Zhang Yannan
Zhang Yueran
◎ Dalloway
The third season of the drama series "My Genius Girlfriend", adapted from the famous Italian writer Ferrante's "Neapolitan Quadrilogy", is being broadcast on HBO, and the Douban score has been refreshed again, as high as 9.6. At the same time, Gu Ailing also recommended the book in the third season of the just-launched "Readers". What kind of book is "My Genius Girlfriend" and who is the mysterious writer Ferrante behind it? "Beiqing Art Review" invited the famous writer Zhang Yueran and the young scholar Zhang Yannan to chat together.
1
Beiqing Art Review: How do you feel about reading Ferrante?
Zhang Yueran: I started reading Ferrante very late, and I had some preconceptions about her before, and I even analyzed her as a counterexample and student in class. There are a lot of things about her writing that don't feel comfortable with me, something "provocative" in the aesthetic taste of literature, and something that I think is too direct and crude, which affects my entry into the text. Especially in the first "My Genius Girlfriend", each chapter of her is based on the "points" and "and" of these two girls, such as the first chapter two girls come together, the second chapter will definitely be separated because of a little disagreement, and the third chapter will come together again... Her writing has a very "film and television drama" mentality, which is very beautiful and attractive, but I think it is too externalized. In addition, some chapters are almost entirely dialogues, and the point at which each dialogue pauses is a very effective, but not particularly complex, way of writing. I'll give you another example, for example, she used to write at the beginning of each chapter, and I began to think of what it was like, but this realization changed dramatically over the next two weeks, and she always started with such an umbrella sentence that threw a suspense to the reader and at the same time gave the reader a grip so that the reader would not get lost in the divergent narrative. This somewhat "manipulative" approach to the reader seems to be, in some of the literary stereotypes I have formed, a popular, readable strategy. At that time, I just finished reading "My Genius Girlfriend" and didn't continue to read it. My conclusion is that the subject matter of the work is good, but the literary value of the text is limited. It wasn't until last year that Ferrante's collection of epistolary treatises, Fragments, was published, and I finished reading it because I was interested in the topic of feminism. I learned a lot from it, so I decided to re-read the "Neapolitan Tetralogy". This time I read all four in one sitting, and they really don't fit the more ambiguous, non-interventionist, non-predetermined narrative that we define in the conventional sense of the word, and it employs a very straightforward, author-voiced writing that is a unique strategy for women to write. All in all, this time my reading feeling is completely different from before, and I am glad that I did not miss this work.
Zhang Yannan: When the "Neapolitan Tetralogy" came out, I read it in one sitting. Her writing is so skillful that it is impossible for you to stop. Some people think that this is popular literature and do not continue to read it, and there are others like me who must read it immediately. I also feel the same way as you, when you go to re-read the text, you will read more details, and those are buried deeply.
In an interview with the Paris Review, Ferrante also talked about this issue, she is actually very conscious of adopting some "outdated, vulgar and abusive things", she said that she will never give up those techniques that increase the interest of readers, nor reject the effective tools of other literary genres, "Always remember that a novel is alive, not because the author is more superior, the critics say a lot of good things, or the market is easier to sell, but because those dense words, when written, Never forget or ignore the reader, because only the reader can ignite the fuse of language... What makes everything exquisite and novel is the truth of literature. ”
Zhang Yannan: All the techniques used by Ferrante are actually to reveal the truth of "female existence". I especially admired her for this, and she was very conscious of making her voice heard.
2
Zhang Yueran: When I first started reading Ferrante, I would think that her narrative was too exaggerated, for example, she would often write, "I am very angry", "I am very angry", "I am very anxious"... Later, when I read Fragments, I noticed that she used countless tools (narrative techniques) just to chisel out the truth, and she had always cared about that "truth" very much. This is a peculiar statement, because for many writers, there may never be any single truth. Literature is a very personal thing, everyone has their own illusions and prejudices, and the truth is an objective thing, how can you be sure that the truth you think is also the truth for others. But Ferrante was convinced that such a truth existed. That is the truth of women's perception and experience, she believes that she has to reveal it at all costs, so she believes that many places need to be presented in the most direct way.
