Chen Luyu, Zhu Yujie and Yu Xiuhua are hosts, curators and poets. As a new partner of WONDER WOMEN, she puts forward the questions, discussions and questions of the expressors from different identities and perspectives: how to view women's issues under Internet public opinion, how to return to individual feelings and accept themselves, and what is the "new feminism" in their understanding.
Blouse with bud sleeves, trousers
All are Carolina Herrera
What are the most meaningful and special years for you on the 20th anniversary of ELLE's "Lu Yu Have a Date"?
Lu Yu Every step of the way is important. By this stage, I have been able to look at it calmly, rationally and objectively, and each step has its meaning. From the specific state of creation, it depends not only on yourself, but also on the small environment and the big environment, and more often the individual and social environment and destiny are closely linked. My generation of media people has gone through the entire process of accelerating the industry from the beginning to today, and I have learned at every stage.
ELLE: What has been the biggest change and growth you've felt along the way? What changes do you like and which ones you don't like very much?
Lu Yu: What I like about the change is that I am more expressive than before. It's weird to think about it, because I work on television — a talk-based job, but most of the time I ask the other person to say that I don't have much expression. And for a long time I considered myself a person without desire for expression. But then I thought, no, maybe it's just that people interact with society and the world differently at different stages, and sometimes observation is also an expression and a kind of participation. As for what I don't like, I don't think so, now I can accept everything about myself, but there will be regrets, unfortunately I should have accepted and relieved earlier, but people are like this. The ultimate task in life is to reconcile with myself, and although I can't say that I have completely reconciled, I understand that I want it after all, and I hope that this day will come sooner.
ELLE, an interviewer who listens to expression, an author of autonomous expression, and an exporter of content, how do these two identities interact with each other in you? Do you think there is a clear boundary between the two identities, such as at what moment did you feel the subtle transition between the two identities?
Lu Yu When I first entered this industry, I was very young, and all the people sitting across from me were far higher in achievement, life experience, and age, and all I did was ask questions and listen. At that time, all my so-called output still belonged only to that age, and I would prefer to hear what the person on the other side had to say. Slowly to different stages, even if the identity of the other party does not change, but at this time when you have more expression, the audience will not feel offended, which is particularly subtle. Our generation of TV personalities is involved in the process of nurturing viewers, and viewers are growing, their acceptance is greater, and their needs are expanding. At the beginning of "Lu Yu Has a Date", the audience wanted to listen together, but today, 20 years later, the audience will want you to express. At a certain stage, people will always have something they want to say, want to participate, and want to spit it out.
ELLE: So is "Chen Luyu's Movie Sofa" a new expression platform created by combining your interests and hobbies?
Lu Yu: The reason is that I like movies very much. In the past, I didn't think this was an advantage, just regarded it as a "game" in life, but my team felt that it was interesting to listen to me talk about movie-related topics, so they proposed "it is better if you say that we will record it for you", which is also in line with the way of self-media communication. In order to do a show, I have to watch the movies I have seen again, which is especially interesting - you will connect the knowledge of the past through this movie, and you will find that the times and yourself have changed. For example, the four protagonists in "Sex and the City" used to teach us how to be independent women like a textbook, which I admired immensely, but now watching the new season, I feel that I have grown up, why they have not changed.
Sweaters, fringed leather skirts
Both are Bottega Veneta
Pointed-toe heels Giuseppe Zanotti
ELLE: You said on "The Round Table Party" that you cry when you watch movies now. Compared to your previous self, what details or little things in life will bring out the soft parts of your heart?
Lu Yu Yesterday I watched "London Life", and there was a plot where I cried. My tear points have indeed become lower, which may have something to do with age. As I get older and more experienced, I am more able to taste the good and bad in life, and face it with a more humble and vulnerable attitude than before. When I was a child, I actually didn't know the height of the sky and the depth, but now I will be touched and infected by some small things.
ELLE Have you given yourself a hard shell before?
Lu Yu is not intentional either. All the education received by the post-70s generation from childhood tells you - strong is very beautiful, our generation already has a sense of gender equality, the aesthetic at that time is that women should be stronger to be cooler, talented, so when I was a child, I would feel that showing the weakness and fragility in the character was not cool enough, and over time it would be "used to nature", plus I may be stronger by nature... In short, I molded myself into that way. The aesthetic standards of this era are different, people will always change with the times, but it is still difficult for me to show my vulnerability in public, and I may be more comfortable accepting my fragile, soft, and vulnerable parts when I am alone. People are complex, you can't show yourself 100% completely in this life, even when facing yourself, the instinctive self-protection mechanism is still in the state of activation.
ELLE So you've never longed or had the luxury of knowing yourself more completely and authentically.
