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"Creating the World with Imagination" is an interview between Ursula Le Guin and the writer David Naimen, and it is also the last interview of Le Guin.
Text丨David Naymen
Ursula Le Guin said: "Children know very well that there are no unicorns in the world, but they also know that good unicorns must be real." ”
Growing up reading "The Legend of Earthsea", I have the above feelings in reading. In the world of Earthsea, magic is commonplace, with wizards roaming the land and dragons soaring through the sky. Ursula Le Guin's words moved me farther and farther away from the real world, but my feelings became more real. She is essentially an imaginative writer, not a fiction writer for the sake of writing. In her view, imagination is not a spice to pass the time, it is dispensable; On the contrary, the key to being human is imagination, and it is imagination that shapes us. She was convinced of this, and warned the people: "Those who deny the existence of dragons are often devoured by dragons. ”
I've been riding on the wings of Le Guin's imagination since I was a kid and adventuring around, and the thought of interviewing the real Ursula Le Guin makes me wonder what it's like to meet her in person. On one side is the imaginative science fiction writer and wizard, who summons many worlds with words; On the other side of the spectrum are real women living in Portland, Oregon, who live in the same neighborhood as me every day. Before I interviewed her about the elements of fiction, I was really curious about how wizards and mortals could be connected.
We first met in the studio of Radio Cobb. The community radio station is located in the eastern part of the city of Portland and is largely funded by volunteers. During the interview, Ursula's first impression was that she was down-to-earth, she knew what she wanted, and she would never let anyone make trouble. She has been through a lot in the long journey of life, but what she has is not only a wealth of experience, but also a kind of inner wisdom that has long been transformed into an inner wisdom in her, and because of this, she seems to be unable to tolerate hypocrisy and pretense. In the follow-up contact, my first impression of her was confirmed again and again, and my opinion of her has continued.
A still from the documentary "The Multiple Worlds of Le Guin".
Is there a contradiction between Ursula in life and Ursula, who is full of imagination and always soaring in other worlds? Strangely, this contradiction does not seem to exist. Reality and imagination are inseparable, and a writer's roots can only reach high into the sky when their roots go deep into the earth. But the more I came into contact with Ursula outside of the novel, the deeper I felt, and the more I felt that it was upside down in her. For her, it is the spiritual world in her works, as well as the imaginative content, that gives her infinite vitality in life.
Ursula Le Guin has long been known abroad, with the American Society of Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers honoring her as a "Master of Science Fiction" and the Library of Congress awarding her the "Living Legend" award. Despite this, she still insists on working with small independent publishing houses to publish her works, and we can always see her active figure. She is also a frequent guest on Radio Cobb, and shares the same philosophy and concern with the communities she represents, which is to advocate for the marginalized and neglected groups in society. I couldn't help but make a bold guess that maybe it was the imaginary worlds of Earthsea, Winter Star, and Anaris, other possible ways of being that existed in her mind, that injected power into Ursula in real life. They can't be seen or touched, but they affect her words and deeds.
After coming into contact with her, I quickly discovered that grammar, syntax, and sentence structure, which seem to be the most prosaic elements, can also become dynamic under the magic of something invisible, which is either hidden behind or beyond itself. From the length, rhythm, and sound of a sentence to the tense, perspective, and pronouns, each element has its own history, story, and cultural connotation. We can't say for sure whether the results will be good or bad, but they can at least be turned into concrete information that will lead us to an imaginary future world.
A still from the documentary "The Multiple Worlds of Le Guin".
Q&A
David Naimen: For most art forms, such as painting, dance, music, imitation is an essential part of the learning process, and it is essential for artists to hone their skills and find their own voice or style. Even the most experimental and innovative painters tend to have a time when their style is similar to that of their predecessors. You've always been generous in recommending imitation as a technique for learning to write, but traditionally, it seems that many writers find imitation a bit awkward.
Ursula Le Guin: Maybe it's not traditionally like this, but in fact, people think that imitation is a recent phenomenon. Regardless of the art form, learners should see imitation as a tool for learning, otherwise, imitation will degenerate into plagiarism. The purpose of your imitation is to learn and grow, not to publish. You have to publish it, of course, but you make it clear that "this is a work that imitates Hemingway's style."
