(Wang Xudong.) Photo / Reporter Liao Shunting)
Dialogue with Wang Xudong, President of the Palace Museum:
If different cultures respect each other, conservatism will go downhill
Reporter/Ni Wei
Published in China News Weekly, No. 1020 on November 15, 2021
"When you do things according to the rules, it's not that complicated." In the Garden of Jianfu Palace in the Forbidden City, Wang Xudong, director of the Palace Museum, told China News Weekly about the complexity of managing the Forbidden City, "If you don't follow the rules and do things according to your own ideas, it is quite complicated." ”
Interviews are extremely difficult, and Wang Xudong, who has a low-key style, rarely faces the media. However, the Palace Museum's position as the premier in the field of culture and museum and its own hot search physique always pushed him to the front of the stage.
In April 2019, the Palace Museum ushered in the handover of the "head of the door". Without warning, Wang Xudong, then president of the Dunhuang Research Institute, entered Beijing from Gansu and took over as Shan Jixiang, the "internet celebrity dean" with high public favorability. Looking back on that succession, he said he was not mentally prepared.
Wang Xudong, who is not familiar to the public, took over this highly anticipated museum in a curious and thoughtful gaze. Born in Shandan, Gansu Province, he graduated from Lanzhou University majoring in geological engineering and worked at the Dunhuang Research Institute for 28 years. He is an expert in the field of soil site conservation by engineering background, and has been publishing papers for two years, full of formulas and data. Before the age of 52, in addition to visiting the United States and Japan, most of his studies and career were in Gansu, and now he still wears a distinctLykan accent.
His two and a half years since he took office in the Forbidden City have not been smooth, and the celebration of the 600th anniversary of the construction of the Forbidden City for several years has been greatly reduced by the global epidemic, and the Forbidden City has been closed for 3 months. Especially before the epidemic, the Forbidden City was also caught in several negative public opinions.
Affected by the dual influence of the style of the ruler and the epidemic, the exposure of the Forbidden City has decreased slightly in recent years. But in fact, outside the public eye, a series of changes have taken place inside the Forbidden City. For example, the Forbidden City has lowered the daily passenger flow ceiling from 80,000 to 40,000 passengers, and will implement it for a long time. This move is for the proper protection of the cultural relics of the Forbidden City, but also to provide a better viewing experience for the audience. Wang Xudong admitted that he was under tremendous pressure and made up for the lack of access to more audiences by speeding up the construction of the "Digital Forbidden City" and other measures.
Like the previous directors of the Forbidden City, Wang Xudong was most worried about fire. Now, part of the commercial space outside the Shenwu Gate has been vacated for the use of the new fire brigade. The lighting in the main buildings such as the three major halls was completely cut off before a safer and more secure solution was found to eliminate the fire hazard caused by the use of electricity.
In addition, what changes did Wang Xudong bring to the Forbidden City?
From what he called "small places" to metropolises, from small desert towns in the northwest to the center of the capital, this "civilian dean" may have brought a civilian perspective to the Forbidden City. He has repeatedly expressed the importance of exchange and cooperation to introduce external perspectives for heritage research. He also reflected that behind the refinement of royal objects was luxury, at any cost. If we let more resources flow to the people now, will we be able to create a life aesthetic for the whole society?
As an important town of the ancient Silk Road and a hub for the integration of east and west, Dunhuang naturally contains the cultural genes of tolerance and openness. With this vision, he saw the same factor in the Forbidden City. He felt that the spiritual core of the Forbidden City was not only luxurious and grand, but also open and inclusive. At present, it is more important to build a communication platform with cultural relics and museums to promote understanding and goodwill among different countries and people. Within the walls of the palace, he looked back at Dunhuang and saw the wider world.
These ideas need to be put into practice through more concrete actions. At that time, the Forbidden City may have been a more open and diverse perspective of the Forbidden City.
On October 26, in the Jianfu Palace Garden of the Palace Museum, Wang Xudong and China News Weekly talked about cultural exchanges, epidemic situation, passenger flow, the North Campus, and reviewed the changes in mentality after taking charge of the Forbidden City.
"Culture cannot be the only one,
Whether it is small or small, it must be respected."
