The surging news learned that Mr. Xie Chensheng, 100 years old, who was known as "a living history of Chinese cultural relics protection", passed away this morning. Xie Chensheng has said many times, "Looking back on my more than seventy years of cultural relics career, I have always firmly believed that protecting cultural relics is to protect the country. As early as the 1950s, under the leadership of Zheng Zhenduo, he participated in and witnessed the rescue and return of national treasure-level cultural relics such as "Mid-Autumn Festival", "Boyuan Ti", "Xiaoxiang Tu" and so on.
"In his 100-year-old life, he actually did one thing, that is, a hundred years of fighting for the protection of Chinese cultural relics." Peng Qingyun, former deputy director of the State Administration of Cultural Relics and former director of the China Cultural Relics Newspaper, said in an exclusive interview with the surging news this morning that he heard of The Elder Xie's death after getting up today, and was very sad to hear that Elder Xie died from four to five o'clock in the morning this morning. Love the spirit of culture and cultural relics. ”
"The country and the mountains have left a trace of victory, and my generation has come back." Before his death, Mr. Xie Chensheng repeatedly quoted Meng Haoran in writing these two poems to exclaim: "Guarding the soul of national culture, leaving a victorious trace for the country and the mountains and future generations is an important step that we must take well in the process of our ancient nation's rejuvenation." In an exclusive interview with the Surging News Art Review many years ago, Xie Chensheng mentioned the root causes of the current destruction of cultural relics, he said that the fundamental problem is utilitarian-oriented, money is in charge, money not only destroys cultural relics, but also destroys everything, "The current cultural relics problem is not a cultural relics problem, but an economic problem and a social ethical culture and other aspects." ”
Xie Chensheng, a native of Wujin, Jiangsu Province, born in Beijing in 1922, is a well-known cultural relics protection expert in mainland China, and is now the honorary president of the China Cultural Relics Society and a member of the Expert Committee for the Protection of National Famous Historical and Cultural Cities.
Mr. Xie Chensheng (1922-2022)
Xie Chensheng has said many times before, "Looking back on my more than seventy years of cultural relics career, I have always firmly believed that protecting cultural relics is to protect the country. ”
According to Xie Chensheng's own account, he had a strong interest in history since he was a child under the influence of his eldest brother Mr. Xie Guozhen, and officially followed Mr. Zheng Zhenduo to engage in cultural relics work in 1946, and reported to the Cultural Relics Department of the Cultural Takeover Committee of the Beiping Military Control Commission in September 1949 under the arrangement of Mr. Zheng Zhenduo. On October 1, 1949, the People's Republic of China was founded. On November 1, the Ministry of Culture of the Central People's Government was established, and the Cultural Relics Bureau, which is responsible for guiding and managing the cultural relics, museums and libraries of the whole country, was established. On the 16th, Zheng Zhenduo was appointed as the director and Wang Yeqiu was appointed as the deputy director, and he also officially worked in the Cultural Relics Department, engaged in the research and drafting of cultural relics protection management and policies and regulations.
"Seventy years ago, on the eve of the founding of New China, Mr. Zheng Zhenduo talked to me and asked me where I would like to work in the future. Of course, I am willing to continue to work on cultural relics, but I feel that my father and brother and Mr. Zheng Zhenduo are both scholars, and I also want to do some research. But Mr. Zheng told me: 'Let's do conservation work, this matter is more important than research now, you can study protection.' These words have influenced me all my life, laid the foundation for the Cultural Heritage Bureau, and best reflected our original intention. ”
In the early 1950s, a large number of national treasure-level cultural relics such as "Mid-Autumn Festival", "Boyuan Ti", "Xiaoxiang Tu" and "Wuniu Tu" were leaked out of Hong Kong, and Zheng Zhenduo, the first director of China's Cultural Heritage Bureau, set up a "secret acquisition team" to rescue the scattered cultural relics with the assistance of Xu Bojiao and others. As Zheng Zhenduo's secretary, Xie Chensheng also participated in the important event of the rescue of these cultural relics. According to his later recollection, this history of the rescue acquisition of national treasures was "underground work" at that time, and the parties were silent, which was not known to the world until the 1980s. Unfortunately, official documents, such as original secret documents and archives, have not been disclosed, so that many important information has been falsely transmitted to this day. At the end of 2019, a number of letters from 1952 to 1958 were included in the National Library of China in Tibet, including 166 pages of correspondence and telegram stubs exchanged between Zheng Zhenduo and other officials of the Cultural Relics Bureau and Xu Bojiao. The reason why many cultural relics such as the thunderous ears, such as the calligraphy and painting "Mid-Autumn Festival", "Boyuan Thesis", "Xiaoxiang Tu", "Five Bulls Chart", "Han Xizai Night Feast Map", Xun Zhai Shan Ben, Chen's ancient coins, etc., have all escaped from the fate of ups and downs and were hidden in the country.
