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Envious of such an experience? I've been in the Navy, I've Seen a Nuclear Explosion, I've Never Left Ordnance in My Life: An Interview with David Cumberland (Part 1)
Links 👆 to the previous issue of this article
The first part of this article focuses on Dave's early experiences, including his participation in the nuclear tests conducted by the US military in the Pacific, his serendipitous coincidence of founding the company "Old Western Ammunition Collector", his precious collection...
The next part continues into Dave's collecting world -
Dave Cumberland (Standing) dressed in a military uniform at a 1979 rally of military fans, with the M3A1 half-track tractor behind him
Reporter: After the opening of your "old-fashioned Western ammunition collector", everything is still going well, right?
Dave: There were a lot of smooth times, but not all of them, and I had a dispute with the predecessor of the current Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Weapons and Explosives (ATF).
One day in 1965, I was taking care of business in the shop when someone peddled me a Leixing M50 submachine gun with burst firing removed. At that time, it was not necessary to register the automatic gun that removed the continuous firing function, and the Leixing M50 submachine gun had many rusts on the body and some parts had been deformed or lost, which was very bad. For the sake of insurance, I reported and filed with the police department after the purchase at a low price, and they also issued me a license to sell the gun. Since I was in desperate need of funds at the time, I quickly refurbished the Reiching M50 submachine gun to a buyer for $50. But just two months later, someone came up to me and said, "Did you sell this Reshing submachine gun?" I looked at the gun in general and said, "Yeah, what's the matter?" He added, "Please take a closer look at this gun." Then he opened a paper bag, and the Reshing M50 submachine gun appeared in front of me, which was obviously modified, and the magazine of a Thomson submachine gun was inserted into its gun. Just then, several police officers broke in outside the store, they pushed me down on the counter and searched me, and then put me in a prison in Oakland City for interrogation all night. The next day, I was released on bail, where they accused me of illegally selling fully functional automatic firearms because it was a felony to sell automatic firearms to unqualified people at the time. I argued that the gun was indeed sold by me, but that the person who modified it was not me. In the end, I had to hire a lawyer to defend me. I remember the court in San Francisco, and I couldn't pay for a lawyer because I really didn't have the money at the time. But there was no end to the situation, and a local FBI agent happened to know me well, and I often helped them solve their gun problems, and I also served as their consultant for free in several cases. After learning about my situation, he went to the relevant department to speak for me. Perhaps it was his rhetoric that worked, and finally the judge said to me, "Mr. Dave Cumberland, you have confessed to the fact that you have broken the law, but you personally have no will or motivation to commit the crime on your own initiative", and I hastened to say: "Yes, Your Excellency". He went on to say, "Well, I'll give you two years' probation, during which time you shall not engage in any activity related to automatic firearms." Fortunately, similar incidents have never happened again.
The signboard and exterior of the old Western gun shop, the predecessor of the company "Old Western Ammunition Collector"
So how was your business doing in the mid-1960s?
Dave: The 1960s were a period of rapid social upheaval in the United States, when social order was very bad, and we moved our gun shop a few times. Probably in 1967 or 1968, there was also a riot in my city of Richmond. I remember one night the local police came to me and said, "We learned from the wire that someone was going to rob your shop, and their target was automatic firearms that had their burst function removed." "Of course I don't want to sit still and try to find a way to protect myself. At that time, I had a dozen Winchester M1897 shotguns and 8 second-hand G3 assault rifles (of course, these G3s could only be fired single-shot), and I called 3 guys to divide some guns and ambush them in various corners of the store, waiting for the arrival of criminals. In the middle of the night, sure enough, a group of people came to the outside of the store and smashed the door, and we made a beautiful ambush according to the pre-agreed tactics, and those people saw that we had been prepared and gave up the plan to rob.
A partial close-up of the M1895 Maxim machine gun made from brass parts that Dave had collected
Reporter: I heard that you have also cooperated with Hollywood, haven't you?
Dave: Yes. At that time, in order to survive, I had to expand my client resources as much as possible, and Hollywood studios were my big customers, and I mainly provided them with the sale and rental of props. I still remember that the first film company I worked with was Ellis Mercantile, later Ellis Props & Graphics, who bought a shipment of ammunition from me.
