of new energy vehicles will continue to increase, in the future, whether the new forces of car manufacturing or many traditional car manufacturers will define the car with software, so the form of the entire design will also change greatly, This time we also invited the industry's more famous experts, in the principle of protection, more famous experts to help us analyze the overall software-defined automobile and the specific situation of the current development of the main engine factory, we are also here to release the neusoft group in-depth report, in the field of software, automotive electronics more recommended Neusoft this company, when the time will also let the experts to help you talk about, Neusoft, Desay, Zhongke Chuangda several major everyone pays attention to the development of the company.

I will first give the time to the experts, starting in a problematic way, can the experts help us talk about the differences between the new forces of car manufacturing and the overall software system of the main engine factory, including what are the differences in the overall design related to automotive electronics.

[Expert]: Let's start with some brief introductions from our traditional automakers, introduce the complete automakers and then talk about the aspects related to the new car-making cases.

First of all, my own personal understanding, the traditional automakers here talked about, whether it is the Dongfeng system or FAW, the French system, more traditional of these automakers in fact, their technical capabilities focus on the automotive process, including the entire supply of their own car manufacturing, including some assembly, we often think that the traditional automakers are more like vehicle manufacturers, in fact, their core intentions are not very much, in this case, like when we did some automotive-related product development before, For example, we want to give the automaker a TBOX, or for a front car radar, are soft and hard form to the OEM to provide, the automaker he will not pay attention to how your hardware and software are coordinated, for him all the content is a black box, the concern is whether you can complete the function I want, the traditional automakers used to be like this, including many of our customers are generally in such a state, whether they are software design or software testing, Software integration has no corresponding capabilities, in the next few years in the entire industry is more popular "software-defined car" proposed, the various automakers, especially the traditional automakers, they generally do not have software-related capabilities, are gradually changing in this direction, for example, Changan built a software center, known as recruiting 5,000 software-related talents within three years, like SAIC, through retail to do related layout. Other automakers have more or less, including Dongfeng, including Geely, Geely has its own Geely University, they do some internal talent training, which software is also a very, very important piece of the current attention.

These changes from our understanding is that in order to cater to the general trend of "software-defined cars", OEMs want to expand their core capabilities, and do not want to be led by suppliers under the new trend of "software-defined cars", we said before that the mainland, Bosch core parts suppliers, they can greatly affect the automakers, the automakers are also very awkward about this situation. With the trend of "software-defined car", they are all doing their own core capabilities, their core capabilities are currently to define the ability of the product, what the car is going to be, what functions are there, which functions are done by other suppliers, on the one hand, they must grasp the core capabilities, the second will grasp some functions that specifically affect the performance of the vehicle, for example, they will grasp the part of human-computer interaction, because the human-computer interaction logic of different automakers is different, such as the commonly used oem of a certain system. Everyone can feel it, a bit like the Wuling school, you see its interaction mode to know that it is the mode of the French car, and the interaction mode of another car can feel that it is an interactive mode of a Japanese car, which is also done by the automaker now.

In addition to the discount, in fact, there are still a lot of capabilities to master in these software and hardware parts suppliers, we call him Tier one or Tier two, these companies they will also grasp their own core capabilities, for example, there may be some grasp of the core capabilities of the operating system, some may grasp the middleware, there are some grasp of the bottom specifically to do a variety of operating system packaging, more or less there will be some differences, this current traditional oem situation.

The new forces and the traditional automakers are not particularly the same, such as the Xiaopeng, Weilai, Weima, Hezhong we are talking about today, these are considered new forces, they are electrified on the one hand, on the other hand, software-defined cars, all of which are these two entry points to kill in this industry, these OEMs are relatively compared with traditional OEMs, not very experienced in production and manufacturing, rich experience in supplier management, too much experience and capabilities of traditional OEMs, They tend to be relatively more experienced in some software development. These automakers, the new forces have a lot of their own software-related design ideas, some of their own ideas, especially there are some new forces of the automakers, aiming at Google or Apple this kind of company is doing, everyone thinks, their own original set of systems, according to the traditional IT development, or the traditional IT development of a set of systems, they want to build a set of car machine system around that, there may be some people aimed at Tesla according to the regional way of the design of the vehicle, Some have their own unique design, this is not the same, relatively speaking, the new forces in this regard, the software capabilities will be relatively strong, but in fact they are not very specialized, I said not very specialized, the new forces completely lack the accumulation of automotive electronics, here there is a performance, such as the new forces, even if it has money, can recruit a lot of corresponding talents, but in fact there is a biggest problem, cross-field running-in, such as the traditional car machine manufacturing and software development between the run-in, New forces have little experience in this area, project management experience under the huge scale is often how to do in the car machine, the new forces do not understand very well, they may understand the software, but do not necessarily know how to build the entire system in the automotive industry, how to run the whole process, in fact, this is the new force We think there will be a certain lack.

However, from the perspective of some other parts suppliers, as the host just said, whether it is Neusoft or Desai, or Zhongke Chuangda, relatively speaking, there may be more opportunities for cooperation with automakers and traditional OEMs, because traditional OEMs often have weaker software capabilities and rely more on these suppliers. The new forces are relatively peaceful and not as many opportunities as the traditional automakers, and there is another reason here, the new forces now seem to be a relatively hot momentum, but from the overall experience, compared to the traditional car-making forces will still be in a weak situation. From the perspective of the entire automotive electronics-related industry, in recent years, it is indeed relatively hot, including the new four modernizations, we call him CASE, automation, networking, intelligence, service, such as intelligent networked car related business scenarios, electric vehicle-related scenarios, including time-sharing leasing, the first few years There are many time-sharing leasing companies, specializing in this kind of shared car, in fact, they are closely linked to the new momentum, in the relevant layout and industry.