Opening these remaining letters, a secret twist, cumbersome and fierce "cultural relics battle" slowly unfolded.
Xie Chensheng previously recalled: "I want to tell the young people now that there is no research without protection, and without research, it is impossible to better protect and play the role of cultural relics." We must study cultural relics, but also to study the protection of cultural relics, and protection is also a university issue. Today, we explore the road of cultural relics protection and utilization in line with national conditions, and the construction of cultural relics disciplines with Chinese characteristics should be an important theoretical foundation.
Xie Chensheng is the main author of the Interim Regulations of the State Council on the Protection and Administration of Cultural Relics (1961) and the Law of the People's Republic of China on the Protection of Cultural Relics (1982), the editor-in-chief of the Encyclopedia of China , The Volume of Cultural Relics , and for the first time clearly put forward the definition of cultural relics in the "Preface" of the volume. In 2009, the Ministry of Culture and the State Administration of Cultural Heritage awarded Xie Chensheng the honorary title of "Outstanding Figure in Chinese Cultural Relics and Museum Undertakings", and the China Cultural Relics Conservation Foundation awarded Xie Chensheng the "Lifetime Achievement Award for the Protection of Chinese Cultural Heritage".
Looking back at the seventy years of development of the cultural relics cause in New China, the seventy years of history of the State Administration of Cultural Heritage cannot be bypassed by Mr. Xie Chensheng. For a long time, Mr. Xie Chensheng's many suggestions on cultural relics work have been highly valued by the party and state leaders and generally respected inside and outside the industry.
Xie Chensheng is a witness and party to many major decisions in the cause of cultural relics in New China, and is also a hero in the protection and inheritance of Chinese culture.
In 1983, the State Administration of Cultural Heritage organized seven appraisers, Xie Zhiliu, Qi Gong, Xu Bangda, Yang Renkai, Liu Jiu'an, Fu Xinian and Xie Chensheng, to set up an appraisal team for ancient Chinese calligraphy and paintings, which was responsible for the appraisal of ancient calligraphy and paintings collected by cultural institutions throughout the country.
Ancient Chinese Calligraphy and Painting Appraisal Group, 1st Xie Chensheng on the left
According to the book "Dictated by Xie Chensheng: Chronicle of Major Decisions on the Cultural Relics Undertaking in New China", in the 1950s, he drafted a report from the Ministry of Culture requesting the State Council to recommend the protection of the Beijing City Wall and the Xi'an City Wall. In 1967, he called for the protection of cultural relics and drafted a document on the protection of cultural relics by the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, which played an irreplaceable role in the protection of cultural relics in the environment at that time. Today we can still see the observatory when we pass the Jianguomen overpass, but many people do not know the story behind it. In the 1960s, Beijing was preparing to build China's first subway, the first phase of the Beijing subway, just under the observatory, and the construction unit was ready to tear down the observatory and move it elsewhere for preservation. The construction of China's first subway is such a big thing, and the construction unit has also considered the preservation of the observatory in a different place, and it is inconvenient for the average person to put forward any more opinions. Elder Xie and Mr. Luo Zhewen thought about it, and finally wrote to Premier Zhou Enlai, hoping that the National Astronomical Observatory of the Ming and Qing Dynasties, which has been engaged in astronomical observation for nearly 500 years and has maintained the longest continuous observation record, can be protected at its original site. After Premier Zhou saw it, he decided that the subway would take a detour here, and personally approved the funds needed for the detour.