Dave made an ad to market all kinds of vintage ammunition he had collected
Reporter: I heard that you have also obtained some old guns, do you still have some?
DAVE: Yes, I got an old 115mm howitzer and an M1895 Maxim machine gun made of brass parts from an Argentine. Now, these weapons are all beloved antiques. The M1895 Maxim machine gun was sold to George Riper, the former owner of the gun shop. I didn't want to sell it to him at first, and finally he said, "Dave, I'm out of $150, and you can use that money to buy a new gun." "The big bid plus the fact that I didn't know that the M1895 Maxim machine gun was difficult to buy anymore, so I agreed to sell it to him. Previously, George had asked other buyers who owned the gun, but had been refused.
I also encountered a strange thing about this type of firearm: one day, a stranger came to my shop, and his wife came with him. He wore white cotton gloves and asked only to see the guns in the shop, not to me, and every time he wanted to talk to me, he always said it to his wife first, and then his wife relayed it to me. I remember him leaning against the wall, rubbing his hands lightly. Later, I learned that he was Louis Tonorson, who had written a book about their crazy travels and the sale of firearms.
The cover of Louis Tonorson's "Something To Do" chronicles their astonishing journey across North America in the 1960s. They purchased a total of about 72 tons of firearms and ammunition, which were eventually seized or destroyed
Reporter: Is it Louis Tonozon's "Let People Have Something to Do"?
DAVE: Yeah, that book. Tonoxen was indeed a very eccentric man, and his wife took over everything; he was reluctant to have any contact with anyone, even verbally. Tonossen collected a large number of legal but mostly unregistered automatic firearms, anti-tank rifles and dozens of tons of ammunition, estimated at a time when the government later seized his property, totalling 72 tons. Later, I visited his estate in Noble Hill in San Francisco. The government placed the seized firearms in a Coast Guard camp that I had visited, and I swear I had never seen so many firearms and ammunition of all kinds. At the auction at the camp, I bought 280,000 rounds of 8mm Mauser shells and about 100,000 rounds of armor-piercing incendiary tracer shells of the same caliber. These munitions are in very good condition and ready to use. Since my gun shop also happened to be selling Puteaux anti-tank guns at that time, I and a few partners also bought about 1600 rounds of 25mm pito shells. Now, these munitions have been around for more than half a century, and the collection value is immeasurable. In addition to these ammunition, among the firearms that can be traded, I also bought some Swiss-made 24mm anti-tank guns, which are also quite rare; 2 Solothurn S18-1000 20mm anti-tank rifles; and 1 Finnish 76.2mm naval deck gun. The deck gun later appeared in the film Gunboat St. Paul, and its barrel was short, only about 127 to 150 mm long.
In 1971, Dave collected old artillery. He shipped them back and sold them to interested people after refurbishing them, such as the Hatches reloader gun, which he had sold to the London Tower Collection. The business also paid off handsomely for Dave
Reporter: Speaking of interesting collections, haven't you also been to the Stanbridge Firearms Collection Rental House, and let's talk about this harvest!
DAVE: It was in 1973, and the Stambridge Firearms Collection Rental House asked me to valuate the firearms and some bits and pieces in its inventory, with the intention of liquidating them. They wanted $600,000 in cash, but my valuation didn't live up to their expectations. My assessment was made in the early 1970s, when the guns and ammunition were not worth 600,000, but today it is by no means more than that. I also noticed that these leased firearms were in poor condition after they were recovered, such as a batch of single-action Colt revolvers and many M1892 Winchester rifles, which were very worn.
