Mr. He Zuoxiu, a well-known theoretical physicist and academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and his wife, Professor of the Department of Physics of Peking University and researcher of the Institute of Theoretical Physics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Mr. Qing Chengrui, invited them to talk about Mr. Yang Zhenning, whom they had interacted with and contacted.
Academician He is 94 years old this year, Professor Qing is 88 years old, and since the 1970s, the couple has been in contact with Yang Zhenning and Li Zhengdao, and they are also people in the field of physics. On the 90th birthday of Academician He in 2017, Mr. Yang Zhenning also personally went to the birthday celebration site of Academician He to congratulate him and welcome him to join the 90-year-old club, and Mr. Li Zhengdao was abroad and sent a congratulatory letter to Academician He.
Although Academician He is old and his actions are not very convenient, he heard that we wanted to ask him to talk about Mr. Yang Zhenning, and he happily agreed to our request.
Photo: Mr. He Zuoxiu and his wife Qing Chengrui, photo: Wang Zheng
In this interview, the two teachers spoke freely and had a lot of fun, talking about some unknown past events of Mr. Yang and Mr. Li, as well as the development of Chinese science. For Mr. Yang and Li, they did not hesitate to praise in their words, while for the development of Chinese science, as the older generation of scientific workers, they held a ardent needle, overflowing with a certain sense of urgent expectation for the national scientific research cause to catch up with the developed countries.
Following tsinghua university, the Chinese Physical Society and the University of Chinese of Hong Kong jointly celebrated the 100th birthday of Mr. Yang Zhenning on September 22, the Institute of High Energy Physics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the High Energy Physics Branch of the Chinese Physical Society, which have a good relationship with Mr. Li, also held a celebration of Mr. Li Zhengdao's 95th birthday on October 10. Involving Academician He to talk about the relevant content of Mr. Li, the "Master of Science" column will be compiled into a separate article and published separately, and this article will only focus on Mr. Yang Zhenning.
1, The academic achievements of Yang Zhenning and Li Zhengdao have influenced the thinking of a generation
Master of Science: You were associated with Mr. Yang Zhenning and Mr. Li Zhengdao for a long time, starting in the 1950s, right?
He Zuoxiu: Mr. Yang is 5 years older than me, from our field of physics, it is half a generation, 10 years is a generation, Mr. Li is one year older than me, we belong to the same generation.
In 1946, when I was a student, Mr. Yang had a cousin named Yang Zhenhuai, who later became the minister of our Ministry of Water Resources, we were all students of Shanghai Jiaotong University, very familiar, he told me at that time, his brother Yang Zhenning how to do, how to do, study very well, is an amazing excellent student.
Yang Zhenhuai also told me a story, saying that Mr. Yang's father, Professor Yang Wuzhi, was the predecessor of the mathematician Hua Luogeng. Hua Luogeng was of course talented, and later came to the top, surpassing Mr. Yang Wuzhi. When the two of them were dealing with Tsinghua, Mr. Hua may be a little young and vigorous when he talks, and when discussing academic issues, he will say mr. Yang Wuzhi how wrong you are, and sometimes he is not very polite. Old Mr. Yang was not happy, and said to Mr. Hua, I can't catch up with you in mathematics in my life, but in the future my son will definitely surpass you. So you can know that Yang Zhenning has been famous since he was a child.
Later, I also went to Tsinghua to study, and I had a good relationship with Guo Dunren (a physicist and physics educator) who was an assistant teacher in the physics department at that time, and Guo Dunren once asked me if I knew that Tsinghua had four famous generals: Peng, Wang, Lin and Yang. I asked who are they?
The first Peng huanwu was Peng Huanwu, one of the later two bombs and one star meritorious service; and the first director of our Institute of Theoretical Physics of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (Editor's note: Peng Huanwu was the teacher of Huang Zuqia, Zhou Guangzhao, He Zuoxiu and others). Long before Teacher Peng returned to China, I heard about Peng Huanwu's fame. The second Wang is Wang Zhuxi (a pioneer in the study of statistical physics in Thermodynamics in China, and famous students include Yang Zhenning, Chen Chiren, Xu Xishen, etc.); the third Lin, is Lin Jiaqiao (academician of the Three Academies of Sciences of China and the United States, mechanics and mathematicians), who has made many outstanding contributions to the fields of fluid mechanics and astrophysics, and after Mr. Yang Zhenning returned to China, he also settled in Tsinghua to teach and taught many students. The fourth Yang is Yang Zhenning. This is the story told in 1948. At that time, Yang Zhenning had already gone abroad, and when he mentioned this person, his reputation was like thunder.