Peng Qingyun, former deputy director of the State Administration of Cultural Relics and former director of the China Cultural Relics Newspaper, said in an exclusive interview with the surging news this morning that he heard about the death of Elder Xie after getting up, and was very sad, and heard that Elder Xie died from four to five o'clock in the morning this morning. He was the first to learn from Zheng Zhenduo, and he learned the spirit of patriotism and love of cultural relics from Mr. Zheng. Later, he was influenced by Mr. Wang Yeqiu, who was deeply influenced by the two people, he was desperate for the protection of cultural relics, he was really the hard bone of cultural relics protection, and he was the hardest fighter in the field of cultural relics protection in China. ”
On behalf of the newspaper comrades, Li Rang, editor-in-chief of China Cultural Relics Newspaper, thanked Elder Xie for his care and support for China Cultural Relics Newspaper. Xie Chensheng said happily that he was a must-read in every issue of "China Cultural Relics Newspaper," and that last year's commemoration of the fortieth anniversary of reform and opening up, "Looking Back at History, Looking Back at Literature and Reminiscing about the Past," and this year's "I and the Cause of Cultural Relics," essay collection activities to celebrate the 70 th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China, were all very good, and should be sorted out and published.
Gu Cunyan, editor-in-chief of The Paper, recalled that when the Oriental Morning Post Art Review was launched in 2011, a large number of pages were devoted to the protection of cultural relics, and Mr. Xie Chensheng was very supportive, specially named "Oriental Morning Post Art Review" as a consultant, and accepted interviews many times. ”
Mr. Xie Chensheng was not optimistic about the "return of cultural relics" that was later driven by the market, and he said in an interview many years ago that he directly criticized the influence of utilitarianism, saying: "The 'return of cultural relics' related to the market is not a return. ”
"Xie Chensheng's Oral Narrative: A Chronicle of Major Decisions on the Cultural Relics Undertaking in New China"
Xie Chensheng in 2019
2012 in the Three Gorges
During the 60th anniversary of the establishment of the Dunhuang Research Institute and the 100th anniversary of Chang Shuhong's birth, Xie Chensheng and Fan Jinshi studied the cave protection planning plan on the spot
In 1993, Xie Chensheng and Qin Xiaoyi, president of the National Palace Museum in Taipei, played a game and talked
Extended reading| interview with Xie Chensheng
Xie Chensheng: For the return of cultural relics, it is more important to protect the domestic ones
Gu Cunyan
For the "return of cultural relics", Xie Chensheng, honorary president of the Chinese Society of Cultural Relics, is not optimistic. Talking about the current tide of "cultural relics return", he said in an interview with The Paper Art Review many years ago: "The current market-related 'cultural relics return' is not a return. ”
Mr. Xie Chensheng was interviewed by The Paper
Mr. Xie Chensheng, who is more than 90 years old, talks in a simple environment full of cultural relics. Not long ago, the old man fell and had limited mobility.
Some people say that if Xie Chensheng's life experience is written down, it is half of the legislative history of the protection of cultural relics in New China.
Xie Chensheng, who is in his 90s, is the honorary president of the Chinese Cultural Relics Society and one of the earliest cultural relics workers in New China.
The old man now lives in an old residential building in Anzhenli, Beijing, the home is extremely simple, the cultural relics and books are piled up, the old man recently went to the hospital alone and fell, with limited mobility, but when it comes to the topic of Chinese cultural relics, he is full of anger.
Xie Chensheng began to work with Mr. Zheng Zhenduo in the protection of cultural relics before 1949. After 1949, the outflow of cultural relics from China was very serious, and his first task in the Cultural Relics Bureau was to draft the first batch of cultural relics decrees in New China: prohibiting the export of cultural relics. After that, it successively drafted the Interim Regulations on the Protection and Administration of Cultural Relics and the Law of China on Cultural Relics.