China News Weekly: After you came to the Forbidden City, the cooperation between the Forbidden City and Dunhuang increased significantly. The "Dunxing Hometown - Forbidden City Dunhuang Special Exhibition" that is currently on display is the dunhuang exhibition that has come to the noon gate of the Forbidden City for the second time in 70 years.
Wang Xudong: Holding the Dunhuang exhibition in the Forbidden City, in fact, our predecessors did it in the early 1950s. This year is the centenary of the founding of the Communist Party of China, and we have a tacit understanding with the Dunhuang Research Institute, that is, we want to meet again through these two world cultural heritage sites, and show some of our important achievements in protection, research, inheritance and other aspects under the leadership of the Communist Party of China.
The exhibition not only presents a dialogue between the two World Heritage sites, but also tells us that cultural exchanges and mutual learning may lead to the emergence of a new cultural form and bring us the power of innovation. We can see this kind of openness and inclusiveness in Dunhuang, and we can also see it in the Forbidden City. Chinese culture has continuously absorbed foreign cultures in history, and it has also formed the self-confidence of our culture under the mutual influence and innovative development of different regions within the country.
China News Weekly: When you expounded the cultural connotations of the Forbidden City and Dunhuang, you mentioned two key words, openness and tolerance, is this connotation also meaningful at present?
Wang Xudong: There is no doubt about this. Because we see that in history, when you are open and inclusive, the country and the nation will develop upwards; when you are closed, conservative, and conceited, it will go downhill. Where does this history come from? On the one hand, in the ancient books and documents, on the other hand, it is necessary to excavate in the cultural relics and heritage evidence, and the Forbidden City and Dunhuang have left us with physical witnesses.
China News Weekly: How is the openness and inclusiveness of the Forbidden City reflected?
Wang Xudong: The Forbidden City is the imperial palace and political and cultural center of the Ming and Qing dynasties, and we are a multi-ethnic country with multiple regional cultures, ethnic cultures, religious cultures, etc. Therefore, we can see that the excellent cultures of different regions of China, even foreign cultures, as well as religious cultures such as Buddhism, Taoism, shamanism, etc., converge and exist at the same time in this royal palace, which is a kind of openness and inclusiveness.
The culture of a nation cannot represent such a multi-ethnic family, so we must respect each other and respect the culture of peoples with small populations. Culture cannot be the only one, whether it is small or small, we must respect it. Everyone can safeguard national unity and national unity under the consciousness of the national community, and such a cultural form can be seen in the Forbidden City.
China News Weekly: What are the longer-term cooperation plans between the Forbidden City and Dunhuang?
Wang Xudong: After the opening of this exhibition, we held a very small but very important seminar, and we found a lot of research topics at the meeting. The two sides have reached an agreement to organize teams to use the cultural relics of each other's heritage sites as research objects to explore its value, so that our minds will be larger and our horizons will be wider.
China News Weekly: An outward vision, isn't it?
Wang Xudong: You will find that many things are accessible, not isolated. Using the knowledge reserves and research methods of the forbidden city scholars to study Dunhuang will surely have new results; similarly, using the perspective and method of Dunhuang scholars to look at the Forbidden City, I believe there will also be new results. This is not only a "1+1>2" problem, there may be endless possibilities.
(On September 22, people visited the replica cave of Cave 285 of the Mogao Caves at the Palace Museum's "Dunxing Far Away: Dunhuang Special Exhibition of the Forbidden City".) Figure/Zhongxin)
The Forbidden City is most afraid of fire, and the lighting of the three major halls of the central axis has stopped
China News Weekly: You have worked in Dunhuang for nearly 30 years, and in the past two years, you have been in the Forbidden City, what do you think is the difference between the priorities of the management of these two world cultural heritage sites?
Wang Xudong: There is indeed a big difference in management. Dunhuang Mogao Grottoes are not only far from big cities, but also far away from small cities, just on the edge of the Gobi Desert. Mogao Caves is a trinity of caves, murals, and painted sculptures, made of stone, earth, paint, plus some grass, hemp and so on. The Forbidden City is a huge wooden palace complex, with nearly 2 million sets of cultural relics, announced to the public is more than 1.86 million sets, in fact, there are many cultural relics in the sorting, grading, the future will definitely exceed 2 million. The Forbidden City is located in the center of the political and cultural center, attracting national attention. The environment, existence form, and material of cultural relics are different, so management cannot be copied, and the challenges are different.
