Hello, childhood

Zhou Yijun: Hello everyone, welcome to "Hello, Childhood", I am Zhou Yijun. Today we have invited two guests to talk about Finnish education. The first one, you have seen from various other programs, she is teacher Li Meijin, she is a professor and graduate tutor of Chinese Min Public Security University, she was originally engaged in the study of criminal psychology and adolescent psychological problems, and now everyone likes to ask her questions about education, welcome Teacher Li.

Li Meijin: Hello.

Zhou Yijun: The other is our teacher Chen Qiuju, who is a Chinese teacher from Leyang Primary School in Zhongtian Town, Lezhi County, Sichuan, and then Teacher Chen Xiuju is particularly difficult, she has been teaching in this school for 12 years.

Chen Qiuju: Right.

Zhou Yijun: You are actually called "the most beautiful rural teacher" by everyone, what do you think of this nickname?

Chen Qiuju: Because everyone may think that it is not easy for a post-90s to work for 12 years, and then how can I work for so many years, and then have been in our school, maybe everyone thinks it is called this, at that time, not everyone likes to say what is the most beautiful, so they added one to me.

Zhou Yijun: Yes, everything is called the most beautiful now.

Chen Qiuju: Right.

Zhou Yijun: In fact, I don't think it matters what the title is, it is really you over there, in the rural teacher position for many years, I had a communication with Teacher Chen Qiuju before, she told me a story I was particularly moved, she felt that for rural children, the most important thing is that their horizons are not broad enough, because he did not have the opportunity to see the world.

At that time, she said that they were learning a text, and then talked about the sea, and then the child asked her what the sea looked like, they did not have the opportunity to see, and then Teacher Chen Qiuju went on a trip by herself, took a photo to show the children what the sea looked like, and I heard a special touch.

Chen Qiuju: Yes, rural children, because we don't have a sea in Sichuan, he doesn't know what the sea looks like in his eyes, maybe your text will describe it very well, but he has no way to imagine or can't see, those pictures on the Internet are there, but he doesn't have that kind of personal experience, he thinks my teacher went, I told them what the child looked like, the teacher went to see, he thought my teacher to see the sea must be like that.

Zhou Yijun: And then when you show them those photos, how do they react?

Chen Qiuju: Very excited, wow, and then the whole class made this sound, I also want to go, I want to go to these places when I grow up, he has a vision for the future, I want to see what the outside world is like.

Li Meijin: I think that many people in our current education seem to be trapped in it, such as teachers, parents, students, I see a lot of very anxious parents, think how their children enter a key school, but I think people have ignored the original purpose of education and its meaning, so I think we lack a rational concept now.

In fact, you just said to look at the sea, the sea I think looking at itself is a view, then the sea can also give us a certain idea of the heart, such as what it represents. I think our current concept is actually often easy to get caught in front of the eyes, that is, what you see, but the things inside are farther away, that is to say, we live a little farther, for example, when we live, many people rarely think about the problem of death in life and death, but if you really understand the problem of death, your life can be considered to be understood.

This is a matter of philosophy, and reason is a kind of rational thinking. So I think our education is also like this, what is the original meaning of your education, this I think we are now a lot of people are ignoring, so I think what we lack is an idea of something, and I think Finland is particularly prominent in this issue.

Zhou Yijun: Yes, the question you said is particularly interesting, two days ago a parent asked me, I think this question, as far as you just said, it seems that everyone must ask, but it seems that when I ask a question, I feel that I can't answer it, and he asked me what is the fundamental purpose of education? I was really stunned.

Li Meijin: Because I studied philosophy, it is very simple for us to talk about the history of the development of philosophy, that is, three steps, the first is nature, and the second is society. That is to say, the early history of philosophy is what the world is, composed of water, earth, and air.

Then the second step is society, what is going on in this society, and we begin to recognize such an environment of human activity, such a system of each other, literature, and so on. Then the third step comes to the self, which is to know the heart, such as the existence of nothingness represented by Sartre and so on.