As some automotive electronic English professionals, we will also pay attention to the entire industry personnel, the entire market atmosphere, from the current point of view, as a whole, there is a relatively large increase every year, which is not only the increase in the amount of car ownership brought about by this part of the quota growth, or profit growth, in fact, there is a great aspect of the change of the entire industrial chain, whether it is the change of the hardware architecture, or the structural change of the software, or the car factory, he wants to cut the cake, the industrial chain at the bottom is re-divided, Some of the shares that came with it, in fact, on the whole, corresponded to the entire market plate that we can see now, and it is growing significantly every year.

[Host]: When we recently looked at software-defined cars, including automotive electronics, because software-defined cars have become very important, it will definitely involve this part of the software, and when we studied, we found that a large part of the software is involved, including AutoSAR, and NeuSAR of Neusoft, what kind of link is this part in automotive electronics, and what kind of link is this part in the automotive electronics, and what is the relationship between the upstream and downstream?

[Expert]: Let me first talk about AutoSAR, AutoSAR is an automotive standards organization established in 2003, mainly In Europe, Europe and the United States, some automakers and internationally well-known parts suppliers, such as Daimler, Volkswagen, Bosch, Continental, these core members, they actually redefine the entire automotive industry, one of the reasons for their definition is that the entire automotive industry has decades, or after hundreds of years of development history, What problems will it be caused to find that the design concept and design method of a product, including the degree of reusability, are not the same between different OEMs and suppliers? The same function, such as the mainland, the same function provided by Daimler or Volkswagen may be based on different architecture implementations, different interface implementations, whether it is for the automakers or the suppliers at the bottom are very headaches, the cost is relatively high, the time is relatively long, in the performance of the project is not what everyone expects to see. He established this organization so that everyone can unify the standard and the unified architecture, and the core of AutoSAR is four parts:

First, he defined a standardized software architecture, everyone does some related design and development when there is a set of standard answers, this set of standard answers may not be able to reach 100 points, but as long as I do this standard answer, basically can reach more than 80 points, everyone will not have too much fork or too much measure.

Second, methodology, I want to build a certain controller in the car, such as ADAS or BMS, what kind of process it should be, what kind of upstream and downstream relationship, including what kind of way the upstream and downstream suppliers to agree on the results of mutual interaction, there are corresponding agreements, so as to avoid different OEMs have different specifications, different results of the house interaction, in order to bring everyone extra workload. From its own point of view, the automaker agreed on the interface between part of the application and the underlying automotive software that the automaker is responsible for, and the AutoSAR automotive software we talked about, which I will not elaborate on, we define it as a unified standard and a unified specification. We also defined how the whole product should be set, to what kind of standards to verify, these definitions finally came out, released is a set of AutoSAR specifications, you can see a lot of relevant document descriptions, including what the interface is, how the upstream and downstream relationships, this is the autoSAR he launched the standard.

[Host]: After I understand this, the new car-making forces, including Wei Xiaoli and Huawei, do they also follow such a set of automotive electronics design processes when they build cars.

[Experts]: Most of the situations we understand now, more than 80% or 90% of the domestic are in accordance with this system to do, or gradually towards this system to do, the traditional automakers are basically gradually changing in this direction, some new forces they will have their own changes based on this, or based on simple modifications, but most of them, at least 90% of the automakers are doing in this direction, of course, may be affected by many factors at present and have not done it immediately, and are gradually doing it in this direction.

[Host]: Where are the new car-making forces different from AutoSAR? For example, there will be their own special differentiation points.

[Expert]: In fact, most of the conceptual meanings in AutoSAR they can be reused, there is a difference in this is the more detailed place, for example, the whole car will do some diagnostic systems, such as you drive, say what problems I encountered in this car, you go to the 4S shop, 4S shop to shake this device to the OPD mouth, he check your industrial and commercial code, this is the vehicle detection process, I just give you an example, AutoSAR has given you the rules, how to do, But some OEMs feel that based on my own architecture, or based on some of my own designs, I don't want to do it according to AutoSAR, if it is bigger to make changes according to AutoSAR, he may do some of his own custom standards, but most of the situations we see now will follow such a way and method.

[Moderator]: If you look at it according to the future trend, at least 80% or 90%, perhaps 100% of the car companies that have built new cars, or models, will follow such a development process.

[Expert]: 100% is too absolute, but more than 80% will do it towards this goal, because the new domestic car-making forces, on the whole, although he has innovation, he does not have the ability to overturn the standards of the entire automobile industry.

[Host]: His architecture, including traditional depots, their architecture is the same, right?

[Expert]: The architecture we understand is similar, does this refer to software architecture or hardware architecture?

Moderator: Software architecture.

[Expert]: The software structure is similar, but there will be certain differences in the hardware, for example, we may say that there is a layer of applications above, there is a layer of middleware in the middle, the bottom layer has operating system-related content, the bottom layer may be some drivers, and then down is the hardware, generally will be in this direction to do.

[Host]: Where is the difference in hardware in general?