Lu Yu When a distant person is particularly eager to get close to you and get to know you, my instinctive defense mechanism will be activated. In general, I still seem to be an introvert, I don't think I have a connection to the whole world, no one is worthy of being understood by the whole world, the world does not need to understand you, we want to understand the world, but the world can ignore everyone, so understand that you are not someone else's obligation and responsibility.
ELLE has frequently heard the phrase "being misunderstood is the fate of the expressor" in recent years, do you agree with this statement?
Lu Yu This is a chicken soup flavored golden sentence that everyone will agree with after hearing it, and then it is constantly forwarded. Everyone thinks they are "misunderstood" when they say this, and almost no one realizes that more often than not, we are misunderstood people. The threshold for "expressors" in this sentence is actually very high, and there are not many people in this world who are worthy of being called expressionists. People are more often forwarding a paragraph they see on a public account, and it is a very stunned sentence taken out of the preamble. You will find that there is often a sentence that is constantly forwarded in a period, and I am particularly resistant to this, especially resisting more and more deviations from the original meaning in the retweet, and only choosing what is beneficial to me. In fact, we are all misunderstanding others, and we are also complaining about being misunderstood by others, which is the ultimate truth in people's relationship, but no one will want to avoid it later, and will pay attention to the preface and afterwords when listening to others. None of us should overestimate ourselves, because we are all the ones who misunderstand others.
After more expression, do you worry or fear that you will be misunderstood?
Lu Yu will. Now that people have all kinds of technological means, when we used to express it, we only need to think about the fact that your words are cut off before and after at this moment, and they still won't be misread. But now there is no way to guard against it, the only way is not to say it, but I can't do it, then I can only resign myself to fate, try not to violate some of the conventional bottom lines of this era - law, morality and my inner perseverance. I want to have some kind of connection with society, and I always have to express something. To be realistic, one day I may not be able to do shows anymore, I will no longer speak on the public platform, this most direct bottom line result can I accept, I think it can, then I will express it as much as possible on this standard.
Anest Collective, turtleneck knitting
Sleeveless vest Max Mara
Wide-leg trousers Loro Piana
ELLE FREQUENTLY HEARS YOU MENTION THE WORD "ERA" DURING THE CONVERSATION JUST NOW. As a person who has grown up and matured from the traditional media era, how is your adaptation to the current media environment?
Lu Yu I decided and prepared from a very early age: there will be times when I will not embrace this era, I accept being eliminated, and I will not always keep up with the times. The game is fair, and when the rules of the game change, either change yourself and accept the new rules to play together, or one day it will not take you to play. I thought about it and felt that there were some changes I could, and some I couldn't accept and didn't like, so I could follow the times as long as I could, and one day the times said "I'm sorry, you don't accept the rules, I won't take you to play", I completely accepted it. There are many things I can not do or say, but I will definitely not turn myself into something I don't recognize.
ELLE In today's media environment, everyone can have a voice, and women's voices, opinions and consciousness are getting stronger and stronger, will you feel such voices and changes in the past few years?
Lu Yu: Right. On the one hand, it represents the correctness of this era, and on the other hand, it has indeed become a kind of "traffic code" - supporting women's rights will win applause and praise. When we continue to emphasize a certain point of view, it will definitely affect the whole society over time, and many words that were blurted out before are now difficult to say. Ten years ago, people said I was too thin, and everyone would agree with casual comments about women's figures, but now I don't think anyone dares to say that anymore. This is a particularly good change, and now I will definitely respond to it, so I will feel that language will definitely affect thinking, will definitely change actions, including our aesthetics, and will eventually bring about qualitative results.
ELLE The term "independent woman" has been around for many years, and the definition of an independent woman has changed in this era.
Lu Yu: My understanding of independent women has also changed. My education was relatively extreme, and I used to think that it was cool that women should do their careers, and that family chores, buying vegetables and cooking were not the best, that was true independence. I was also misled to some extent and made me ignore the trivial details of life, but that is exactly the true meaning of life, which is a pity. I am independent from the heart, but at the same time I have paid a price, so each generation has its own problems.
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ELLE What is your writing rhythm now? Where does the desire to pick up your pen come from?
Yu Xiuhua I never have a rhythm in writing, and I write when I want to. Now I write more essays, there is no special desire, it is the same as eating, it is a daily life. Generally write a little in the evening.
ELLE: How do you see the relationship between poetry and everyday life?
Yu Xiuhua Poetry is an expression of everyday life, and there is no definition between them. In other words, poetry is to make everyday life a little clearer.
What is there in the ELLE countryside that you feel particularly nice and enjoyable, and is there something you want to escape?
Yu Xiuhua The countryside is closer to nature, close to flowers and trees, and the changes of the seasons in nature are fascinating, and its scenery and smells can comfort people's hearts. Of course, my home now has no land, so there is no hard labor, and there is nothing I want to escape.