But in any case, the law of cultural relics protection is consistent. There is also a particularly consistent place, that is, the Forbidden City and Dunhuang have jointly entered the stage of preventive protection. To protect cultural relics, we must grasp the law and cannot do things that violate the law.
China News Weekly: After arriving at the Forbidden City, what are you most worried about?
Wang Xudong: The biggest worry is fire, as long as there is no fire, we have time to face other protection issues. Other diseases are a gradual process, but fires are devastating. So on the first night I came to the Forbidden City, Dean Shan took me to inspect the fire and explain the safety problems.
When Dean Shan was the dean, one thing that made everyone pay great attention was the smoking ban. Successive directors of the Forbidden City have put fire prevention first. Now we still have many loopholes, and we must nip these hidden dangers in the bud by introducing the latest technology. We hope that the fire brigade will never go to the police, and once the police are released, it will prove that we are not doing a good job.
China News Weekly: Successive presidents have done a lot of work in firefighting, have there been any new means in recent years?
Wang Xudong: The most important thing now is to increase inspection efforts and reduce fire hazards. We stopped a lot of electrical appliances, especially those in important buildings, including the lighting of the three main halls of the central axis. Stop before you find a better way to light it, and don't be in a hurry. Fires caused by electrical appliances account for the highest proportion of all fires, according to statistics, 40%, if this 40% risk is controlled, the hidden danger will be greatly reduced.
The second is to strengthen civil air defense. After all, in addition to the use of electricity to catch fire, there are other risks, as well as lightning. Last year, the emergency management department added a fire brigade of 12 people outside the Shenwu Gate. We have vacated some commercial places next to Shenwu Gate to reduce commerce and ensure safety. This year, the special topic of fire safety of official-style ancient buildings, including the Forbidden City, was approved by the Ministry of Science and Technology, that is, to find the latest scientific and technological means to ensure the fire safety of the Forbidden City.
"There is definitely pressure, the higher the giant we are,' the more we 'shiver'"
China News Weekly: You took over President Fan Jinshi in Dunhuang and then went to the Forbidden City to take over As President Shan Jixiang, both of whom took on key roles in the critical stages of the development of the two chambers, so some people say that you are standing on the shoulders of giants. What is it like to stand on the shoulders of giants, and is there pressure?
Wang Xudong: There is definitely pressure, the higher the giant, the more "trembling" we are. In fact, the successive presidents of the two chambers have made important contributions consistent with the times in different historical periods. In addition, they all became deans after becoming famous and family, and I can't compare with them in terms of social experience, work accumulation, and depth of understanding of cultural relics.
I am a cultural relics conservation worker from the economically underdeveloped areas of the northwest, suddenly arrived in the capital, facing such a large heritage site, to be honest, very nervous, without any ideological preparation. After arriving at the Forbidden City, I found that the world was too big, and it was wonderful to see the interconnection between the things in the world. In this post, I am doing things for the Forbidden City, I continue to do things for Dunhuang, and I can continue to do things for the protection of cultural relics in the country, and everyone is a community.
China News Weekly: Is it much more complicated to do things in the Forbidden City than dunhuang?
Wang Xudong: When you do things according to the law, it will not be so complicated; if you don't follow the law and do things according to your own ideas, it will be quite complicated. After arriving at the Forbidden City, I have a very wonderful feeling, facing the colleagues of the Palace Museum, I feel like colleagues in Dunhuang, there is a sense of closeness, this is the atmosphere of a family that wenbo people have formed for a long time. But did I just forget Dunhuang? That is impossible, Dunhuang has raised me for 28 years, it is impossible to forget, but the focus must be on the Forbidden City.
China News Weekly: Last year was the 600th anniversary of the construction of the Forbidden City, what is the special significance of this node for the Palace Museum? After 600 years, will it enter a distinct new stage?
Wang Xudong: By 601, the Forbidden City was still the Forbidden City, of course, it was a little older. In fact, this node is also a reminder of how to find some ways to keep the 600-year-old heritage alive and well. Do a series of commemorative activities for tomorrow, not for that node.
The Palace Museum carries five thousand years of history and culture, how to excavate the connotation of five thousand years of civilization and combine it with the times? We see it open, how do we continue to open? We see the decline brought about by its closure, how to avoid it? Some things were not done under the previous conditions, can we do it now? These are left for us to think about. Historical development is continuous, but there are peaks and valleys in the middle, and we hope that through our efforts, the troughs will not be too low and the fluctuations will not be too large.