Not many good things have come back in the last 30 years
The Paper, Art Review (hereinafter referred to as "Art Review"): Elder Xie, there are many so-called "cultural relics return tide" phenomenon in the cultural relics art market now, what do you think?
Xie Chensheng: This is not called "reflux", how to count as "reflux"? This is actually the inevitable phenomenon of economic laws after globalization, wherever it is sold anyway. It's very different from the "reflow" that was plundered in the past and now we have taken back, in fact, not much of the really good things have come back in the past 30 years.
Art Review: Like when we went to the museum in Japan some time ago, we saw a lot of wonderful calligraphy and painting inscriptions, many of which should have been plundered by the Japanese army when they invaded China, and those that can be "returned" are very difficult. I have heard that after the victory of the War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression, Japan returned several batches of valuable cultural relics, but there were many miscellaneous items, and the real valuable cultural relics were quite few.
Chensheng Xie: Yes. The history of New China really said that we had the most things to say back—that is, we took the initiative to take it back, after 1949, to the year when the "Cultural Revolution" began (1966).
Art Review: After 1966, there were fewer.
Xie Chensheng: Later, there was basically none. Some auction houses have indeed made efforts to recover some regular cultural relics from overseas, but neither the quality nor the quantity is as good as in the period from 1949 to the pre-Cultural Revolution. Now some people have excessively proposed the word "return" for the auction of cultural relics and artworks, and I am very disapproving of it.
Art Review: The so-called "reflux" in the art auction market has nothing to do with the real repatriation of cultural relics. For example, have Chinese cultural relics looted by countries such as Britain, France, Japan and other countries through war returned?
Xie Chensheng: The really good things can't come back. Of course, a few pieces have come back over the years.
Art Review: What comes back is that there is evidence that it was stolen, some of it was bought for money, and some of it was coordinated by the government.
Xie Chensheng: That kind of recourse is not called recourse, nor is it called regurgitation. Reflux is natural. In the past, a large number of cultural relics were lost due to the aggression of the great powers at that time - at that time we were a semi-colonial and semi-feudal society, and there was no way. This shame is political.
Art Review: Do you think these artifacts can be recovered?
Xie Chensheng: Not all good cultural relics were robbed by the great powers, and some were originally collected in the hands of collectors.
To get it back is to get it back, to get back a part, and to get it back, we are rescued. Ask for a way to get it back. There are a lot of great things, like the "Erxi" in the Sanxi Hall, like "Han Xizai's Night Feast", these things are all good things. At that time, with the approval of Premier Zhou, we paid for it through Hong Kong.
Like Sima Qian's "Tongjian" draft, which is unbelievable, as well as the Yuan Dynasty's "Mengxi Pen Talk" and so on, they were all bought back at that time. The most famous so-called "Southern Cheng and Northern Zhou" ChengCheng's collection of books was not bought back from the negotiations in 1952 until 1955, and many of them were precious and real national treasures. So the quantity at that time was quite large, and now we buy it back is good, can be compared with those, but how many things can you really come up with? Those things were really salvaged from overseas. Now I still say that, the laws of nature's economy, you get the price very high at this time, it comes back. Today's "backflow" should pay attention to the phenomenon of inflating prices too high, just like Japan 20 years ago.
Art Review: Japan has indeed suffered a lot in this regard.
Xie Chensheng: I heard Comrade Wu Shu tell me that in The 1980s, when japan's economic situation was very good, the West made a trap and hyped up the works of Van Gogh very high, and many of them went to Japan. After getting to Japan, it turned out to be a whole japan. The United States forced the yen to appreciate, and as a result, many Japanese collectors jumped into the sea, jumped off buildings, committed suicide, and went bankrupt. These things later went back to the West at a low price – so we should be wary.
Art Review: In 2010, a Qingqianlong pastel cutout porcelain vase set a record for asian art auctions in the UK for more than 500 million yuan, and then there was no payment, I heard that a Chinese businessman was speculating.
Xie Chensheng: This kind of thing is incredible - I mean the price speculation is incredible. Be vigilant and calm about this issue.