In fact, the child's growth process is also like this, he first knows the outside world in the process of growing up, and then the child is small, so he approaches the land, he likes to play with mud or something. Then the second step as he grew up, he began to find that dealing with problems between people and people is more troublesome, he began to be confused, classmate relationship, teacher relationship, and then adulthood When we encounter troubles in our work, we will think about what is going on with me, so the development process of people should be from the outside to parallel, and then to the heart.

Our education should actually be smooth with it, that is to say, let the children first know the outside world and understand nature. So in the past, we lived in bungalows and did not have this problem in the countryside, and now this problem is particularly obvious when it comes to urbanization.

Li Meijin: Yes, indeed, and the better the school in many places now, the more concentrated it is, so I think that like a rural school, it is more unique in this regard.

Chen Qiuju: Actually, I also want to talk about this topic, which I discovered this year. I think teacher Li just said that children in big cities may be exposed to nature and have a particularly small understanding of nature. But I found that in the first half of this year, I gave the children a picture book, and that picture book called "Flower Mother-in-Law" was particularly good, so I asked them if there were some pea flowers and beard flowers in it, and I asked them if they recognized it, and the whole class said they didn't know that thing.

Zhou Yijun: Even children in the countryside don't know.

Chen Qiuju: Yes, but I feel particularly surprised, I think I think I think rural children, because I am rural, I think these rice, corn, these very common crops they should know very well, I found that these children actually do not know. The kids in my class were in the third grade, and the first half of this year was the second grade, and I thought they should know each other, but I was particularly surprised by this performance.

Zhou Yijun: In the past, the children you taught were known, but now they don't know?

Chen Qiuju: In the past, some children knew more than they do now, because now the children are very small, in the second grade. And then I thought no, I can't go to my class, I'll take them out, take them to the field around us, and we'll take the picture book class in the field. Then because it was the season when there were pea flowers in the soil, all the bean blossoms bloomed, and then the rape flowers, I went out to tell them what this was, what that was, they felt very fresh, no one told them before, I found out how our rural children are like this now.

Zhou Yijun: Why?

Chen Qiuju: I later analyzed it, now the countryside is all left-behind children in the countryside, parents work outside, in fact, the labor force is very profitable now, their monthly wages are actually much higher than our wages, grandparents, grandparents and grandmothers at home with them, they are particularly pampered, generation-skipping education is particularly pampered, do not let him do this, do not let him do that, you do not have to do farm work, you do not do anything, you do not do those, it is particularly special doting.

It's this phenomenon, and then maybe there's no chance, no one tells them we're going to get to know nature, we're going to get to know this crop, it doesn't seem to matter to us, it's just that grandparents are fed and clothed, and then you go to school, and then there's no accident.

Zhou Yijun: You use positive understanding, because Chinese regard the matter of reading books as particularly high, and everything is inferior, only reading is high. For example, if you have a child at home to go to the college entrance examination, the first sentence of the parents is to do nothing, you are studying, everyone thinks it may be good for you, you do not contact with nature, that is, you do not go outside to the wind and sun, you sit in the room to learn right, this is your way out, but in fact in nature they can learn a lot of things.

Li Meijin: Yes, for example, a very simple thing for you is the sky. When I was young, once my mother led me to a door visit, and it was very late to come back, and I was very scared, because it was very dark and I was going home. My mother probably saw it and started talking to me, and my mother said you see that there are cowherd weavers on it, and I looked up at the time, and it was dark, except for the stars, where there were cowherd weavers.

Then my mother told me that you couldn't find which one was the Milky Way, and I was listening to it when he spoke, but I was very impressed with the sky that night. So I was wondering how many children now have the opportunity for mom and dad to talk to him about the sky. And later I found that many parents and children go to chat with these children, and then they are very thoughtful people.

Zhou Yijun: Or maybe later told everyone that we all talked about the sky when we were young.

Li Meijin: Yes, is it because it gives you an endless, boundless feeling, and then it will evoke a lot of reverie in you, and then tell you the Milky Way, you obviously can't see the river, so you have to find it. So I was thinking, that is, there are many natural things, but our parents may have ignored this problem, and we have ignored this problem in education.