China News Weekly: After 600 years of the establishment of the Forbidden City, have you put forward new goals for the development of the Forbidden City?
Wang Xudong: We put forward four visions to build the Palace Museum into a world-class museum, a model for the protection of world cultural heritage, a leader in the integration of culture and tourism, and a living room for Chinese culture to exchange and learn from each other. We want our exhibitions and scholars to go out, and other countries' exhibitions and scholars to come in. In particular, I hope that young people will interact with each other and let them realize that different civilizations have exchanged and learned from each other in history, and that the cultural genes of the Chinese nation are the pursuit of peace. But now many people do not have a particular understanding of the world significance and value of Chinese civilization.
To create a life aesthetic for the whole society,
Let the people also share the fruits of development
China News Weekly: Over the years, the Forbidden City has also taken the initiative to make some changes, telling the story of the Forbidden City in a way that young people accept. Some documentaries and variety shows have promoted the "Wenbo fever", and the Forbidden City has played a very key role. What do you think of the rise of the "Wenbo fever"?
Wang Xudong: The rise of "Wenbo Fever" is consistent with the economic and social development of the entire country. After people's material life is quite satisfied, they begin to pursue spiritual and cultural life.
Some people say that the Forbidden City is a punch card place, I think it doesn't matter if you punch the card first, but if you stay in the punch card, it is a bit of a waste of time. The first time is to punch the clock, the second time may have to go deeper to understand, and then go to another angle to understand, and continue to deepen. From punching cards to closeness, and finally from it, we get a cultural strength and edification, which becomes something within us.
China News Weekly: Many people's interest in the Forbidden City is still stuck in qing palace dramas.
Wang Xudong: This is relatively narrow. The Forbidden City is indeed a royal palace, and this attribute can never be removed. Qing Palace drama is a kind of literary interpretation, which wants to express its own things. If you use Qing Palace drama to know the Forbidden City and the Palace Museum, you will look at it smaller. It is a temple of culture, created by the wisdom of the working people in ancient times.
Sometimes we have to look at these things from another perspective. Why is it so beautiful? Because they do whatever it takes, we see not only its beauty, but also luxury. I think it is also necessary to reflect a little, can we have a simple beauty, not luxurious beauty, if more energy is used to create a life aesthetic for the whole society, is it possible for the people to share the fruits of development? This is also an angle, don't just marvel at how beautiful it is, the craftsmanship is too exquisite. Young people have to think slowly, and it is impossible to understand it at once. Don't worry, we will constantly have something to attract young people in, but also to cultivate children's understanding of excellent traditional culture from an early age.
The daily flow limit of the Forbidden City has been reduced from 80,000 to 40,000,
I hope that all sectors of society will understand
China News Weekly: Because of the epidemic, the annual audience of the Forbidden City has dropped from a peak of more than 19 million in 2019 to more than 3 million last year.
Wang Xudong: In accordance with the requirements of cultural relics protection and the quality of visits, we have reduced the flow restriction from the original 80,000 per day to 40,000, which is not the cause of the epidemic, but according to the conditions of space, management and tourist experience, the most suitable daily carrying capacity of the Forbidden City is 40,000 people. This has already begun to be implemented. Under the normalization of the epidemic, it is implemented according to 75% of the 40,000 passengers, that is, 30,000 per day.
One of us is responsible for the ancestors, the other is responsible for the audience, and the other is responsible for our descendants. We want the audience to come to the Forbidden City to have a wonderful experience and hope that all sectors of society will understand.
China News Weekly: The highest carrying capacity of 80,000 passengers before, after all these years of operation, do you still feel that it is too much?
Wang Xudong: Yes, and everyone can't calm down and feel the visual impact and inner impact brought to us by this cultural temple.
China News Weekly: But viewers will also feel that it is getting harder and harder to grab tickets.
Wang Xudong: This is the contradiction, we are under tremendous pressure. So what to do? It is necessary to let people who cannot grab tickets experience the beauty of the Forbidden City through virtual reality through other forms. Now the construction of the "Digital Forbidden City" is accelerating, and the digitization of cultural relics has been transformed into digital products that are both informative and interesting and ornamental, and are free for everyone to share. We're also doing live streaming, planning some live streams when the flowers are in full bloom, in the most beautiful autumn, when it's snowing. Some attempts have been made last year, and I believe it will become the norm in the future.
