By Wilson Morales
Translator: Yi Ersan
Proofreader: Qin Tian
Source: Blackfilm (February 2004)
Once you've been in the industry long enough and earned the respect of everyone, including critics and audiences, then you'll have a lot less restrictions on making movies. Take the famous director Bernardo Bertolucci as an example. He directed The Last Tango in Paris, with Marlon Brando; his Film the Last Emperor, which won 9 Oscars, including Best Director and Best Picture; and his Collaboration with Sandy Newton, The Confusion of Love, a film I personally admire a lot.
The Confusion of Love (1998)
His latest work is the controversial Dream of Paris, which has been rated NC-17 and will be distributed by Fox Searchlight. Recently, Bertolucci spoke in an interview with this magazine about his films and why there are so many nude shots.
Reporter: Why did you choose Michael Pitt to play the role of Matthew?
Bertolucci: I think he was the typical naïve American country boy who parachuted into Paris in 1968. I found Jack Gyllenhaal when I went to Los Angeles and New York to audition. I saw him staying with two or three other kids. I liked him, but then when I came back to London, just before I could make a decision, I saw Jack perform on stage, and I knew then that Jack would be tortured for exposing his body. After a few days, things seemed to be clearer.
Dream of Paris (2003)
I know he's the kind of actor who is meticulous and wants to know everything and wants to explain, so every time there's a sexier scene, I have to work on explaining. It's unbearable. I don't blame him. I would have the same reaction. I couldn't be naked in front of the camera. I understood Jack, and then I thought of a thick-lipped child in New York. Later I watched Michael Pitt's "Rampage," and he did a great job.
"Rampage" (2001)
Reporter: Did Jack participate in the filming?
Bertolucci: No, that was a few months before booting.
Reporter: What about the rest of the actors?
Bertolucci: Louis Garrell was finalized in the first round of auditions in Paris. The heroine took a little longer, and I watched a dozen or so actors.
Reporter: Did you talk to Jack about your troubles?
Bertolucci: Well, he agrees with me too.
Reporter: Do you think this is a common problem of American actors? Concerns about nudity?
Bertolucci: Well, I don't know. I don't think this problem is more pronounced with American actors. I remember when I was working on The Last Tango in Paris, Jean-Pierre Lyod almost rejected me. He said he couldn't go naked, absolutely not. He is French.
The Last Tango in Paris (1972)
Reporter: What attracted you the most about this story?
Bertolucci: I think it's like the 1968 version of Cocteau's The Terrible Child. So these two elements were very exciting to me, about the complex relationship between the three of them, and before filming I read Cocteau's book, There's a line in The Terrible Child that through this script I want to give light gravity and give life a sense of lightness.
When I'm making movies, all I remember is approaching lightness and staying enthusiastic. When someone told me about the relationships of the characters in The Last Tango in Paris and the pornography involved, I saw darkness and tragedy. Because Malone's character is very destructive. If I were to talk about sex in Dream of Paris, I would think of lightness and pleasure.
Reporter: Would you associate or contrast these with the June 8 Movement?
Bertolucci: I think it has a lot to do with the June 8 Movement. Sex is considered revolutionary. Sex is synchronized with politics, music, movies, and everything is combined. You can mix everything together. It was a great honor to be able to live at that time. It's not their fault that today's children are missing out on something – they're missing out on a chance to realize their big dreams, they're missing out on wanting to change the world.
Reporter: Does the NC-17 rating impose any restrictions on you?
Bertolucci: At first I thought searchlights would abandon an NC-17 movie because of restrictions. But then they explained that the NC-17 wasn't yet to the X level, and that there were very few film exhibitors who had problems with the NC-17. Adults have the right to watch movies that adults watch.
Recently I heard that this movie can't be released in this country in its entirety. It would sound strange if the only country in the world to be edited was the United States, and possibly Iran. Of course, I'm also happy because I think [the release of NC-17 films] is a good precedent for companies like Searchlight. Now they're more likely to release some movies that wouldn't otherwise be released here.
Reporter: Why is there such a turn - working with Searchlight Pictures?
Bertolucci: I think, in the end, people don't just respect my work. The media will attack them because the United States will be the only country that will not see the film.
Reporter: When people take to the streets, the protagonists get a certain sense of instability in the apartment. How did you get three actors to act so funny in the scene, and at the same time so exposed and so naked? Are there any cases where they don't cooperate because they are naked?
Bertolucci: I don't know. What I can tell you is what I want to do. While the three children explore each other in the apartment, the outside world is preparing for something. One night we could see the children running, waving red flags, and the police chasing them. Theo was insulted when he went to school, they didn't belong to a camp — where are you, you disappeared. When there was an explosion in the street, history was calling them, in effect saving them from their apartments.
Reporter: So they learned about the current situation at that moment?
Bertolucci: Yes, they are both private and collective, independent and public. They are a mixture of everything. Their values are also different.
Reporter: Does this have anything to do with the protests that are happening now? Do you think today's kids will regain that sensitivity?
Bertolucci: It's a big minority. Every time there's a summit of eight countries, you see a lot of kids coming together against globalization. In fact, in Genoa in 2001, the police were very violent. The film's final shot is of an accusation against the police. I thought of Genoa. These groups are very interesting because they are very different and are minorities.
In some ways, they are associated with the June 8 Movement. Even if the values have changed now. Today it is more about finding a balance of wealth in the world. Then there are other things, but there are young people all over the world dreaming about it.