Art criticism: The term "reflux" is also really not very accurate.
Xie Chensheng: If you go in from your auction and go out from your auction again - can this be called "backflow"? This is what a "backflow". The word "reflux" is not very precise, because the economic law you can sell anywhere, this is not reflux, the whole world is flowing. So the term "reflux" is inaccurate.
Art Review: For example, the beast head of the Old Summer Palace is also the same.
Xie Chensheng: Yes, it is impossible to say that this is "backflow". I am not in favor of exaggerating Chinese cultural relics too high, because it will still be Chinese fooled. I think there is a clause called: Whatever is plundered and illegal, you cannot take it back and sell it - otherwise, you are acknowledging its legitimacy. So this is a very important line, a bottom line. They cannot be tolerated, we can only recourse through legal procedures, whether they can be recourse or not, I always retain my right to own. We must not be vague about this.
Art Review: Some incidents are of domestic and foreign businessmen colluding with each other, speculating, buying and selling.
Xie Chensheng: You must pay attention and be careful to be deceived!
Art Review: There are also many places where there are now ground artifacts, there are many cultural relics that have been stolen and excavated, and then sold in the past, what do you think of this situation now?
Xie Chensheng: This is not okay, this is also illegal, you can't buy back the illegal things. This is a line. Illegal out, for example, smuggled out, you can't sell, I can't buy back, buy back is equivalent to admitting its smuggling, isn't this encouraging smuggling? You can't buy it. Because it can be recovered through legal procedures according to regulations, it does not matter whether it is collected or not, sooner or later there will always be a way. We want to retain our power, and that's important. Don't go too far and emphasize that this thing has to be brought back. It turned out that few things didn't come back either. For example, the head of the beast in the Yuanmingyuan, they said it was a national treasure, and I said it was a national shame. For "reflux", we must be cautious and not over-hype.
Art Review: As you said before, the main problem in recent years is the protection of cultural relics in China, rather than saying that cultural relics are "returning". As far as you know, what is the current situation of cultural relics protection in China?
Xie Chensheng: That's very problematic.
Art Criticism: What are the main questions now?
Xie Chensheng: This is a social issue. The whole society is a market economy after the change of values, the impulse of interests, which is not only true for our line.
Art Review: The same is true of the archaeological community.
Xie Chensheng: The archaeology community is also a victim of the whole people.
It is important to protect the current cultural relics well
Art Review: I remember that when Mr. Xu Pingfang was alive, I once talked to him about the so-called Cao Cao tomb in Anyang, Henan, and Xu Lao thought that the so-called Cao Cao tomb view was extremely imprecise and did not approve of it during the dialogue. Local development tourism projects can be understood, but you can think that the tomb is Cao Cao's tomb, it can be said that 90%, but it can not be said that it is 100% Cao Cao's tomb, and, after all, it has been excavated.
Xie Chensheng: So everything is looked at money - this question is all about money.
Art Review: Wouldn't that be a bit better now?
Xie Chensheng: I think it should be said that it will gradually improve in the future.
Art Review: What you just mentioned is that from the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949 to 1966, the experience of cultural relics protection and rescue in this period is worth learning, what do you think the fundamental problem is?
Xie Chensheng: I am talking about the whole society, to change people's concepts. Because in the previous stage, after the last thirty years to the Eighteenth National Congress, many people were full of food, drink and fun. A small president can be greedy for hundreds of millions, which is even worse than the old society. So these things I think are problematic with the whole social ethos.
Art Review: So do you think that this technical perspective from cultural relics protection to overseas rescue of cultural relics is worth learning from? Is there anything worth learning from the experience of the 1950s that we have now?
Xie Chensheng: Those experiences are nothing, the country can have money. Not everything is bought back – you don't have to, but sometimes it's sold legally. Normal allowed to sell cultural relics, what else do you buy back?
Art Review: Can the current problem of cultural relics not actually be a problem of cultural relics, but a problem of economic issues and social ethics and culture.
Xie Chensheng: Right.