Chen Qiuju: And it is also very related to the company of his parents, he may not remember what happened in their lives, but he was particularly impressed by that scene, so now I am assigning summer vacation homework to my children, often I have one item, I said to go with my parents to listen to the sound of the rain, go to the night sky to see the stars, observe the stars, this is what I assigned to them, it is a homework is also a task, let my parents accompany them to go around, Or follow Mom and Dad to farm work and show me pictures.

Zhou Yijun: What you said reminds me of a lot of things, which are particularly interesting. Including you say this to see the sky, because they say that all animals look downwards, in ancient Greek man is called an animal that looks up, only man looks up to the sky, and animals look up to the ground.

And I also watched one that day, and they said what is the difference between animals and people, that is, animals only understand the environment, on the things around them, and people understand the world, that is, you say that things that are very far away he will have cognition, so this is the difference between people and animals.

You just talked about listening to the rain and so on, and then including looking at the sky, I remembered that one day when I was at home, it was also a heavy rainstorm, and the school was closed, and then I called my child, and I said let's go out for a walk, because neither of them went to school, and we went out in our raincoats. Later we went to the inside of the mountain and saw a very large lizard lying on the road, and then it was very peculiar, its lips were pink that day, and you felt incredible, how could there be such a thing lying on the road, and then the three of us were looking at it in a daze, and then in the rain, watching there.

Later I thought that my child might grow up and he would remember the moment when the three of us watched a very peculiar scene there. In fact, he didn't need to remember what kind of animal this lizard was that day, it was this amphibian, winter does not hibernate, this knowledge is not important, I think that moment may be very impressive to him.

I was thinking I was in Finland, and what impressed me when I was shooting it was that I thought they would have to say the correct names of the plants when they took the kids to see them, because those correct names are very difficult to pronounce in Latin, Chinese sometimes I don't really know the names of many flowers and plants.

They told me that the younger children in Finland, if they are in elementary school, they don't need you to pronounce the correct name, he thinks that the child himself smells what he imagines to be a name, it is particularly interesting, he said that you can call it yourself. In the upper grades, they also have forest classes in high school, and he really can divide names.

Later, I once walked with my son and the two of us, and then on the way back, the child was naturally interested in flowers and plants, it turned out that my idea would say that I took out my mobile phone and gave him an APP, I might first scan what the name of this flower is, and then you give me to remember, and then I tested you later, and then I didn't do this, because I thought I might do this a few more times and he was not interested in flowers and plants.

I asked him to say you smell it yourself, you tell me what it's called, the child says it's called pee, what can a child call it, I say that, that leaf is called a striped leaf. Then I found something very strange, and then he saw other flowers and plants, and he would say that this one was a bit like that striped flower, but it might have a stripe bigger than it, or its leaves might be bigger than it. It tasted a bit like a pee flower, but it was different, and he began to compare it himself, and the boundaries of his exploration began to develop from the thing he named.

There are many people who say that where people's desire for knowledge comes from, that is, to something that you do not understand, and when you understand this feeling, you will master it, and you will have this pleasure, that is, you will feel very happy. You can see in Denmark, in fact, it will be a little similar to Finland, do they attach great importance to this kind of thing from life in Their Nordic education?

Chen Qiuju: Yes, this empirical practice of life is particularly important. We were talking about a teacher who gave us a lesson and she had a three-year-old grandson who didn't live with her parents. Grandparents would not live with his children.

Zhou Yijun: Yes, they don't live together.

Chen Qiuju: They will all live alone, and her grandmother's house may be two or three hundred meters away from his grandson's house. Anyway, one day, in my opinion, three years old may be very small, go out must be very worried, one day he found that her three-year-old grandson called him by himself, she must have usually watched adults call, she called him herself, she said Grandma I want to come to your house to play, and this one thing his children do not know, is a situation that does not know, she called, her grandmother did not say let your parents send it, then how do you come over?