[Expert]: Hardware differences we see now, for example, the traditional automakers were originally distributed architecture, each functional component by their own independent hardware box or hardware board to complete, will gradually move in the direction of centralization or domain control, in this direction of the transformation will have different ideas, for example, there is a more mainstream, or everyone is more recognized a practice, I cut out several domains in the whole vehicle, each domain may have its own domain controller, Each domain controller goes to complete some of the functions of the original multiple functional components, such as I have a power domain, a chassis domain, a bracket domain, a body domain, and several different domains. First of all, this is actually the more mainstream in the industry at present, including traditional automakers are more accustomed to doing it in this direction, there are some new forces, such as Tesla, he is in accordance with the position of the car machine, such as the left front of the car, may put some functions in front of the left, such as the left front chassis related functions, and the function of the headlights together, the purpose is to save costs from hardware, do it in this direction, this new domestic force also has to try in this direction, but from the current point of view, Probably eighty or ninety percent is saying that everyone will head towards the domain controller.

I'm not talking about the future, and there may be a shift towards a centralized central controller in the future.

[Moderator]: Why can Tesla reduce costs in this way?

【Expert】: There are several dimensions to reduce the cost of the car from my personal understanding:

First, there is a very, very strong point in the car, how many teams and chips I have in it, it is easy to see my design drawings, there are 15 chips, 30 PCB boards, each corresponding to a different cost, which is easy to see, and what is the evolution? The wiring harness in the car. According to the regional division, there is an advantage, he hopes to use different functions to implement with software, you can simply understand that each area is placed in a PC computer, how can it reduce costs? The motherboard design of this computer is the same for everyone, after a large number of industrial production, as long as the amount is larger, the lower the cost, all the costs are divided into each board, each board must be shared, as long as the same board is made, the price is getting lower and lower, each of the remaining controllers made of the board is the same, only a small difference, in this case, as the board is more and more, the price of the board itself will fall.

On the other hand, the more I reduce the number of controllers, the more I can reduce the wiring between the various controllers, the various wiring harnesses. This wiring harness is in the whole vehicle, regardless of the weight or the cost of the vehicle, the wiring harness is a very important piece, from the hardware point of view, these two aspects can be saved.

[Moderator]: As mentioned earlier, other car manufacturers, in addition to Tesla, through the domain controller, according to my understanding, the window or car entertainment controls it as a domain, the chassis may be a domain, Tesla's approach is to put the lights and the left part of the thing in a domain, I don't know if I understand it this way, right?

[Expert]: Tesla what we have learned is public information, after all, it is a very, very closed enterprise, we can only think backwards with the field it represents, its design, what is the real design, from my understanding, the domestic automakers, unless they have really participated in his design, may not be able to truly understand his essence, most of the domestic situation is in the traditional sense, or in the usual sense of this domain controller, not according to the location of the car to draw.

[Moderator]: From the architectural point of view, AutoSAR, you talked about what NeuSAR is.

[Expert]: NeuSAR is the basic software developed by Neusoft Ruichi in accordance with the AutoSAR standard, NeuSAR is actually the basic software of Neusoft, Neu is the abbreviation of the first three letters of Neusoft, the SAR in the back, in fact, is the abbreviation of AutoSAR, neusoft Ruichi's own research and development of the basic software products, which contains the experience platform, mainly for the high implementation of the controller, the other is the adaptive platform, mainly for automatic induction cars, automatic driving, The computing power is relatively large, and there are currently two main scenarios in the car.

[Moderator]: The final shipping method of automotive electronics, the software level is two, one is to go out in the way of hardware, the other is the license charge this way to charge, now for the new forces of car manufacturing and traditional car manufacturers, can you talk about the different models of each car factory, they probably which parts are collected in the way of software, which parts are definitely sold in the region of automotive electronic hardware.

[Expert]: The software collection and hardware collection you are referring to refer to which part of the automaker can find the software and hardware to do with external suppliers, which is the case. In another case, the automaker will provide hardware, so that the software supplier only sells software, is this what it means?

[Moderator]: The approximate proportion of this, now the new forces of car manufacturing, including Xiaopeng, the future attaches great importance to software development, how many software parts will let Tier one company do development, for example, which hardware must be delivered in the traditional Tier one way, while writing the software together to deliver, which several help us analyze, mainstream manufacturers, such as BYD, Geely, Great Wall, Changan, Wei Xiaoli, Huawei, what is their sales method?

[Expert]: This matter may be easier to understand, and it is distinguished according to different hardware. For example, the same combination of cars, we call ECU, some relatively simple functions, some more complex and difficult. According to the current situation, for example, motor-related, including the fuel system in the traditional fuel vehicle, the control injector, Bosch is better at these power systems, the fuel injector, the control of this, generally speaking, the technical content is higher, some core suppliers, such as Bosch, continental products for hundreds of years, these from the current other point of view, they are still in a leading position, in this case, in order to ensure the performance of the entire car, it may be easier for the automakers to take out these functions, Or let these traditional strong suppliers, I said the strong suppliers are mainly Bosch, mainland this kind of relatively strong, traditional sense of the supplier, will let them themselves to provide me with soft and hardware products, which is not easy to let more suppliers participate, everyone to play such a controller, such as hardware to EGR, in the middle to find another software, if you cooperate if not very good, may not be a good situation. But this situation in the car machine is relatively rare, most of the cases, such as new energy, if it is a new energy, such as three electricity, battery electric drive-related, including electronic control, such as body controller, automatic driving domain controller, including my chassis, more than 90% can be made into software and hardware separation, relying on basic software, or basic software + middleware such a concept, he is separated to achieve, eighty or ninety percent are no problem, you can use this way, In this case, the trend of the automakers is more obvious, the original when we first started, for example, three or four years ago, maybe at that time it is not too good to say that a controller is taken apart, hardware to find a supplier, software to find a supplier, two to complete a controller together, three or four years ago may not be so, should be two or three years, can feel the hardware and software to take apart for bidding more and more, such as automatic driving controller, body, steering, chassis, power-related these have, There are more and more projects being taken apart to do. What are the benefits of this? More professional manufacturers, there are some manufacturers are better at doing software, some are better at doing hardware, through the basic software, through the AutoSAR set of standards to define the development process between each other, the development system is clear, as long as you do in accordance with the same system will not have any problems, so that the case is easier to take apart the entire hardware software, including the previous hardware manufacturers also have to bother to do some software implementation, they are not very good at writing software, the efficiency of writing software, the quality of their writing may not be high, According to the current situation, this is a professional software company to do, and the effect must be better.