Reporter: But are kids connecting with movies differently today?
Bertolucci: Yeah, that was interesting because I was there. You remember in 1968, it all started at the cinema. That was the first time the police had become so violent. They were all students, film fans, Intellectuals of Paris. It all started there and then spread everywhere, Rome, Germany, Berkeley, Colombia. All ambitions and ideas are closely related to film. It's like an illusion projection with cinematic value.
Reporter: Some people say that the '60s were a bit selfish in a way. They took away sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, and left idealism and politics behind.
Bertolucci: I don't think at that time, freedom or wanting to be free, and politics wasn't a big part of that. What did the June 8 Movement leave behind? I think the relationship between people and people after 1968 was very different. Before 1968, there were people everywhere who embraced power, and then they disappeared. As for the relationship between men and women, 1968 sparked something, including a women's liberation movement. Those who say that the June 8 Movement failed is very unfair, and it is by no means a historical error. "1968" was a revolution, not a political one, but a very important change.
Reporter: Have you ever encountered a situation where you wanted to work with an actor and was rejected? Will they ask themselves how far they need to take it off?
Bertolucci: Never. Not all my films have nude parts. It's so weird because I read some of the film reviews in this country and found that someone thought the movie was made by a dirty old man. I never thought I'd be seen that way. They asked if it was really necessary to show nudity? I wonder if Picasso was asked such a question when depicting nudity. Did they ask Rubens why he drew nude women?
But this kind of sex is very provocative, and your intention is to stir up some of the idealism that existed in the '60s?
Bertolucci: I was amazed that showing a nude was the most natural and naïve thing for me, but still provoked a sort of Puritan reaction. There seems to be a taboo about this NC-17 movie, because the last film I released here was a decade ago. Why, because they feel that many film exhibitors will not show this movie? Magazines or newspapers don't advertise?
It's not true, Searchlight Pictures told me they had no problem. Why would it be a problem to show a film that is shown in the same way around the world? Theaters everywhere are open as usual. Why is this a problem in this country? What makes Michael Pete's body so obscene? I don't understand.
Reporter: What about the problem of incest?
Bertolucci: I want to ask, what is incest? How can you talk about incest between twins? They spent nine months together in the womb. That's very intense "incest." After they are born, they continue to play. Michael Pitt told them that if you don't stop playing like children, you'll never grow up. It's not incest, twins are rare. Eva Green has a twin sister.
Reporter: Really? Did she talk to you about the twin experience?
Bertolucci: Yes, she told me something. Louis Garrell was the son of Philip Garrell, a director I greatly admired during the June 8 Movement. Eva Green's mother was a French actress.
Reporter: You don't masturbate in front of your own brothers, do you?
Bertolucci: Yes, but I'm talking about the special relationship between the twins. It's a punishment.
Reporter: Do you want to emphasize innocence?
Bertolucci: Of course, there is a conflict between the naïve American country boy and two fallen Parisian children, whose families are both wealthy and learned. Then you'll find that, in fact, they're pretending to be smart. The girl was a virgin. Everything is a kind of irony, she is the master, it is all a construction. The moment she became a woman, she became calmer and more relaxed. I think Eva Green is doing well.
Reporter: The scene where she first takes Matthew into her room is a different side of her that we don't see. She's pretending to be cool. When she heard that particular song—belonging to her and her brother, played by a woman with whom he was, I thought it was enough to illustrate how immature they were. At this point, they're really just playing games, do you agree?
Bertolucci: She heard voices in her brother's room?
Reporter: Yes, when she took Matthew to her room, the private sanctuary, to show her what she really was. Then heard the song in the next room and suddenly got angry and threw Matthew out.
Bertolucci: Well, she was shocked, couldn't control herself, and slammed the door shut. I think it's a very popular drama moment. Like you said, they don't play together anymore and she can't take it.
Reporter: And the scene of the tent — the little tent they set up, and when she found out that her parents saw them, the shame she felt, was it a child's sign or an adult's sign?
Bertolucci: She said earlier that Michael's character asked her what she would do if her parents found out what she and her brother had done. She said they didn't need to know, and Michael insisted on kissing. She said she would kill herself. If you remember, I think in a way, she was more loyal to her brother, and he was more free.
Reporter: Are any of these characters reminiscent of yourself in the late '60s?
Bertolucci: No, remember I said at the beginning of the movie that Eva was dominant. In fact, those videos were all black and white, and there were some clips we couldn't use because we couldn't find the copyright source. One of them was a Betty Davis movie, and Eva, like everyone else, hadn't seen them. In the first part of the film, she tried to occupy that dominance, but later the betty Davis clip was removed from the final version.
Reporter: Have you had any difficulties in obtaining the rights to these clips and Jimmy Hendricks' songs?
Bertolucci: I can't use Hey Joe. In the bathtub scene, we had to explain the ins and outs of these songs, and they said it was impossible. The song was later covered by Michael Pitt. Now almost every American actor is a singer, a lot of them, so he told me if he could let him try it, and in the end he sang well.
Reporter: Where does this film stand in your sequence?
Bertolucci: My only goal is to have no goal. The goal of each time is the movie of the moment, and the moment. So far I don't even know what I've done. I can't watch my own movies. I spent some time with Almodóvar. We've talked about how hard it is to look at our past works because they look bad. They take me so seriously, but I don't take myself seriously.