Nowadays, due to the popularization of the Internet and the intensification of competition in universities, the boundary between imitation and plagiarism is becoming increasingly blurred, and many teachers warn people not to imitate out of this consideration, which is very stupid. If you want to write well, you have to read good works and imitate their style. If a pianist has never heard anyone else play, how does he know how to play? Imitation can benefit us, but I don't think we're using it well.
David Naimen: You've often emphasized the importance of sound, saying that the sound of language is the starting point of everything, and that language is ultimately a material being.
Ursula Le Guin: I can hear my own words. I started writing poetry at a very young age, and the sound of words naturally echoed in my head. Later, I realized that many people can't hear their own words when they write, they don't try to listen, and their way of knowing is more theoretical or intellectual. But if your body responds to words, if you can hear your own words, then you can find the right rhythm by listening, which can help you craft clean sentences.
Young writers always talk about "finding your voice", but if you don't listen to your own words, how can you find your own voice? The sound of words is very important for creation, but when we teach genres other than poetry, we often ignore this, which leads to many people writing poorly, and the text is always "knock, knock, knock". At the end of the day, we wonder what went wrong.
A still from the documentary "The Multiple Worlds of Le Guin".
David Naiman: At the Portland Lecture on Literature and Arts in 2000, you had a wonderful remark:
From memories to experiences, from imagination to creativity and words, what lies behind is rhyme. Memory, imagination, and words all move with the rhythm. The writer's mission is to keep exploring and digging deeper until he feels the rhythm beating, so that it can guide memories and imagination to find the right words.
Ursula Le Guin: Thanks to Virginia Woolf, who wrote to her friend Vita for her wonderful discussion of rhythm. She proposes that style is rhythm and likens rhythm to "waves in consciousness". The waves of rhythm precede the words and lead the words to their service.
David Naimen: You quote Woolf, maybe because she's done the best at using the rhythm.
Ursula Le Guin: The rhythmic rhythm she uses in her work is exemplary. But we can also find many other excellent representatives. I wrote an article about the rhythmic use of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. The short rhythm becomes the rhythm of the whole work through repetition. Many people love "The Lord of the Rings", and it must be inseparable from the short rhythm that loops back and forth in the work. It can be said that the rhythm of "The Lord of the Rings" captures our hearts and makes us enjoy it.
Tolkien in Writing
David Naimen: Interestingly, you're not only emphasizing the importance of understanding grammar and related terms, but also the importance of questioning grammatical rules. You also reveal the strange phenomenon that grammar is an indispensable tool in the writing profession, but many writers still deliberately avoid it.
Ursula Le Guin: I was born in 1929, and my generation, including those younger than me, grew up in grammar, and grammar has long been imprinted in our minds. We are familiar with the proper nouns of sentence components, and we also understand how English works as a language. Nowadays, most students in schools do not learn this, and the school does not require as much reading as it used to be, and does not speak much grammar. For the writer, it's like being thrown into a craftsman's shop, and he's going in, but he's never learned the names of the various tools inside, let alone how to use them. What can we do with a Phillips screwdriver? Even, what is a Phillips screwdriver? Instead of giving people the tools to write, we keep shouting, "You can write too!" "Anyone has the ability to write, as long as you are willing to sit down and pick up a pen to write!" But the truth is that no matter what we do, we have to prepare the corresponding tools in advance.
David Naimen: You've mentioned the benefits of diagrammatic sentences, and you think that diagrams can help us discover the skeleton of sentences.
Ursula Le Guin: I didn't learn diagrammatic sentences when I went to school, my older generation did. My mom and aunt used diagrams to break down sentences, and they showed me this technique. I love the process of illustrating sentences, and it's very enlightening for those who have the awareness to illustrate sentences. It's like drawing the skeleton of a horse, and you're sure to say, "That's how the bones were connected!" ”
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Ursula Le Guin,
David Naimen
Xing Wei/Translation
Hou Lang丨Beijing Times Chinese Book Office
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