[Moderator]: I understand that in this, in the future, the way the OEMs are purchased, unpacked and packaged, is the software bought in the form of License fees?

[Expert]: There are all, and there are all the situations I see now.

[Host]: What are the purchase methods of the depot now?

[Expert]: First of all, from the perspective of the automaker, get a project at the beginning will think, these related functions are my own or find outside suppliers to do, I think if you find an outside supplier to do it will also be divided into two situations, one is to find someone else to do, the intellectual property rights are not attributed to me, if not attributed to me, there are two situations, one is NRE, a one-time R & D cost to you, we are now encountering a situation, will design a threshold, for example, I give you a one-time R & D fee, This R & D fee in general, if the oem is more confident in its own sales, he will not talk to you about the licensing of License, I give you NRE development fees, NRE development fees may be slightly more to you, but after selling each one does not give you money, there are some, I give you NRE R & D costs are lower, just start to take money to take a little less, but after each sale, to give you 10, 20, 30, according to the different software functions will give you some payment, This mainly depends on the automaker's own strategy, and the current situation is there.

[Host]: Let's look at several car factories, such as the traditional car factories with relatively high growth rates, BYD, Great Wall, Chang'an, which way do they tend to this type of car factory?

[Expert]: At present, I understand that they tend to give the NRE fee a little bit, and then there is the license, there is the license fee, which we see more, and the cost of his initial investment can be reduced.

[Question]: What is the way the new car-making forces, including Wei Xiaoli, have adopted?

[Expert]: I am not very good at this conclusion, from the situation I see now, I feel that there is not much difference, now everyone's momentum, most of the automakers I personally, I feel that I am still willing to pay a little less in advance, and then I will pay you according to the amount of the authorized fee, so from the perspective of the automaker, the initial investment will be less.

【Question】: Another part, many car manufacturers, suppliers, including Ruichi, Desay, Chuangda, intelligent cockpit and unmanned driving are shipped in the form of hardware, can you help us specifically analyze the main downstream customer situation of these companies, including the advantages and disadvantages of supply, the main products that are good?

[Expert]: I will first talk about Desai, Desai was relatively early on to do hardware, and he is better at entertainment system related, the beginning from some simple TBOX, entertainment system, starting from this aspect, his entire company's way and method is through the entertainment system to cut in, should be about 80% of the income may be from the entertainment system, now they also call it cockpit domain, intelligent cockpit, there are different names Most of the entire output and technical capabilities around the cockpit, I am not mistaken, He is also around 2015, or around 2016 began to dabble in automatic driving, he did relatively late, automatic driving is not his own algorithm, the algorithm in automatic driving should be used in a foreign country, and a foreign one to cooperate, what kind of problem is there? He himself does not have the core algorithm of automatic driving this piece of independent intellectual property rights, the entire product iteration and update, he does not have the leading positioning in this regard, often with the supplier, such as the rhythm of the automatic driving supplier, of course, he can give his suppliers related requirements, you can optimize the algorithm in which aspect, which aspect of the update iteration, he can mention this matter, and his own core algorithm in the hands of the different, we think it will still be worse, from my personal understanding, Desai will still be stronger in the future of cockpit entertainment, because his own core technology and core capabilities are also accumulated in this regard.

In the field of automatic driving, he can use the algorithm provided by overseas suppliers, but in fact, he in this regard, I personally feel that it should be with the overall domestic trend, from the current situation, not to say that there is a particularly strong staying power in this regard, my personal feeling may not have a particularly strong staying power, because his algorithm is not self-developed, I think here can check a little, nor to say that in this case he does not make money, these are two concepts. Of course, I think it seems that starting in 2020, he will also try to do this, but from the current situation, I estimate that the effect is not so fast, this is the automatic driving algorithm, this thing can not be accumulated overnight.