ELLE: Have you ever encountered creative pressure or bottlenecks? Or in the face of widespread public expectations, do you care?
Yu Xiuhua I don't think writing is a deliberate act, it's just a tool to sort out life, and the bottleneck you say is a self-righteous problem, not smart at all. So what broad expectations, pointing to unclear, this question is stupid.
ELLE: How would you describe your current state of life? What kind of life do you want to pursue or are pursuing?
Yu Xiuhua My current state of life is relatively satisfactory, peaceful and calm. This is the state of life I want, life is not something that one can get if you want to pursue, it is better to go with the flow. What I pursue is to read quietly and write, and I have done it.
ELLE What makes you feel lost or confused?
Yu Xiuhua At this age, confusion itself is a state of existence, and I didn't think about making life too clear, which is stupid. Lost and confused is originally a state of life, there is nothing bad about it.
In previous interviews, ELLE agreed that "you prove your existence through love or love", do you still think so?
Yu Xiuhua: You have a wrong understanding of this sentence. And why don't I think so now?
ELLE: Has your understanding of love changed?
Yu Xiuhua I have never understood love, nor can I talk about change. When you fall in love with someone else, do you first think about what love is?
ELLE recently posted a comment on "beauty" on your Weibo, when did you start to realize "beauty"? What kind of "beauty" are you after?
Yu Xiuhua I realized beauty in my mother's womb, you go and ask my mother about this, and she confirms it. Beauty is a natural presentation, not a pursuit. What kind of beauty, is beauty still divided into categories?
ELLE Your work confronts women's desires and wildness, and these are the parts that have been neglected and repressed by all women for a long time, and they are things that all women need to face together, what do you think of this problem?
Yu Xiuhua My work is only about human nature, not about women.
ELLE society is full of stereotypes about women, which ones are the most unacceptable to you?
Yu Xiuhua: I will not answer your preconceived question.
ELLE: Do you agree that this is an era where women's voices are getting stronger? As a creator, what kind of voice do you want to make available to the public?
Yu Xiuhua What they want to hear will naturally be heard, and I am not responsible for providing it.
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White turtleneck sweater, crewneck sweater, long pants
All are Loro Piana
Black boots Prada
Serpenti Viper 18K white gold bracelet and ring
All are Bvlgari
What are the different experiences of ELLE's two jobs and identities, writing and curating?
Zhu Yujie is completely different. Writing is very lonely, a game with yourself - as long as you sit in the study, you don't need to explain to anyone, but curating requires a lot of time to communicate with multiple parties. I feel that curation has pulled me out of the bookish life that belongs to only one person, allowing me to integrate into society at once, and to live more grounded. I think writing should be an introductory skill for a curator because the process of writing is a process of thinking. Another point is that writing exists in two-dimensional space, all imagination is expressed through words, but curation is different, you need to convert all ideas into spatial content, to create a field, perceptual field, the audience needs to mobilize the various perceptions of the body to feel the real three-dimensional space.
ELLE In 2022, you have done a total of 7 exhibitions, which can be called a "model worker" curator.
Zhu Yujie Three of the seven exhibitions are group exhibitions, and I like to do group exhibitions very much, because group exhibitions are as challenging as doing special topics. Two of them are group exhibitions of artists by women, both of which discuss women's issues, such as "Metaphor and Gaze" in Shenzhen, which discusses the creation of female subjects. Women have always been othered by gaze in art history, so I wanted to make an exhibition full of metaphors and reflections, gazing at myself, other women and the world through a female perspective. The art itself is very personal, but it is very touching in that you will find that the common destiny and common experience of women will be presented in many art forms. Every work by a female artist, I think it represents a female experience.
Beige knitted polo shirt, beige knit skirt
Both are Maison Margiela
Green high heels Prada
ELLE, as a curator, looks at their work through these contacts with female artists, what do you think of the identity of "female artist" now?
Zhu Yujie Women are biological sex, it is a very objective, natural, and original state, so I am very comfortable accepting this "female" word, and I don't have any disgust for it. Many artists resist being added such a gender prefix because the status of women has long been low, and women need to face both professional and gender challenges on the road of artistic development. So to be able to go to a more distant place, they have to overcome many difficulties, so they are afraid of adding a prefix, in essence, they are worried about being slighted and underestimated.
ELLE: In your opinion, the overall state of female artists is significantly better than before?
Zhu Yujie It must be getting better and better, but it is certainly not enough. Judging from objective data, they still have fewer opportunities than male artists. It's hard to believe that a hundred years ago women didn't have the right to vote, two hundred years ago in Jane Austen's time women didn't even have the right to go out of the house, so the advancement of women today is based on generations of continuous efforts to prove their abilities, open up the wisdom of the people, and then empower other women. We have enjoyed the results of their struggle, and we cannot stop. We have also seen that in recent years, many places have begun to regress again, but the progress of history has been wave-repeated.