China News Weekly: It's been nearly two years since the outbreak of the epidemic, have you brought you some in-depth thinking, and what more long-term impact and changes will the epidemic bring to the museum?
Wang Xudong: Change can be said to be subversive, because it has changed the world, and it has also changed the entire museum field. How to increase the excavation of the cultural connotation of the museum and give people more cultural strength is the first. The second is how to transform the value mined and let more people share it, which is certainly the biggest challenge in the future and our mission.
The biggest pressure is the capacity crisis, because the entire museum field is actually not prepared. Our talent structure and scale are not suitable for the requirements of the current era for the field of cultural relics museums. We have implemented the "Talent Program" to let the younger generation grow up as soon as possible through the form of teacher contracting. We are also preparing to implement the "Taihe Scholars Program" to let scholars go out, and we also hope that scholars from other countries can enter the Forbidden City, especially the interaction between young scholars.
China News Weekly: What areas are the most in-demand for talent?
Wang Xudong: The most urgent is first of all management talents, as well as cultural relics and heritage protection talents. The scale of the forbidden city's heritage is too large, and the quality and efficiency of the work can be improved if all fields are well managed. Although the team of cultural relics protection in the Forbidden City is quite strong, it is still not enough in terms of protection objects. Then there are talents in the fields of archaeology, humanities, and social sciences.
We also need a team to do transformation, that is, to figure out how to transform academic achievements into diverse forms of cultural and creative products, and we must also have a group of talents who take root in museums. Only when the talent team within the museum is established can it cooperate with social institutions to play the effect of 1+1 being far greater than 2.
The North Campus is expected to start construction next year,
Positioned as a comprehensive modern museum
China News Weekly: Due to the lack of internal space in the Forbidden City, the North Courtyard was previously planned in Haidian (located in Xiyuhe Village, Northwest Wang Town, Haidian District, the project was launched in 2018), what progress is there now in the North Campus?
Wang Xudong: At the beginning, the North Campus was planned because many large-scale cultural relics in the Forbidden City had no place to preserve, restore and exhibit, but now they are far beyond that idea. Construction should begin next year and be open to the public after three to five years of effort. At that time, the conditions for our protection and restoration, the conditions for the warehouses of cultural relics collections, and the conditions for exhibition will be greatly improved.
The construction area of the North Campus is 100,000 square meters, and the exhibition space should be able to reach about 60,000 square meters, which is many times larger than the exhibition space of the hospital, and many cultural relics that the audience has never seen before in the future can be exhibited there. The North Campus will provide another option for the audience to go to the exhibition of cultural relics, and those who did not buy tickets to the Forbidden City, where there is a digital exhibition and can see the entire Forbidden City in the theater. It is a comprehensive modern museum. We are full of expectations, but it takes hard work.
China News Weekly: Many viewers are concerned about the 1.86 million sets of cultural relics in the Forbidden City, can they be exhibited on a larger scale in the future?
Wang Xudong: Indeed, there are still many cultural relics, because of the restrictions of the exhibition conditions, it is impossible to meet with the audience, and there are many cultural relics that have not been well protected and restored. Therefore, in the future, the North Campus project will play a major role in protecting research, inheriting and utilizing, and making cultural relics come alive.
China News Weekly: In recent years, the Forbidden City has introduced cultural relics exhibitions from Afghanistan, Greece, Russia and other countries, will we see other foreign exhibitions in the Forbidden City in the future?
Wang Xudong: In the future, international exchanges and dialogues will be more frequent and diverse, and next year's international exhibitions have been prepared, and only after the epidemic is controlled, the exhibitions can be set up. Dialogue is too important, only dialogue can eliminate misunderstandings and reduce disputes; without dialogue, all that remains is speculation and suspicion. I think that the cultural relics exchange exhibition occupies a very important position in the cultural exchange dialogue, cultural relics are the wisdom of the ancient working people, through the cultural relics can see their world view, values, and understanding of people. Many aspects are consistent, and when we find similarities, can't disputes be put aside? The problem now is ignorance of each.