He Zuoxiu, Qing Chengrui and Peng Huanwu (center), the meritorious hero of two bombs and one star. /Image courtesy of the Museum of Chinese Scientists
My cousin and cousin-in-law Wang Chengshu (academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and nuclear physicist) and Zhang Wenyu (academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and high-energy physicist) met Yang Zhenning. When they were teaching at southwest United University, they had many contacts with Yang Zhenning. Later, the couple went to the United States to study and work. When they returned to China in 1956, I was assigned by the Chinese Academy of Sciences to welcome them at Luohu Bridgehead in Shenzhen. As soon as I heard that I was studying particle physics and theoretical physics, they gave me an article, which was a preprint of the paper "On the Non-Conservation of Cosmology of Weak Interactions" cooperated by Li Zhengdao and Yang Zhenning, which had not yet been officially published and had not yet won the Nobel Prize, and I became the first researcher in China to read their paper.
In particular, Wang Chengshu also introduced some research work of Yang Zhenning and Li Zhengdao, such as Yang Zhenning's research on π0→2γ, Li Zhengdao's study of Li Model, and so on. Say their work is recognized by academia. The word "acknowledgement" is very critical, not that I write articles that I think can be done, but that I have to be universally recognized by the academic community.
At the end of 1956, Wu Jianxiong (a prominent Chinese scientist) confirmed the conjecture of the non-conservation of the two of them through experiments, and as soon as this result came out, it caused a warm response, and Wu Youxun, Zhou Peiyuan, and Qian Sanqiang sent congratulatory messages to the two of them on behalf of the Chinese Physical Society. China's science was very backward at that time, and this matter attracted everyone's attention, and many academic seminars were held. At that time, there were few people who really understood in China, and it was this incident that led many young Chinese physicists to the study of particle physics. The work of Mr. Yang and Mr. Li can be said to have influenced a generation.
Soon they won the Nobel Prize at the end of 1957. This shock was even more shocking, the impact went beyond academia, and also shook the national leaders. At the Nobel Prize ceremony, China also sent Mr. Zhang Wenyu a special trip from China to Sweden to congratulate them, and there was also hope that mr. Zhang would win them back to China.
But it was not easy to win them back to China, at that time, in the early days of the founding of the People's Republic of China, both of them had some sensitive kinship, such as Li Zhengdao's family was on the other side of the strait, and his brother was still a big official there. Yang Zhenning's father-in-law, Du Yuming, was a senior Kuomintang general who was still imprisoned in Gongdelin at the time, and the situation was complicated. In order to win them over, as far as I know, the Chinese government immediately implemented a special policy for these people, for example, as soon as Yang Zhenning won the Nobel Prize, The living conditions of General Du Yuming were immediately improved.
Qing Chengrui: At that time, China and the United States had not yet formally established diplomatic relations, and after Nixon came to visit, he said that China could be opened up and the Chinese could return to China. However, limited to the macro climate at that time, people abroad did not understand the situation at home, saying that the Chinese could return to China, which did not mean that the Chinese dared to return to China.
Mr. Yang was the first to take the lead in returning, but he was not without concerns, one was afraid that the Chinese side would not let him return to China, and the other was that he was afraid of being detained after returning and would not let him return to the United States. Because there was such a thing in the former Soviet Union, famous scientists who had worked abroad and had outstanding achievements were detained when they arrived in Moscow.
To Yang Zhenning's surprise, he applied for a visa in Geneva to return to China to visit relatives, and originally thought that it would take half a year to get it. As a result, our consulate saw that it was Yang Zhenning, and immediately approved it, and there was no need to wait. He was also ready to be detained, but he did not expect to be warmly welcomed by everyone after returning to China, and there was no detention of him.
Now there are quite a few people who have misunderstood Mr. Yang, saying that he is not patriotic, we do not see it that way, we know the real situation, since he took the lead in returning to China, there have been successive Returns of Chinese, this matter has made a deep impression on us.
Master of Science: When Mr. Yang came back in the 1970s, what was the situation when you met?
He Zuoxiu: When they came back, of course, they were in suits and leather shoes, and we were wearing cadre clothes and Zhongshan suits. After he came back, he met with Chinese scientists and introduced some of the scientific work he did abroad, and we also talked about some of the scientific work we were doing, so that we could officially start contact with Mr. Yang Zhenning.