Art Review: But now the auction is still a low period, because it was too high before, and it was always necessary to wrestle if it was too high. Now foreign countries like the United States, the United Kingdom, there are cultural relics displayed around the world, you think we in China will not have to do this in the future, for example, we collect some European and American cultural relics, Japanese cultural relics.
Xie Chensheng: I haven't said that yet, nor have I done it.
Art Review: Why? Do you think there will be later?
Xie Chensheng: I am afraid that in the short term, I am afraid that it will not.
Art Review: What is important is it to protect the current cultural relics?
Xie Chensheng: Right. You are now mainly protecting Chinese cultural relics. It's not necessary to buy someone else's.
Art Review: In recent years, the state has spent money to protect the cultural relics excavated in China, and the effort is still quite large.
Xie Chensheng: There is still some money. But now I can't afford it. Now everything has made billions and billions of dollars - crazy. This is also problematic. That is to say, I am wary of Japan and do not follow in Japan's footsteps. It's equivalent to taking money to fool you, what do you do at such a high price. What do you fry it for, some people are also inexplicable. He uses cultural relics as funds to increase in value, which is completely wrong. This is absolutely not the case. Otherwise, in the end, they will suffer losses, just like the Japanese jumping off a building and jumping into the sea.
Art Review: There is also a question, what is the biggest difficulty in our country's recovery of cultural relics that have been lost overseas?
Xie Chensheng: People are not willing to give.
Art Review: So there's no way?
Xie Chensheng: We can only show our attitude, and we can or take any way in the future. Maybe you can still come back some. But the possibility of all coming back is not very likely, and it is impossible in the short term. But something important is still possible.
Art Review: For example, what do you know?
Xie Chensheng: There are some private collections. Some are in museums, and people can't let you take them back.
Art Review: There are also some collected by overseas Chinese, and there are many more.
Xie Chensheng: Yes, it is best to mobilize people to donate, and if you don't donate, at least you don't pit people - you have to have a reasonable price.
Art Review: Now the price is also high, ancient paintings, paintings, cultural relics, the price is very expensive. Overseas Chinese also know that this is very valuable, even if you yourself are willing, he still has children, it is difficult to say.
Xie Chensheng: It's still okay. For example, this can be half donated or sold, which can be considered. In short, don't be too aggressive in this regard. I'm not very positive. There are several situations to be distinguished regarding the loss of cultural relics overseas. One is precious and one is general. One is past and one is modern. One is legal and one is illegal. It's not that we ask for the return of everything that's abroad, we never had that idea, and it's not necessary. And some things can indeed play a role in cultural exchanges, can spread the role of Chinese culture, or can.
I think the focus is first and foremost on modern, illegal outbound artifacts, which are precious to us. Precious or not, it must be recovered. For some precious cultural relics that have been legally released in the past, we also want to buy them back. Illegal and legal, the focus is on engaging in illegal first. This is a basic point of my opinion. Grave robbers are now rampant, and such recourse is an integral part of the fight against crime. This is our current priority.
Art Review: Last year, the United Nations issued a regulation to encourage signatory countries to return cultural relics to their original suzerainties.
Xie Chensheng: It is not through this means that people in Egypt have asked for a lot of cultural relics. Now we're also asking for and asking for a part of it back – that's our main way. Britain and the United States are coming back some.
Art Review: In your impression, what are the more important cultural relics to be returned?
Xie Chensheng: From the United States, we have asked for a batch of lost excavated cultural relics.
Art Review: That's not in the museum collection, right? Egypt and Greece later had the Metropolitan Museum of Art having something to come back from seventy or eighty years ago.
Xie Chensheng: We can also come back from the museum.
Art Review: Are there any cultural relics looted by the Eight-Power Alliance and the Japanese invasion of China?
Xie Chensheng: This can be asked for slowly in the future, wait. It is true that it is very difficult to recover, but I feel that we have confidence, as I said just now, is plundered, and I hope that his descendants will feel guilty, can be conscious, and return it to us through proper channels. It is unrealistic to ask for them all to get them back now. But we want to always emphasize that we have a right of recourse. ■