Zhang Yannan: Do you feel the "truth" she said?
Zhang Yueran: Yes. There are also many subtle emotions of women, such as Elena to Lila, there is jealousy, there is blessing, there is a long-term goal, there is a current expectation one after another. Sometimes something happens to her, and what she thinks of Lila in her mind, she will list four points directly, like drawing the main points in a textbook. What is the first point, what is the second point, and then "I" overturn the previous idea, and then think of what. People's thoughts always contain many layers at the same time, but in our past narrative system, it is not necessary to list them all so precisely. What is the need to let the heroine go out for a walk and describe the weather, trees, or ducks on the lake. Many times, we take a more subtle and blank approach to inner activity. But by doing so, we may be avoiding writing about complex emotions directly, because we lack the ability to write them out.
Zhang Yannan: I especially agree, and her "focus" is particularly accurate, like Kafka's ice knife, which can directly hit the hazy feelings that envelop women, and these feelings reach the moment of female existentialism, so it can suddenly stir up global readers. As she pokes and writes, we readers are awakened by our own existential experience. And this experience spans a series of classifications of class, race, and East and West. Why is it that de Beauvoir talked about those women in the second volume of "The Second Sex", and when we read it now, we still feel punched in the face and poked? The same is true. Because although the specific situation of women of different races and classes is different, women are connected in the existential sense of what Iligari calls sexual differences. This is also a very powerful point of Ferrante, one second he is still telling a story of dog blood, and the next second he immediately turns the style to draw the key points for you.
Beiqing Art Review: But I still have a doubt, if you put aside the feminist discourse and look at the text of the tetralogy alone, you will feel that you still can't stand up to scrutiny. Compared to Sally Rooney's Normal Man, I probably think her "literary" is a little stronger, while Ferrante's "feminine consciousness" is stronger, so what we're talking about when we're talking about literary.
Zhang Yueran: I am also reflecting on this issue, that is, the "literary nature" that we believe must also be vigilant, and there is no doubt that it is deeply rooted in our cultural traditions. Our cultural tradition is patriarchal, so this "literary" also contains a patriarchal perspective and aesthetic. This raises a more complex question, namely, the extent to which literary aesthetics come from intuition and to what extent they relate to education, and that part of education is clearly shaped by patriarchy. For example, we usually think that in fiction writing, the narrative should be logical, but in fact, this is anti-female thinking, at least most women can not benefit from it, such as you let Duras write a speculative novel, she can not complete it in her lifetime, which is a disaster for her. And our consensus that "narrative should be logical" comes entirely from education? How can we explain that as early as the novel genre did not exist, Chinese folk storytellers must also make the story logical if they want to tell the story well and fascinatingly?
But no matter where the judgment of "literaryness" comes from, it has been established and is very strong, and women's writing can only correct and debug this standard, and it is impossible to completely change it.
Zhang Yannan: When women write, we are faced with a patriarchal cultural tradition that has been formed, and this language itself is logocentrism, and once we use language to express it, we will naturally think of having logic. Duras has a book called "The Woman Who Talks a Lot", which says that women seem to have no logic when they chat. Illigery's strategy is to "go deep into the tiger's den and make a plan", because the whole philosophical tradition is constructed by men, and you can't ignore Plato, but what you can do is more Plato than Plato, more Freud than Freud. You read deeper than they write, and then you kill a rifle, burst word by word, and look for loopholes that they deliberately ignore and forget in their rational arguments.
3
Beiqing Art Review: Is it rare for a writer like Ferrante to be so self-conscious about gender consciousness among Chinese writers?