Neusoft Ruichi, is also two pieces, one is the cockpit, one is automatic driving, obviously the automatic driving this piece is stronger, Neusoft Ruichi's automatic driving is from neusoft group directly to take the core capabilities over, Neusoft group to do this piece of 20 years of accumulation, from the beginning of what we said L0 level to L2 level automatic driving technology, now gradually towards L3, L4 in the doing, the entire Neusoft Ruichi, or Neusoft This system in this regard is relatively long, the algorithm is self-developed, so in this regard, The automatic driving of this piece of Neusoft Ruichi should be relatively strong. The cockpit is relatively stronger in this regard of Neusoft Group, because Neusoft Group has a traditional accumulation in the cockpit, including audio-visual entertainment, reverse interaction of car and machines, Neusoft Group has done a relatively long time in this regard, and has done more than 20 years, Neusoft Ruichi in this regard, now cut into the car cloud collaboration, can be considered as the partner role of the entire wisdom cockpit, Neusoft Ruichi can now also do a relatively strong car cloud collaboration, and Honda has a joint venture company, called Haina Xinsi, specifically for Japan Honda to do car machinery, Including the entire car cloud collaborative system, this is neusoft Ruichi subsidiary to do, and now it is also pushed away on the Honda Clarity 3.0 platform, and now Honda's new car uses the system made by Neusoft Ruichi, so this piece should be stronger, Neusoft + Ruichi two together, in the cockpit can have a relatively strong competitiveness, but I personally feel that the automatic driving this piece should be the strongest.

[Moderator]: Downstream customers above, including orders above, the entire market share because Desay based on the NVIDIA platform to do development, the next few years to see, we see the overall order growth rate is very good, there are a lot of factors with the chip on this side, there are customer structure this piece, Desay electric vehicles those sell good platform more, Neusoft those car factories, we feel that the future stamina is not so sufficient, do not know how experts you think.

[Expert]: Neusoft from my personal point of view to say that commercial vehicles do more, passenger cars gradually in the beginning of the amount, but not as much as the amount of commercial vehicles, the original commercial vehicles have regulations, follow the regulations to do, so commercial vehicles on the automatic driving this piece of more, this is what I just said, Desai although there is no core algorithm, but it will not necessarily affect his remote sale of automatic driving, these are two concepts, we speak from the technical point of view of the industry, Maybe we think they are not their own core algorithm, but it does not affect it to sell money, Desai because he is doing hardware, from my understanding, he may be stronger in this aspect of the industrial chain cooperation, Desay in the field of passenger cars shipments are relatively large, the current Xiaopeng seems to be on the PN equipped with Desai.

[Host]: Let's go to see if we don't consider commercial vehicles, first consider the future passenger cars, if we go to the next three years or so, by 2025 this time we go to see, is desai has occupied a large enough market share of passenger cars, divided into several products to see, first look at the smart cabin, Desai You estimate how much share of the whole market, Neusoft, including Chuangda in the cockpit in the future What proportion of division, how about unmanned driving?

[Expert]: Let me first talk about the automatic driving this piece, automatic driving from my point of view, do not think that Desai has the lead, from the drafting of regulations, including the market reputation, in fact, I personally feel that Neusoft should be slightly stronger, Neusoft after all, has been doing more than 20 years. There is another one, Chuangda does not say, Chuangda in this regard belongs to the beginning, may not see the relevant competition shadow of automatic driving, but the car machine, the cockpit I personally understand, may be the next few years will be the situation of three points of the world, my personal feelings, Desay and Soft and Chuangda, from the perspective of the amount of the market, I think the future should be three points of the world.

[Moderator]: Let's go upstream, if for the smart cockpit level, Qualcomm in the next few years, including the 8155 we discussed, their market share may account for how much share of all models? The intelligent cockpit is developed based on the 8155 platform.

[Expert]: I am not very sure about this, but from the current situation, it should mainly depend on the future chip production capacity, I personally understand that 8155 is a relatively strong platform, including the current cockpit will aim at this direction to do, from my understanding, I think 8155 future shipments will be relatively large, but specifically what can be accounted for, I am not very good at evaluating this matter.

[Moderator]: The unmanned domain is basically monopolized by NVIDIA's Orin entire platform, and in this regard, it is not Desai that has a strong first-mover advantage.

[Expert]: From the current situation, automatic driving is actually divided into several aspects, let's say so, in the real sense, if automatic driving wants to be better than who, here on the one hand I think is better than the hardware society, just like you said, Nvidia's Orin platform, on the other hand or look at the software's algorithm and software implementation capabilities, I personally think that NVIDIA's hardware platform is indeed stronger, or the current situation, I don't know if the future Qualcomm can have a more powerful hardware performance, But from the software level, my personal understanding, to a large extent, or to see whose software algorithm is good, whose application scenarios are more adapted, who has more experience in research and development, I personally understand that it is from this point of view, just like we used to look at mobile phones, from the perspective of simple hardware parameters, xiaomi may be higher than Apple's hardware parameter indicators, but the effect of real use is not necessarily good, so NVIDIA's Orin platform really says how much role it can play, In fact, it also depends on the accumulation and ability of the software, which is my personal opinion.

[Moderator]: Is it because of the driverless future, including the new forces of car manufacturing and the great differentiation of major car manufacturers, is not that all the software in this piece is monopolized by the car factory, and other suppliers, such as Tier one, are just for a board.

[Expert]: I think it is not so, the accumulation of automatic driving itself is relatively deep, many automakers do not have the accumulation of suppliers, I think in the long run, maybe the core technology will still be mastered in the hands of Tier one who has been engaged in this direction for a long time, and the automakers can do it, there is a problem here, whether the automakers can really take this piece as their core business, in fact, this is a very critical point.

[Moderator]: But you just said that including Chang'an, they have set up separate departments, including a lot of teams, and this is only a matter of time accumulation.

[Expert]: This still depends on the performance of what they really do, from the current short-term point of view, I think Tier one is stronger in these aspects.

[Moderator]: This short-term may be nearly three years, or five years is more difficult to form a strong voice of the automaker.