In 1971, Mr. Yang was the first to take the lead in returning to China to visit his relatives, and we formally dealt with it. At that time, my wife was still in Nanchang Liyuzhou Cadre School. I also participated in labor study at the Five-Seven Cadre School. However, my cadre school is in Beijing, and after seeing him, I have to go back to the cadre school for labor reform.
Mr. Yang also said later that one of his good friends was named Deng Jiaxian, and after he returned to China, we asked him who he wanted to meet, and he said some people, the first of whom was Deng Jiaxian. At that time, Deng Jiaxian's unit was holding a meeting to criticize Deng Jiaxian, when he suddenly received an urgent order from the State Council, telling him to return to Beijing immediately, which hurriedly stopped the criticism of Deng Jiaxian. Therefore, it is not a lie that Yang Zhenning saved Deng Jiaxian's life. The first scientific paper I published was a long article Written by Deng Jiaxian and me on the phenomenon of β decay. I was also involved in nuclear weapons research and had a relationship with Deng Jiaxian, who was three years older than me.
"Master of Science": You say that Mr. Yang and Mr. Li have attracted many young people to study particle physics, and their achievements have influenced the thinking of a generation.
He Zuoxiu: "Practice is the only criterion for testing scientific truth." This is a major philosophical proposition. It was actually sharply mentioned after the two of them discovered that the universe was not conserved under weak interaction. Originally, it was recognized that the left-hand coordinate was used to describe some phenomena in particle physics and their performance laws, but once the right-hand coordinate was used to describe, it was found that under the description of these phenomena, there was an extra negative sign, and the discovery of this phenomenon was really very strange!
The fact that the law of cosmology and balance will be overturned involves how a scientific truth is known, studied, and deepened and corrected. It turned out that everyone habitually thought that the universe was conserved, and no one dared to overturn it. When the two proposed that there might be cosmological asymmetry in the case of weak interactions, this theorem was later proved and tested as incorrect experimentally. This shows that all scientific truths are not imagined with the head, but must be proved by scientific experiments.
This, of course, will cause great shock in the intellectual world. This is not limited to the field of natural sciences, but at the level of philosophy and social science, it also introduces the discussion that practice is the only criterion for testing truth, judging whether a theory and an idea are correct or wrong, and the most important thing is to look at practice, rather than blind listening, blind belief, blind obedience. The implications are far-reaching.
Photos of Yang Zhenning (second from right) and Lee Jung-do (first from left) attending the event together in their later years, 2004. /Image from the web
2, I hope that the two can detach from the dispute and leave a good story of history
"Master of Science": The most concerned issue is the breakdown of the relationship between Mr. Li and Mr. Yang, and the core of the contradiction is because of the signature of the paper?
HE Zuoxiu: That's right. We in the physics community have a tradition of attributing papers, and scientific papers that are co-authored by many people are generally sorted alphabetically by ABCD, especially in large scientific experiments, and often have hundreds of people participating in the work. How can you do it by contribution? Because Mr. Li's scientific talent is not small, Mr. Yang's talent is not small, in alphabetical order, that is, Li must be ranked first (LY) of Yang. But not all sciences are this tradition, some scientific fields must be ranked according to the size of the contribution, physics according to my understanding, the general situation is arranged by ABCD, in case of special circumstances, it may be reversed, according to the size of the contribution.
Specific to Mr. Li and Mr. Yang, it is a bit complicated. Who ranks first and who ranks behind involves the question of who contributes the largest and who contributes the smaller, and the question of who comes first and who is the main figure in the discovery of the cosmological non-balance theorem.
As a colleague of theirs, I can only say that both of them have contributed, and both have made great contributions.
You know, they proposed that the universe is not conserved, here involves a lot of scientific questions, under what circumstances conservation and under what circumstances are not balanced, this is a theoretical conjecture, has not been confirmed by experiments. Therefore, many people regret that Mr. Wu Jianxiong (Chinese, academician of the National Academy of Sciences, known as Marie Curie of the East, one of the world's most outstanding experimental physicists) expressed regret. The theory or conjecture was proposed by Li and Yang, but the experiment was made by Mr. Wu first, but the Nobel Prize did not have her share.
According to the ABCD, when the two of them attended the award ceremony in 1957, one of the things that Mr. Li was most unhappy about was that when he gave a speech, it was Mr. Yang who asked to speak first, because Mr. Yang was 4 years older than Mr. Li. However, Mr. Li also agreed, so there is no need to dispute the order of speeches. But in this way, in the minds of many people, it seems that Mr. Yang has made a great contribution, so please ask him to talk first. So the dispute began.