Zhang Yannan: Yes. Ferrante was able to get to this point because she persisted until now. Writing initially starts from the individual's awareness of the problem, when gender may be a big difference, but if it does not continue to deal with the universal female problem later, it will not be so conscious in terms of female consciousness, but it is always potential. It is also because our modernization process is so fast, the various experiences are compressed, and many things have not really unfolded, and we may not realize it. After 2017, women's issues and women's events have appeared so vigorously in front of everyone, which is a very important opportunity from the perspective of women's consciousness. When we see those women's issues, those women's events, we may recall those offended but repressed moments, those feelings that are difficult to say. Then there is the need for time, and it takes people from various fields to dig out "women" from various discourse fields.
Beiqing Art Review: Including Ferrante herself, she actually underwent a transformation, she said in an interview, she used to think that those great novelists are men, and she has to learn to tell stories like them. It took a long time for her to realize that we should build our own traditions for women. "A woman who writes, the only thing she thinks about is to tell what she knows and experiences, whether beautiful or ugly, without following any guidelines, not even following the same front of women, writing requires great ambition, needs to get rid of all kinds of prejudices, and needs a planned resistance." 」
Zhang Yueran: There is a voice that says that the fullest and most complex female figures in the novel are created by male artists, such as Flaubert's Emma, such as Tolstoy's Anna Karenina, how to refute or understand this voice? In fact, I never felt that Emma and Anna showed the subtle and complex understanding and thinking of women that are not in other works, I think they are actually some carriers, and what we get from them is the understanding and thinking of human nature rather than women. But Ferrante's "Neapolitan Quadrilogy" does take a long enough length to contribute two good characters to us. It is as if they are using a fine brush stroke, patiently sketching and depicting one stroke after another, and finally becoming plump. When I read the first book, Lila's image was still a little bit facial, but she kept growing. In the third part, she revealed a lot of fragile things, she had to work in the factory, there were very real difficulties in making a living, so she had to show a tough side, but at the same time there were many gentle moments, in short, this image was constantly changing, the layers were very rich, and in the end we had no way to define them, leaving behind a complex and full female image. This wonderful experience is different from Anna and Emma.
Zhang Yannan: I very much agree with the statement that most of the women in the male writer's writing are "carriers". The same is true in painting, the goddess in classical painting is always naked, always with a sad look, that is, a woman from a male perspective. The humanity they place in this vector, we know, is the masculinity that we mean. So when reading male writers, we have to be more careful about how they recruit female characters. Ferrante's female characters are carved out in one stroke, and the woman is the center of her story. The mother mentioned earlier has a process of transformation.
Zhang Yueran: In the fourth part of the "Tetralogy", there is a particularly big change, that is, her mother said a "truth" that we have been saying, and her mother said, for me, in fact, only the first child is really my child. The reason why I am so harsh on you is because I have the highest expectations of you. There is indeed a very sincere mother-daughter feeling in this. I am the mother of a boy, and when I see Ferrante, I will have a deep feeling, or a personal regret, that is, I feel that the life of not having a daughter is incomplete for women. Yannan, I am very interested in the concept of "disappearing boundaries" mentioned repeatedly in the tetralogy, but I don't think I fully understand, how do you understand?
Zhang Yannan: It can be understood as the experience of the main body breaking. You will find that nothing is solid, including the solid image of "you" that you think you have. Our experience is always fluid and consciousness is continuous. Boundaries disappear as a result of being struck by some absolute external or intrinsic force that pierces through the cloak of our original self-identity. It is also in this moment of shock that we have the opportunity to reconstruct our own subjectivity.
Beiqing Art Review: Isn't this the existentialism that Sartre talked about?
Zhang Yannan: Yes. A moment of female existentialism, to be precise. Note, however, that under the entire patriarchal discourse, men are actually disciplined more severely than women, but because the patriarchal discourse as a whole is beneficial to men, this oppression is even more difficult to perceive. Therefore, feminism is liberating women at the same time as liberating men, and everyone has more free choices.
4
Beiqing Art Review: Speaking of men, there is a very interesting evaluation on Douban, many people like it, it is about Nino, and everyone kindly nativeizes him as "Naples Hulancheng". Women seem to have a pleasure in crusading against "scumbags".