Then she thought to herself, she said I could come by myself, and then Grandma said you would come by yourself. All this adults do not know, she took a small bench, three years old is very small, can not ring the doorbell, she said how I want to go to my grandmother's house, I have to take a small bench first, she went many times he remembered the way, and then she walked over and took a small bench, and then went to ring the doorbell herself and walked to her grandmother's house.

Zhou Yijun: Take a small bench out. When I was in Finland they said something, he said they were very surprised that they had American friends coming, and they said how your children came from school, five or six years old children, three years old I don't know, five or six years old children go home by themselves, they hang a key around their necks, I said we also have a key around our necks when we were young.

Li Meijin: Not now. He probably lives not far from the school.

Zhou Yijun: Yes, they said that the best school is the nearest, not particularly far away.

Li Meijin: This is not the case in China now, but now our education has begun to focus on the recent admission. But it is true that in many parts of China in these years, because he chose a school, coupled with the development of automobiles, many families are picked up.

Chen Qiuju: Yes, and now even our villages are basically picked up. Grandparents will also come to pick you up, when school is over, he is not like when we were children carrying school bags on their own, there are some farther, and then grandparents pick up, he has to walk for an hour or two. There are also some grandparents who are not at ease, think that there are many cars on the road, the countryside is now the same, many cars are various, and then they feel that it is not safe, and they have to come to pick up.

Zhou Yijun: But there is one important point that you just mentioned, that is, he has a lot of things, and the child has his own thinking, that is, what to do in each link. I often feel that our child sometimes has a lot of knowledge points, but you have to string together a thing, from A to B, that is, how do you do a thing, how should this thinking be cultivated?

Li Meijin: I have more contact with students above the university level. At that time, I heard a lot about the college entrance examination, that is, the college entrance examination is the only fair way, and then many foreign scores are much higher than Beijing why not be admitted, and then Beijing scores so low can still go to college. But based on my knowledge of students, I found a problem, that is, although the students in Beijing did not score high, they had a lot of problems.

He asked a lot of questions, and then he thought very actively, and this is the well-informed question just talked about, and this one from the countryside is not from the countryside, or the children who come from some places where we talk about studying hard, I found that they have almost no problems. Later, I found that the more economically underdeveloped we are, the more students will be concentrated in schools and study for the college entrance examination, so they may be trapped in the school from junior high school or even from elementary school, and then all the way to high school.

When they are admitted to college, so you see a lot of the crimes we have studied, for example, many of the children cheated by the MLM group are rural college students, and there are very few urban college students, why? He may have more eyes, more knowledge, and more listening. So now I think that a child from an underdeveloped area has a narrower vision, not because he doesn't have the opportunity to touch nature, he doesn't have a chance, just for the college entrance examination.

Chen Qiuju: Because I teach elementary school, and then I feel that our children have no light in their eyes. How to say, just like Teacher Li just said, maybe I will go to learn for this knowledge, I study hard, I study hard, I go out, because adults will say that you read is the only way out, how, they will not think about why I want to learn this thing, understand what is good for me.

Li Meijin: So when she said this, I thought of the problem of the concept of education that I just said, that is, where is the meaning of our education, you will find that in the end the children you have worked so hard to cultivate seem to know a lot, they have high scores, but their most basic survival, some even can not cook, to the market will not choose dishes, of course, there are small things, the most important thing, just now when you said I was thinking about a problem.

I once went on a business trip to a place in northern Shaanxi, and they took me to see a big house built by a rich man, and then when we came out of Yan'an, we went to that place called Yangjialing, and then that place was actually all mountains, a very poor place, and when the car was driving, I thought how can this place be inhabited, just this thought. But when the car came into that place, I was very surprised, it was a very good house built in that place, it was a big row of Japanese, then European, then Chinese.

Later they talked about how they had rammed this dirt into such a large piece of land, and then the cave behind the house was hollowed out and it was all a grid, a grid, that is, grain. The rich man collected grain every year, and then waited until the famine, for example, in a year when there was no rain, and if he did not owe enough grain, he opened a warehouse to release grain, so he could make the population of this place equal. Then there was a problem, this rich man had three sons at that time, and some of these three sons went to Germany, and where they went, and anyway, there was one in the United States, and one in Shanghai.