Qing Chengrui: In fact, the two people are entangled in some small problems, and both people can't let go.
"Master of Science": In the discovery of the weak interaction under the major scientific problem of cosmological non-conservation, who has contributed more, we laymen do not understand, you are particle physicists, you should be able to make a judgment, right?
He Zuoxiu: If we had to make a "greater" contribution to the question of the two of them discovering that the universe may no longer be conserved under the weak interaction, "who" would contribute more? Actually, there is an answer to this question, tied for first.
Professor Steinberg, a good friend of Lee Jung-do, once commented on the contributions of both of them. Li Zhengdao explores that the weak interaction of strange particles may not be conserved, the so-called "τ-θ mystery", all refer to the strange particles, while Mr. Yang believes that the weak interaction between neutrons, protons and other non-exotic particles may not be conserved.
Exotic particles, non-exotic particles, are two types of particles that are very different in nature. The scientific ideas of the two masters of science together form the complete hypothesis in particle physics that "cosmology under weak interactions may not be conserved".
Therefore, Professor Steinberg's statement actually supports a more accepted view: tied for first.
"Master of Science": Both gentlemen have passed the age of 90, after a century of time, is it possible to take advantage of the fact that they are alive and dissolve this matter?
He Zuoxiu: Ma Qian of the Taishi Company wrote the same thing in the "Records of History", Liu Bang and Xiang Yu fought, Chen Sheng and Wu Guang fought, and the other pair, called Zhang Er and Chen Yu, all came out of the peasant movement, made great contributions, and when they were young, they were better, and then they quarreled and broke up. I have said this many times at the behest of my friends, and I have said that both of them are masters of science and will leave a record in history in the future. How did Sima Qian resolve the controversy over the size of this major historical contribution in the Chronicle of History? First of all, the "Records of History" specially wrote a "Gao Zu Benji" for Liu Bang. History cannot criticize the victors. However, the "Records of History" did not erase Xiang Yu's contribution to the overthrow of the Qin Dynasty, and in how to overthrow the Qin Dynasty, Xiang Yu's contribution may be even greater. Therefore, the "History" also wrote a "Benji" specifically for Xiang Yu.
Chen Sheng and Wu Guang were the initiators of the peasant revolution, and the first contribution of the initiators certainly could not be erased. Therefore, the "Records of History" wrote Chen Sheng Wu Guang's "Chen Shijia" for the two of them. Later, Chen Sheng and Wu Guang quarreled, arguing who had the greater credit? However, in the ranking of "Shijia", Chen Sheng was still placed in front of Wu Guang, because this is a historical fact.
Zhang Er Chen Yu was also another team that cooperated in the uprising. Later, controversy also arose over the size of the credit. However, the historical record still wrote the "Biography of Lie" for Zhang Er and Chen Yu. Because that's a historical fact. The history books do not have the power to change the order of signatures, nor do they have to judge whose merit is great through order.
I suspect that in the future "Twenty-Six Histories" of China, there will definitely be a biography of Li Zhengdao, Yang Zhenning, or Yang Zhenning, Li Zhengdao, to record this big event. As for how the future history will be sorted, it is impossible to avoid this matter in the history books.
Personally, I hope that in the dispute over their signatures, everyone will be a little more detached, and it is best to leave a record of the two returning to the good in the history books. Both of them were senior university students, and it was no longer worth worrying about on these issues.
Before his death, Premier Zhou Enlai hoped that the Chinese physics community, especially our contemporaries, would do their work and mediate the relationship between the two of them. Don't say that we don't have this ability, that is, Premier Zhou personally gave them two work, and it didn't work.
Mr. Yang wished for his birthday in September, and Mr. Li also wished for his birthday in October, and both invited me. In academia, neither gentleman asked everyone to take a stand, nor did they have the idea of pulling their own mountain. However, we sincerely hope that the two of them can leave a historical fact that the two of them will return to good in the future li zhengdao and Yang Zhenning's joint biography or Yang Zhenning's joint biography.
A group photo of the academic seminar on the 90th birthday of Academician He Zuoxiu was attended by Mr. Yang Zhenning (seventh from the left). /Image courtesy of respondents
3, Yang Zhenning's opposition to the large particle collider has been stopped by the above
"Master of Science": When you were 90 years old, you held an academic celebration party, and Mr. Yang personally attended, also took a speech on the stage, and took photos together. Mr. Li and Mr. Ding (Nobel Laureate Professor Ding Zhaozhong) sent congratulatory letters respectively. You are actually all longevity scientists, do you have some common ideas in this regard?