Zhang Yueran: In my opinion, the difference between the two is still quite large. The love pattern of Ferrante's novels is basically love at first sight, and Elena has liked this boy named Nino since childhood, which is like a setting, a program, once entered into her brain, it is difficult to change. If there is knowledge or intellect, Pietro is certainly stronger than Nino, and the social class is higher than him, but under Ferrante's setting, Elena certainly does not like Pietro, which seems to me to have a natural feminism, that is, she is not attracted to a "wisdom" or "talent" as defined by a patriarchal education, but a more natural thing. But Zhang Ailing's love for Hu Lancheng contains a fascination with his literary appreciation and the charm of words, which has a patriarchal thinking. Here in Ferrante, I think that love is still quite equal, a very refreshing thing.
Zhang Yannan: When you talk about Hu Lancheng, I think of Lin Yihan "Fang Siqi". She said in an interview that she read Hu Lancheng's "This Life and This Life" and also read our classical literary classics, which led to a question that is still worth pondering: Is the true heart of a true literati who should have a thousand hammers and thousands of tempers really exist? She questioned and doubted whether intellectuals really took what they said about themselves when they were speaking very learned, elegant, and intellectually armed with words, while oppressing women. Or is it just a rhetorical gesture, or is it just their job and has nothing to do with them? Lin Yihan's pain is that she has no way to completely deny it, all this is fake.
I thought that if this thing had not been reflected, then my pursuit of knowledge and truth itself would have been confused with the worship of a man. Going back to Nino, I agree that they are intellectually equal, but one thing to be wary of is: why does Elena still feel hurt in the tug-of-war between the two sides? Isn't knowledge supposed to guarantee this equality between us? Why does this feeling of being hurt still fall on the side of the woman? So I also don't quite agree with feeling that relationship is love at first sight. I think Nino's attraction to Elena has more to do with Lila.
Zhang Yueran: I said that love at first sight may not be very accurate, and there may be many complicated reasons behind it. Elena's marriage to Pietro may have wanted to achieve a class leap, and that intellectual family was obviously attractive to her, but soon the spell was broken. But Nino is an unbreakable spell, apparently not because of Nino's verbal ability and level of intelligence.
Zhang Yannan: I would like to borrow the way you just said that "women in the male writer's pen are a 'carrier'" to understand Nino. In the pen of a feminist writer like Ferrante, Nino between Lila and Elena's relationship may also be a "carrier". This is uncomfortable, but understandable, because the relationship between women can hardly be directly presented in the whole patriarchal structure, and there is always a need for a man as an intermediary, a father between a mother and a daughter, a man between a woman... Why is there always a man standing in the middle of a woman?
5
Beiqing Art Review: The analysis perspective of feminism is very interesting, and women will not have a certain protective effect if they are exposed to more such knowledge.
Zhang Yannan: There is the role of "armor", and I think it is in me. Becoming a feminist is actually very similar in mental process, first of all, to get rid of the father's daughter in the body. Then, the "armor" is established by tracing the feminist pioneers, and the one we are most familiar with is Woolf, and spiritually we have to find such a feminine tradition that is related to ourselves, otherwise we have learned only an external knowledge, not enough to form your "armor". Women will always linger, sometimes feel that they are full of strength, sometimes they are frustrated, and it will be much better if they have been led by scholars.
Beiqing Art Review: So here in Ferrante, she has also been emphasizing the tradition of creating women's own. "As women, we want to build a strong, rich and vast literary world, as rich as the literary world of male writers, or even richer, so we have to be better armed, we have to dig deep into our differences, we have to use advanced tools to dig." 」
Zhang Yannan: For women's voices to be heard, women on every front need to work together. Women writers are writing, women scholars are doing theoretical work, and women in other fields... Then we need more dialogue with each other. What I ask of myself is to say as much as I can whenever I have the opportunity, and to write as long as I have the opportunity to write. Don't want that much.