What difficulties and bottlenecks do contemporary female artists encounter at ELLE?
Zhu Yujie For example, there are few exhibition opportunities. Like the generation of female artists after the 80s, there were originally many female classmates in the class, and the further back they went, the fewer they persevered, and in the end, they were left alone to do art, and they didn't do it when they had children or got married. For example, some collectors consider whether female artists will stop creating after giving birth, or lack of energy will lead to a decline in creativity, so they do not collect their works, feeling that their works do not maintain their value. Some female artists have told me that they find that male artists and male curators are very united, and that when there is an exhibition, a group of acquaintances do it together, and there is nothing for female artists.
ELLE: When did you start perceiving and accepting femininity in yourself? What do you think about the degendering that has long been in the commons and at work?
Zhu Yujie In fact, I was also taught to be like a boy since I was a child, I remember when I was in elementary school, my mother cut my hair short, and then I was always indoctrinated with the idea that I don't care about my appearance, but spend my time studying. This led to a later feeling that I loved to dress up very much, was it a problem, and over the years I have gradually reconciled with myself. I think women should start from themselves, first do not belittle women's characteristics, and then use their own profession to prove, rather than these external things, calmly face women's voices, looks or looks, and change the stereotypes of women in the whole society little by little.
ELLE When women's voices continue to get stronger, there are many extreme situations. On the issue of feminism, what are the things that may be overkill, in your opinion, need to be vigilant?
Zhu Yujie Every time there are different views in the women's movement, some are radical, others are relatively conservative. The more discussion can gradually attract attention, and it is certainly a good thing to be discussed. Now many men will also be attacked, such as when praising women beautiful, men will be a little nervous, afraid of saying the wrong thing, there will also be too high on the line, some things are originally individual choices. In fact, empowering a woman is to return the subject power to the woman, she can choose the life she wants, rather than interfering with her choice under the banner of women's rights, otherwise it is contrary to the original intention of women's empowerment.
ELLE: What would you think of neo-feminism? If you were curating an exhibition for ELLE, what would be your vision in mind?
Zhu Yujie New feminism should be a state of self-consistency, where everyone has a choice. I may present a richer medium in the exhibition—some feminine media, which have been devalued in the past, but I think that women should not be considered secondary in the medium and theme of their creation, and many of their expressions actually reflect more timeless themes in human nature. Many men will care about history and politics, but women could not go out of the house before, they were more concerned about the changes around their lives and emotional states, and this kind of artistic creation is often devalued, but now people are more and more aware that the most important thing in art is the ability to think, think, be creative and finally practice. In particular, I hope to make an exhibition for ELLE that expresses the power of women from a soft perspective, and no longer devalues femininity or media related to women's lives.
Are there new qualities in ELLE's new generation of female artists?
Zhu Yujie They are exposed to different information, many of them have a background in studying abroad, pay attention to many issues, such as environmental protection, anthropology, etc., and everyone's interests are becoming more and more detailed.
Black coat, white shirt Prada
Grey skirt Fendi
How much can ELLE audiences feel what you're trying to convey in an exhibition, and do you expect that?
Zhu Yujie First of all, I definitely hope that they can understand the theme and have a certain connection with my emotions. Of course, I also want them to be able to develop their own feelings, which is very important, and this is why art is alive. As a female curator, what I can insist on is my feminine expression.
ELLE Are you afraid that your expression will be misunderstood?
Zhu Yujie Being misunderstood is a fate. As a curator, I have to be wary of my misreading or over-interpretation of artists. Every work placed in front of you, what you see must be a mirror image, a certain emotion of your own present, judged by the knowledge structure of past experience. I can't restore the moment when the artist created, and readers and viewers can't restore my state and thinking at that time, everyone must have their own interpretation, there is an inevitable error. This doesn't have to be all negative, but it can be positive. Heidegger said that "a work of art can only be called a work if it faces its holder", which means that it must be interpreted and interpreted by the audience according to his own understanding, so that the whole work is complete.
ELLE: Do you think feminism is being misread by everyone to some extent now?
Zhu Yujie As long as it is feminism, there is no right or wrong. Feminism is actually advocating equal rights and the emancipation and exploration of women's thoughts, but everyone may understand or approach it differently. As for the kind of misreading you mentioned, I think everything has a level of not being understood.
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Curated by: ELLE Task Force
Photography: Jiang Nan (Lu Yu), Zhou Qi (Zhu Yujie), Yu Xiuhua (Hu Tao)
Styling: ZHOUXU (Lu Yu), TT (Zhu Yujie)
Makeup/Hairstyle: Chen Long (Lu Yu), SHARON XU (Zhu Yujie)
Interview/Written by: Xiaoyang
EDITED BY SHERRY, LALA
Design: SHU