[Expert]: I think that the automakers in this regard, may not be very strong in 5-10 years, I contact a lot of automakers he wants to grasp too many things, the energy is very very dispersed, in fact, not as good as these companies that specialize in automatic driving and specialize in software technology, in this regard, the real investment and accumulation, and there is no depth of these core suppliers.

Moderator: I understand. I believe that there will be a lot of division of labor and cooperation in the future, including the existence of many suppliers, including our current look at unmanned driving, cockpit, will be divided into many parts, unmanned driving inside there may be perception, control, is not the future of the depot is to list each part separately for suppliers to do, will not be in this way of division of labor cooperation.

[Expert]: I personally say that this is not the case, we say automatic driving, whether you say the perception layer, the decision-making layer, the execution layer, here does not rule out a point, simply take the execution out alone, the execution of this piece may only be through some simple signals, control the steering, control the brake throttle, do some actions, and the algorithm of the core of automatic driving is irrelevant, the core of automatic driving is actually the perception decision- and the most important thing is to do a variety of data fusion.

If you don't go in the direction of the domain controller, the automatic driving basically can't land, the reason is this, he will analyze and integrate a lot of data collected through radar and through the camera, first of all, these two pieces must be done by a supplier to do well. There is another one, these pieces must be placed on the same controller to do well, but the execution of this piece may be written separately, this piece may not have much impact.

[Question]: I would like to ask you, Neusoft has more ADAS on commercial vehicles, and I would like to ask him how many units he can get out of commercial vehicles in 2021, if in terms of quantity.

[Expert]: The amount of this may only give some estimates, such as the fixed point signed in these two years, which may be hundreds of thousands of such levels.

[Question]: Hundreds of thousands of amounts, right?

[Expert]: It may be like this, the specific number is indeed not easy to estimate, it is entirely based on the sales of the automaker's car.

[Question]: Is there a big difference between the price of the ADAS on commercial vehicles, the autonomous cockpit, including his, and the price on the passenger car?

[Expert]: The price of commercial vehicles should be higher, on the one hand, the position on commercial vehicles is more advanced, and generally speaking, the leading market will set its own price slightly higher. The second point is from the perspective of commercial vehicles, after all, the shipment of commercial vehicles is not as large as that of passenger cars, this does not refer to the automatic driving controller, refers to the shipment of the entire car, the sales volume is not as large as that of passenger cars, in this case, from the perspective of the automaker, relatively speaking, it can accept the price of each car, and the cost may be more shared, and the price we put in many commercial vehicles is also relatively high, so it can share some more costs.

【Question】: What level can this price reach if it is high? Let's take ADAS as an example, on commercial vehicles.

[Expert]: I really can't say this, I think dozens, hundreds are possible, or look at the specific, how many functions to open, because from the ADAS point of view, in fact, he has a lot of functional points of the product.

[Question]: You just said that Neusoft Ruichi cooperated with Honda to do automatic driving, and some models have been put on automatic driving software, I would like to ask, how does he cooperate with Honda to make a profit? One-time development fee, how much does each car add or what model?

[Expert]: Now there is a licensing fee, each car has a price recovery, the early stage will be charged a certain NRE, research and development costs.

[Question]: Do you have an estimated amount of the specific amount? It doesn't have to be particular.

[Expert]: I really don't have a good estimate of this.

[Question]: For example, the one-time development fee may be tens of millions, and the licensing fee may be hundreds, thousands or what level of a car? You don't know about that, do you?

[Expert]: I really don't know how much money each can be apportioned, but the R & D cost is generally a few million, 10 million may not be so big, but millions are generally there, millions are there, this kind of research and development costs. How much money each one will charge is not very clear.

[Question]: I also want to ask, according to these big Tier one manufacturers, they divide the car into five domains, power domain, cockpit domain, chassis domain, these domains are now Neusoft all domains can do? There are still domains that cannot be done.

[Expert]: We can look at one by one, first of all, the power, cockpit, bracket can do these, a full set of capabilities are there, in the chassis related above, chassis-related software can provide a part, the chassis can not do all, the software provides a part, the chassis hardware should not have much accumulation in this regard, from the current situation, in addition to the chassis other aspects are OK, there is no problem.

[Question]: If you look at it from the perspective of technical training, which is the highest?

[Expert]: Technically, I think automatic driving and cockpit may belong to a better, the power domain also has, the power domain is rui chi after the establishment of the key investment, the cockpit and automatic driving is very early on, has done more than 20 years of things, relative to the lecture cabin is the accumulation of automatic driving, the understanding of the industry is deeper, the power-related part of the rui chi side has also been done for six or seven years, relatively speaking, there is also a certain accumulation.

[Question]: It is understandable that these self-driving and cockpit domains may be more expensive, and the price of power and chassis is relatively lower, because he does not do hardware.

[Expert]: The power is like this, the chassis should not have this hardware ability, the power Neusoft is there, of course, this power is mainly on new energy vehicles, the design of new energy vehicles of hardware power related, such as electromagnetic external force system, motor controller, this Neusoft is there, including Rui Chi and Japan Denso established a joint venture company is specifically to do electric drive, this aspect is there, but the traditional, such as the engine design of fuel vehicles, this is not, the traditional transmission design is not.

[Question]: I have no problem, thank you expert, thank you very much.

[Question]: Please ask you a question, I heard you say that in the future, 80% or 90% of the domain control has the form of software and hardware separation, I don't know if the previous refers to the large-scale software separation of the domain control.