But after the three sons finished earning money, the design of the house was designed by them, and then this investment. Later, they told me how this land was leveled, and he put the soil in northern Shaanxi and the previous kind of rice, and then the soil was very sticky, and they rammed it artificially, and rammed the land. I was thinking about a question, many of us now have left after the exam, no one said to go back to build his hometown, he built he did not know how to build, why?

For example, he studied finance and economics, he studied computers, he can't use it when he goes back to his hometown, but you look at him, I just said that this rich man has learned what to make, and what to learn, he knows how to get the soil in his place, and then how to put the grain, so the house he built for his father has a continuous development, and you see that he understands where he grew up.

So I think this is the meaning of human life, that is, you grew up in a place, you should at least understand your water and soil, how to make it better and better, when you have the conditions, qualifications, you first make your own place of life better, I think this is the meaning of education. So I say why Finland is good at this education, it first lets you know a natural environment in which you live, rather than saying that you go to the books every day, to learn the knowledge in the books, and after learning it is broken. Anyway, I feel that many of our current college students who have been admitted to big cities can't go back to his hometown.

Chen Qiuju: He doesn't want to go back either.

Li Meijin: Yes, he didn't want to go back because he couldn't find his own place there.

Zhou Yijun: He doesn't want to go back is his concept doesn't want to go back, he thinks that life in the big city is good.

Li Meijin: He did not know his hometown since he was a child, which is the most lacking thing in our education now.

Zhou Yijun: Like there was a dad in Finland at that time, I visited him, he was a relatively high-income dad, that is, finance, you said. He said that because he had also been in contact with these chinese college students, he said that Chinese college students read a lot of books and had a lot of knowledge, but how to apply this knowledge, he felt that some links were missing.

There is also a passage in our film that can't be cut in because of the limited capacity, he said, he said that we Finns must have some things in our home that I made myself, and he said that in my house, there are small Trojan horses that I made myself when I was a child, and I will now make some handmade things, and he said that my children also have to do these things. Later, I found that other Finnish families are very common, and they must have something they make themselves.

In Japan, too, our Japanese moms make their own things and so on. Now you see, let's say that the queen of England is still very proud to say that I will do some carpentry work, and they are based on the fact that I can live in this way is the most basic. But you said that in the countryside is not, we have always thought that the children in the countryside should be more exposed to nature, contact with real life should be stronger.

Chen Qiuju: Actually, it is not, and it is becoming less and less like this.

Li Meijin: We rarely let our children understand around us, for example, it is very simple like sewing things, and my daughter is not very good at it. I found that I had ignored this problem in my early years, and then for example, the button of the clothes was broken, and the clothes had a hole, and I taught her anyway. Because when I was young, I didn't go to school in the Cultural Revolution in 1965, I lived in a bungalow every day, I played with boys every day, especially crazy, my mother was afraid that I would be wild, and then she called me home and let me start weaving.

Zhou Yijun: Being a female red, right?

Li Meijin: Yes, weaving. Then at first I remember the first time I was asked to knit a pair of socks, and then I learned it very quickly, almost in two or three days to knit a sock. After that, many people can't imagine that when I was in junior high school, I learned to hook flowers, the cover that I hooked the flower plate cover, and then when I went to college, I would make clothes and cut my own.

Zhou Yijun: You think you can make things with your own hands, what is this change to you, in addition to making those handmade products?

Li Meijin: In the process of doing it, you have imagined what my child should look like, I hope that she is wearing a small red dot, and then white, the top is very narrow, the bottom is a big skirt, and after I finish doing it, it is such a skirt.

Zhou Yijun: I ask a question, do you think that in addition to a sense of accomplishment after you have done this thing, now parents will also say that I can search for a lot of things on Taobao, what is the difference, in addition to doing handicrafts and making clothes for you, for example, what changes have been made to you in your life and work?