He Zuoxiu: Our luck is still good. Where is Mr. Yang's good luck? First, he did not have diabetes, the Yang family ancestors had diabetes, his mother did not, Mr. Yang just inherited his mother's genes, and there was no major genetic disease. There is also a catch-up with the current great development of medical science. Mr. Yang has a heart attack, and he has had heart bypass surgery, a major operation. Modern hospitals are also very different from the hospitals of the past, so I think he is. I myself can live a long and healthy life, and so can I.
Qing Chengrui: I am 88 years old this year, we people who are engaged in science, we will not be fooled by people, we will not believe that there are any special skin care products, I think this is the key factor. Mood is also very important, if you are not in a good mood all day long, every day is not happy, the body will probably be affected.
"Master of Science": The average person does not know the situation of Mr. Yang in his later years, especially in academic activities. What issues is he more concerned about?
He Zuoxiu: There is a professor at Fudan University, Professor Shi Yu, who is more than 50 years old and has lived with Mr. Yang for half a year, and wrote an article for Mr. Yang, discussing Mr. Yang's multifaceted contributions from the perspective of the history of science. In particular, he pointed out that Mr. Yang has a very standard thinking, he pays more attention to the possible development direction of physics in the next 10 or 20 years, and he has led Tsinghua undergraduates for a period of time, focusing on guiding the young people of the younger generation to develop into which important academic fields. Now that he's older, he can't teach, but he wants to be able to keep his thoughts behind.
For example, the student who studied with him for a doctorate, in his early years, he brought particle physics. But the students who came later were no longer particle physics. He had a phD student named Yu Lihua, who had something to do with me, and his father was my graduation thesis supervisor at Tsinghua University, Professor Yu Ruihuang. When Yu Lihua went to the United States in the 1970s, of course, he took our introduction letters, including his father's introduction letters, and Yang Zhenning accepted him.
Yang Zhenning is a famous theoretical physicist and particle physicist, Yu Lihua is very willing to learn from him, but he asked Yu Lihua to do free electron laser, which is not particle physics. Yu Lihua has done a very good job in that field. But when he was a doctoral student, the free electron laser had not yet been made, and the eight characters had not yet been skimmed, and now it has become an important field.
Mr. Yang also has a student, Zhao Wu, who told him to change from high-energy physics to a high-energy accelerator, and Mr. Yang looked at the pattern of physics problems more broadly and had a farther vision.
Like Mr. Li Zhengdao, he is laying out the layout for the development of Chinese science, such as Tsinghua, in addition to physics, Academician Yao Zhizhi, who was also invited back by Mr. Yang, academician Yao represents the cross-combination of computer physics and artificial intelligence, and the general direction of the unavoidable. Academician Yao is also a pioneer and founder of this emerging field of science. Wang Xiaoyun, a technology rookie and cryptography expert who was not familiar to most people at that time, was also hired as a Chair Professor Yang Zhenning of the Tsinghua Institute for Advanced Study.
Of course, Mr. Yang is also concerned about major scientific research trends in particle physics. For example, Professor Wang Yifang, director of the Institute of High Energy of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, wants to promote the construction of a super-large particle collider, which conflicts with Mr. Yang's concept of "The Party is over.". Mr. Yang did not spit unhappily and directly poured cold water. As far as I know, he wrote a letter to Leader One, saying that he had been opposed to the construction of such a super-large collider for many years. In the United States he was opposed. He said that this thing costs too much money to do, the technology is very complicated, China does not have this power, to invite foreign people to do it, it is equivalent to spending money, and the final main results are taken away, and China has a lot of more important things to be developed, and a lot of money must be invested. And the focus of physics development in the next 10 years and 20 years is not in this place, and so on. After reading it, Leader No. 1 made a directive, "It seems that this matter is not mature." The Chinese Academy of Sciences has set up a major project review committee, and 11 people have come to review it, because it is necessary to consider the whole picture, not only high-energy accelerators, but also aerospace, the Internet and other major scientific research projects. The final result I know is a 6:5 veto, that is, this super-large collider did not do it, which is equivalent to making a formal conclusion.
I think it is very important for Mr. Yang to focus on various physical problems, that is, you should not make the development direction wrong.