[Expert]: Yes, the software separation in this area is the most risky, because when the domain control proposed this concept, the concept of software-defined automobiles has been more recognized, and when doing domain controllers, it has been aimed at soft and hard separation.

[Question]: What concept does these eighty or ninety refer to? In the future, is it that 80% or 90% of the new cars are separated from software and hardware to tender the model?

[Expert]: I said eighty or ninety percent is the design of the domain controller, most of them are towards the soft and hard separation to do, this soft and hard separation according to the current situation, since it is a soft and hard separation, he will take the software and hardware out of the bidding separately, this possibility is the largest, hardware manufacturers and software manufacturers are not the same difficulty, there is still a big difference, once the concept of software separation deep into the overall decision-making level of the automaker, there will be more soft and hard separation of domain controller design, At this time, it must be hardware manufacturers and software manufacturers performing their duties, respectively, according to their different capabilities and dimensions of the corresponding supply, we understand that it must be such a momentum.

[Question]: Is the hardware side equivalent to the mobile phone used to be? Take the chip board of various components, boxes, similar to doing mobile phones.

[Expert]: In fact, it can be equated with seeing the tower, hardware, especially domain controllers often have to put multiple traditional, separate each different function on the same domain controller, this first requires their own hardware TOPP adaptability is very strong, such as you are through the model of looking, the model of order, the model of Ethernet can communicate, the domain controller in their own computing power is getting stronger and stronger, more and more like a small computer, or a small functional machine, the above interface is particularly complete, This is especially easy to package when you package it into different product forms.

[Question]: The software side to charge according to the amount, this function is almost twenty or thirty, according to the function to charge, this function is to follow the chip factory, chip factory he to develop this function, put on the platform to give the market to choose, or the car factory itself to find a development company to help him write the algorithm, which end do you think this model may be close to?

[Expert]: I think it is still the automakers themselves to find software manufacturers to help him do this aspect of the function, the specific function items, in fact, more of the situation should be the automakers to make the final decision.

[Question]: I understand that the hardware has been implanted, the chip and sensor hardware have been implanted, and how many algorithm software functions are needed, let the main engine factory choose itself.

[Expert]: Yes, in fact, at this point, I personally think it is more obvious, even if it is a traditional automaker, when he is developing in this regard, he is actually moving in this direction, the design of the software at the beginning is actually their own decision-making, what functions of your car machine are defined by each automaker.

[Question]: Is this kind of license FATE price reduction more severe?

[Expert]: Price reduction from my understanding, the general trend, must be gradually reduced in price, the reason is that this function sells more copies, such as what kind of quotation I sell when I sell 100,000 sets, sell 200,000, 300,000 when there will generally be ladder quotations, the cost of the unit is getting lower and lower, if you set this from a simple function, but this function it is to upgrade, For example, the 1.0 version may sell 10 yuan a unit, 2.0 may cost 30 yuan a unit, the 2.0 version is more competitive than the 1.0 version, but also let the main engine factory show its own car machine is stronger, regardless of performance performance or reverse interaction performance, in short, the product state is not the same, the automaker will be based on different high and low configuration models, such as low-end models, for a long time will use some cheaper algorithms and cheaper functions, the high-end may gradually switch to some more advanced functions earlier, but more advanced functions mean more expensive.

[Question]: Finally, I would like to ask about the pattern, in this mode, the Desai from hard to soft model is better or Neusoft is soft, which one do you think can come out more?

[Expert]: Personally, I think Neusoft is better, from two directions, Neusoft sells two forms, one is soft and hardware sales, one is that he can simply sell algorithms, sell his own software, cooperate with some hardware manufacturers, and do projects together, which from my understanding, he has more channels. Desai is no way to sell software alone, because his core algorithm is not their own, often are soft and hardware to sell, in this case, for Desai, I think the cost of this aspect can be controlled is smaller, but Neusoft relatively controllable cost is greater, their own controllable cost in this area is greater, can be decided into soft and hardware, can be decided into i in a project with a hardware manufacturer bound, do another customer, this optional room is greater, so I think from a long-term point of view, Neusoft will be better.

[Question]: The three points of the cockpit you mentioned earlier are Desai, Neusoft, and Chuangda, which refers to the hardware of the domain control or the algorithm software inside.

[Expert]: or the software part, I personally understand that the next 5-10 years, the hardware is gradually getting cheaper and cheaper, while the homogenization of the hardware is getting stronger and stronger, more and more obvious, like the mobile phone we are using now, all the mobile phones look almost the same, may be one of the first, or some of the key software features, or the performance of the software let you choose, this mobile phone is more comfortable to use, in fact, the future of the car machine is also like this, Hardware is something that can hardly be said to have a very, very large rapid iteration and change, but software is different, and software can be very, very flexible with demand.

[Question]: I am very grateful for these questions.

[Question]: Let me ask you about the Standard NeuSAR standard of Rui chi you just talked about, is this a set of standards similar to AutoSAR? Or based on a set of applications.

[Expert]: It is a software implemented according to the AutoSAR standard.

【Question】: Is there more software of the same kind that implements software according to the AutoSAR standard?

[Expert]: From the market we see that there are several competitors, but Neusoft has several obvious advantages in this regard, the first point of advantage, AutoSAR's standard is divided into two standards, we call him a classic platform and a senior platform, from the intuitive feeling, Neusoft is actually the only one among the current competitors who can do the commercial landing of these two products at the same time, and the number of commercial customer cases of these two products is also relatively large, such a supplier. In addition, Neusoft Ruichi in the basic software, just said that the AutoSAR basic software above the team size is also the largest, because it is the core business sector of Neusoft Ruichi, so the investment in this area is also relatively large, relatively speaking, in the overall end of the future stone, from the current point of view, at least in the domestic competitors, it should be the best situation.