Li Meijin: This question is particularly interesting, when I was in college, before I went to college, I was a relatively anxious temper, and then I had a classmate, we were two good friends, and now my classmate is in Australia, she told me at that time, to practice your temperament, you go home and find a messy line, a messy line, and then pull it out.

We have a lot of this kind of thread in our house, because my mother also knits wool, wool, and a lot of different color threads mixed together, and I picked them when I came home from a summer vacation. Including the process of making clothes is also like this, you such as the sleeves, the collar it is not very easy, if it is not good, you have to remove the whole thing, so in this process, you have to experience a process, and this process first practices a kind of patience.

Zhou Yijun: I suddenly found out what kind of thinking I just asked you this question, do you know, that is, results-oriented, this thinking is very serious, this I think Chinese parents in education, just take myself as a model, we always ask what is the use of this? What can this do?

Chen Qiuju: What are the results of doing it?

Zhou Yijun: Yes, in fact, your answer just now is telling me that this process is very important. In fact, that time I went to India, there was a teacher who made toys, he gave us a demonstration at that time, he took a straw, he blew while cutting, while blowing while cutting, he was able to blow out Doraemi hair, just a few tones, and then when I went home to cut the film, I showed it to my daughter, the child really learned very fast, I also wanted to say whether it would take long to practice to cut it, she immediately went to the kitchen to get a straw and then twice.

The light in that eye, the light you just said, I think I've never seen such a light in her eyes, that is, I bought her a toy that is not such a light, this is particularly interesting. In that Finnish episode, many people may also particularly lament that one of the things is that they do not compete, which is the complete opposite of us, we are deep in the bone marrow of the competition, minute by minute and second ratio.

But this thing I think first of all I have to say that the national conditions are different, the history is different, I have to say this first, because this thing I think is obvious in myself, it is this kind of competition and comparison, we are in the genes of this thing from childhood. In fact, my feeling why Finland and China are very different, you first of all from this history, Finland has a special population, it is actually very late to become independent, it is actually the surrounding, that is, Northern Europe, we say that Teacher Chen has been to Denmark and Norway, Sweden and Finland are not the same.

Denmark is a country with a very long history, Sweden was originally a maritime hegemon, and then Norway has abundant oil resources, it is very rich. Finland has nothing but wood and forests, its most precious resource is man, so for them, if it does not regard man as the most precious resource and invest in man, it has nothing, and the country may not exist.

It had fought historically with the Soviet Union, it had fought with Sweden, and how it survived between the two great powers had to turn one man into a force. And the most different, for example, countries like China and the United Kingdom, in fact, the resources are placed at the head or the top, just say that the better the talent, the more resources you get, the more you want to go up, because we need elites to build the country.

But a country like Finland, it's just your talent or this innate condition is worse, it invests more in you, it pulls you forward, it's at the bottom, it's going to have to put everybody up. For example, when I came into contact with my father in Finland, my father was a family Chinese, my mother was Finn, he either told such a cultural conflict as he hit a child, he actually had other stories.

He had three children, the second oldest he actually said at the time, he was born with a little bit of intellectual development is relatively backward, in Finland they will specifically let him go to a special school first, and then let him go to a regular school, give him a lot of encouragement, his child will now assemble computer parts, his father said that if this child is not in Finland, it may have been classified into a certain type of backward children, may not have a chance.

Chen Qiuju: Yes. Then just now you talked about his second disability, I think the whole society is actually very tolerant of such a category of people, especially special respect, especially tolerant. I thought about last year in Denmark, it has a college called the Popular College, it's one between high school and university, and you can go to this school when you turn 17.

Who are the people who read this school, that is, the lowest level of society, psychological disability, and then disability, and then some farmers, as you just said, Finland is to pull the people at the bottom of you away, in fact, it is also the people's college, everyone is free to learn in it, learn from each other, they will think that I can definitely learn from you, you can also learn from me, he is either a unilateral teaching of the teacher, or everyone communicates and learns together.