There are heart-planted flowers that do not bloom, and there is no heart to plant willows. Although the assessment was not very rewarding, after that, we made a big deal. San Francisco's Municipal Museum, the Golden Gate Museum, once had a collection of World War I ordnance, including various firearms, artillery and armored vehicles, such as 150mm caliber German-made anti-aircraft guns, 75mm caliber Italian-made field guns, 150mm caliber total mass 4808kg Italian-made howitzers with front-towing vehicles... There is even a tank made by Renault. These ordnances are very well preserved indoors, without rust or decay, and are of great collectible value. The museum decided that no one would be interested in the antiques, so they moved them to a warehouse in Southern California for auction. We went to the auction and got a lot of money, except for the 75mm Italian field gun, we bought almost all the guns. There's a lot of story about that auction, because there were very few people interested in these big guys, so our bid went well, but we agreed not to bid on the 75mm gun because someone wanted to buy it and donate it to the Museum of Los Angeles. In this regard, I think we can't take all the benefits, so let others buy it.
When I photographed the Renault tank, I was also moved, it was in very good condition, the surface was even painted with French camouflage from the time of the war, and its active wheel was actually not made of metal but made of hardwood. I bid $600 for it, and no one bid after that. Just as I was secretly happy, the auctioneer began to stir up the atmosphere in the field, saying: "Ladies and gentlemen, I can't believe that this precious, rare World War I ordnance has only one bidder, can you let him 'steal' it for only $600?" "His strategy worked, and soon someone kept bidding upwards. [Laughs]
In 1954, Dave drove his Cadillac on a 25mm Hatchkes gun he had acquired on the highway
Reporter: It's unfortunate, so Dave, did you get it in the end?
Dave: No, we gave up because we had already bought a lot of artillery very cheaply. That tank now belongs to Hayes Oteparik, who has been in the collection of similar ordnance for more than 50 years, and I've dealt with him.
Dave stood inside the casing of a 410mm shell
You've been known as "Dangerous Dave" for a long time, and your company is also called "Old Western Ammunition Collectors", when did you start this company?
Dave: I started running the "Old Western Gun Shop" in 1961, and the "Old Western Ammunition Collector" was founded around 1975. I started the company because there were always a lot of enthusiasts who came to my gun shop to ask for some unusual gun parts or ammunition of odd calibers, and we didn't have a stable supply of this uncommon commodity at that time, only occasionally selling some. I thought, maybe this is a promising market, so I started making these rare ammunition according to the requirements of my customers. In this way, my fame gradually grew, which is also the origin of my company's initial start. Probably in the U.S. or even around the world, my custom munitions are unique.
An 80 mm bronze B/L mountain gun produced in Austria in 1897. Dave once sold Arnold Schwarzenegger a door
Reporter: What was the company's subsequent development?
Dave: Later, in addition to customizing small-caliber ammunition, I also began to reload some large-caliber ammunition. There are some special tools, such as the Rock Crusher (which is familiar to enthusiasts). This is a small device I designed in 1974, and it is much more convenient to make custom ammunition with it. I converted the .55-inch (14.3×99mm) bullet used with the M1937 Boyce anti-tank rifle into a 0.50-inch (12.7×99mm) Browning machine gun cartridge. I also customized shells for the World War I American M1916 37mm cannon, which is as good as the original product.
In the early 1970s, Dave (right) reloaded his custom-made 37mm ammunition at the firing site
Reporter: How many SOT shows have you attended in total?
Dave: My Old Western Ammunition Collector company has been at 26 SHOWS and is still exhibiting under the name of this company.
Reporter: What kind of firearms do you like the most?
Dave: It's hard to say, but my favorite pistol is the Luger pistol, and I have a 0.30-inch Luger pistol from Switzerland in 1976; the rifle, well, I prefer my M66 Mauser rifle, which has been modified to fire 5.6×57mm, .30-06 and 9.23×62mm cartridges; and I also like small-caliber guns, such as the 37mm Hatchker rifle, which is very clever from a mechanical design point of view. I had 3 or 4 guns and tried to make some of them; of course, I liked the Gatling machine guns.
Reporter: Finally, do you still want to say something to the reader?
Dave: Today's times are very different from ours, but don't hesitate to share your knowledge and experience with others, because sometimes this knowledge or experience may be unique; and there are many things in books that you don't know, so you have to read as much as you can, and as far as guns and ordnance are concerned, the value of books is as important as practice. (End of full text)
(This article was published in Light Weapons, No. 11, 2009 (Part 2), and the public account article has been deleted)
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