[Question]: So he is now in terms of applications, is it a little more cockpit applications or a little more autonomous driving applications?

[Expert]: He has two platforms, the classic platform around automatic driving, including the power domain, chassis domain these will have, he also has another platform, two sets of standard Neusoft are doing, another set of standards is used in the cockpit, there is another set of automatic driving will also be used, automatic driving will generally use two sets of standards, automatic driving is divided into control-related, decision-related, control-related is generally used to relatively traditional standards, AutoSAR put forward a little earlier standards, If it is a decision-related new standard, called the adaptive platform standard, it is divided into two sets of standards.

[Question]: The decoupling you just talked about, is NeuSAR a bit similar to middleware?

[Expert]: In fact, the concept of middleware is relatively large, if you look at the entire automotive software, AutoSAR or NeuSAR is also part of the middleware, the actual role of middleware is to decouple some of the business logic software at the upper level and the distance hardware driver and operating system at the bottom layer. Middleware is now also relatively hot, the various OEMs are also more recognized, they are now doing, whether it is the third generation platform or the fourth generation platform, may be different OEMs go at different speeds, but in fact, they will use the unified concept of middleware in this regard, will do this design, of course, they will also use autoSAR this basic software.

[Question]: The last question with you to ask, you just talked about the soft and hard separation trend, ADAS, now use more Mobile L, he soft and hard is considered to be integrated, now the entire market share is relatively high, this piece will not appear soft and hard separation trend, the market share of separate manufacturers will be larger and larger.

[Expert]: In my personal opinion, the separation of soft and hard should be larger in the future market share, and the soft and hard cannot be separated, and I always think that his shipping method and shipping road are relatively narrower.

[Question]: Okay, thank you expert.

[Question]: Experts, please advise, Joyson Electronics is also doing cockpits, it seems to be jointly doing cockpit domains with Huawei, doing things that are somewhat similar to Desai, what do you think of Joyson Electronics?

[Expert]: I tell you the truth, this contact is not particularly much, not very vocal, but what I see from the market, he is currently a latecomer, not as good as the traditional We say Neusoft, Desai.

[Question]: The automatic driving domain and the cockpit domain should be integrated in the future, from this trend point of view?

[Expert]: There is a possibility of integration, in fact, I personally think that the possibility of integration is only half and half, from a technical point of view, automatic driving consumes more computing power, and the part of automatic driving is also more demanding of the level of public safety, the market's requirements for public safety are not high, from this point of view, his integration may only be in order to make the computing power can be better used, to avoid a chip with strong computing power in the cockpit can not be used, but from the perspective of the public safety of the entire car, from the perspective of software It may be difficult to integrate in the short term, otherwise it will involve different levels of public safety, which is not allowed to be put together according to current automotive standards.

[Question]: Looking a little further in the future, whether the hardware is integrated, the software may still be independent.

[Expert]: Hardware fusion is actually easier to do, itself we say that the next generation of domain controller changes, domain controllers are followed by a central centralized controller, in this case it may be more like a central super plan center, the possibility of hardware integration is very large, but the software is not excluded, with the regulations, with the expansion of software technology, there may be changes, but I think it may not be so fast.

[Question]: Regarding the construction of the car, now, the future direction is basically determined, to the architecture of the central device, this industry can reach an agreement, right?

[Expert]: I think we can reach an agreement, and at present everyone is generally unanimous.

[Question]: If under this architecture, the hardware in our car in the future is now used a lot because the MCU is used, will the controller of the MCU slowly become less and less in the future, and the controller will become more and more concentrated, will there be such a situation?

[Expert]: The controller will be a gradually concentrated situation, but this MCU will still have, take automatic driving as an example, your perception and decision-making, these algorithms are all done with SOC, but there will be some execution at the bottom, such as your steering control, brakes, throttle, these are MCU to do, from the current point of view, should still be a coexistence of a situation, MCU will not say slowly disappear in the car, unlikely, because the MCU embedded system, implementation is very very strong, In this case, we say brakes, if the difference is 0.1 seconds, the car may run out 10m more, which will still have a great impact on the performance of the whole car, and I personally understand that it will still exist.

[Question]: I saw a data before, some of the subsequent end-of-the-line control may be handed over to the gateway, in addition to the centralized controller, there are some gateways at the edge that will be close to the control.

[Expert]: We call it a regional controller, that is, a local controller, generally speaking, it may not be a gateway, I personally speak, the gateway is typical in the body, each local area or each area may have a signal leopard print special hair, all levels of the MCU, we feel that it is more called ZCU.

[Question]: From your point of view, the MCU will be long-term, and the most end-end side still depends on the MCU to do some real-time control, right?

[Expert]: Yes, my understanding is this.

[Question]: The number of MCUs, now an ECU may require an MCU, right? The decrease in the number of ECUs does not mean that the number of MCUs will decline overall, can we say so?

[Expert]: I think in the long run, the number of MCUs should go down, less.

[Question]: Thank you expert.

[Moderator]: Thank you experts, but also thank you investors, today's experts talked in great detail, we Tianfeng electronics team is also very optimistic about the development of automotive electronics, we also officially issued a neusoft report last night, you can pay more attention to the back. We'll stop here for today's meeting.

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