"Art Travel Talk" is a cultural interview column launched by Art Travel.
Since the establishment of Art Travel, we have been pursuing all the beautiful traditional cultures such as humanities, arts and history. And when I look back, the "beautiful people" are around.
They may be lecturers we invite to make a difference in a particular field, or they may be deep users who participate in our activities. They continue to practice the "unity of knowledge and action" in personal cultivation, and pursue a high degree of integration between individuals and ideals.
To this end, we will invite practitioners of humanities and arts from time to time to strive to present a more warm literary and artistic world.
To cure "Chinese infatuation", it is best to visit Cuba
Invited guests | Xiaoxi Listening Spring
▼
Shinobu Listen to the Spring
General Consultant of The Art Travel "Ancient Road China" Series
Historical geographer, in-depth explorer of humanistic mountains and rivers, and special contributor of China National Geographic; in the past 20 years, he has visited more than 5,000 historical sites and more than 2,500 state security units, and has crossed the Taihang 27 times and crossed the Qinling Mountains 13 times
The interviewer said
Xiaoxi Tingquan was born in the Jiangnan region, which combines humanities and natural landscapes, and has footprints throughout China.
From his student days to the present, he has visited more than 5,000 monuments and more than 2,500 state security units in 20 years. The farther you walk, the deeper your love for this country. So he used 600,000 photos to record every moment of moving the beauty of China.
He said that in the face of these thousand-year-old monuments, it was as if he could hear the sigh of the god of beauty. His "original interest" in the beauty of monuments is the reason for him to leave at any time, and it is also an inexhaustible motivation for his subsequent exploration.
/ Art Travel Talk x Shinobu Tingquan /
In the course of the interview, Shinoki listened to Teacher Quan talk and made his own views on the beginning and course of the visit to ancient times, and the national security that is worth seeing.
Q: I remember you shared before that when I was a child, I would look at the map as a comic strip, and later my professional direction was geography. Is this love your natural interest?
Shinoki Tingquan: It's not a natural interest either! This kind of thing is a kind of subtlety from childhood. If you want to trace the cause, one key word is "scarcity".
If we study history, we will find that the whole history is forced by scarcity to increase productivity. It was the same concept for me, a lack of spirit – comic strips were hard to find and there were few playmates. But at that time, there was a particularly large map of China on the wall of the home, and I would consciously or unconsciously meet with it every day, and over time I became good friends with it.
So it's not so much that an interest in maps is innate, but rather a love that is caused by scarcity.
During the study tour, Mr. Shinoki listened to Quan explaining the map
Map of China was my first good friend. When there's a lot of time spent on the map, it's time to dig deeper and look for something more interesting behind it.
For example, the Great Lakes, when you look at the map, you will find that there are many lakes in the northern Tibet region, much larger than Dongting Lake and Poyang Lake, why do we say that the Great Lakes refer to the five lakes in East China?
Then you look at Xinjiang, Taklamakan has a lot of dotted lines to identify the rivers and lakes, we call them seasonal rivers, seasonal lakes, you will have doubts, these dotted lines to identify the lakes and rivers, are there still today? Which season will it be? Or is it just a symbolic logo that has existed in history and is not there today?
And Lop Nur, which was marked with dotted lines on the map as a child, is now gone because it has dried up completely. At that time, I would think that some people said that the extinction of the ancient country of Loulan was due to water sources, and was it related to these seasonal lakes?
For example, in the southeast direction of Tibet, you will find a large area of complete blank space, and there is not a single place name. But you know, China's largest no-man's land is not there, so there must be people in that place, why is there no place name in that place? This is all a question that can be thought about by looking at the map.
Q: Did you set your sights on the "cultural security unit" at the beginning of your trip?
Shinoki Tingquan: Most people don't start traveling to target types such as bunda, unless it's a professional expedition. Because wenbao is relatively thresholded, and the spatial beauty of landscapes and naturals has no threshold, it can be instinctively sensed, and I am no exception.
The first trip was to look for things on the map, geography itself, including my desire to find the source of the Yellow River. Later, I changed to a cultural security unit for many reasons.
For example, there are many ancient bridges in the Jiangnan area, so you want to visit them; and when you read poetry, like Li Bai's sword travels far away, from Sichuan to Chang'an, from Chang'an to Songshan, from Songshan to Xuancheng... So I wanted to follow in the footsteps of these celebrities and visit the places they walked.
In addition, when I was a teenager, I was particularly interested in the military, and I also paid attention to the knowledge of military geography.
In ancient times, the requirements for geography were very high, and those military forces all imprinted geography in their minds, which places were suitable for marching, which places were suitable for supply, which places were suitable for ambushes, and also related to the location and direction of passes and ancient roads.
Because I like military, I associate travel with ancient roads, passes, etc., and trace the origins.
Another point, I paid attention to geography before, in the process of walking in the South Taihang, I found that the small temples in the mountains were very interesting, and the kind of ancient small temples that we could not see in the Jiangnan area at all. Therefore, the interest in observing the mountain slowly shifted to the early ancient buildings in the mountains.
The real use of cultural protection monuments as the direction of investigation stems from the announcement of the two national security units.
One is that in 2001, the fifth batch of national key cultural relics protection units was announced, with 518, and the total number of national security officially exceeded 1,000. At that time, I was in college, and I felt like a frog at the bottom of a well, and I had not seen a few of the more than a thousand historical sites that condensed the essence of history and culture, and from here on, I was particularly conscious of the road of visiting ancient times.
At that time, I was studying in Nanjing, and I had begun to consciously visit ancient times and search for stone carvings in the tombs of the Southern Dynasty. The Southern Dynasty tomb stone carvings are scattered, there are many points, and there is no complete mark, it was the 90s, there was no information on the Internet, it was still difficult to find them, but it was interesting.
Q: I've been lucky enough to travel with you twice before, and I found that some of the monuments are particularly deeply hidden, and the map navigation is not accurate, so I'm curious how did you find it in the first place?
Shinoki Tingquan: Indeed, with the deepening of the visit, without a professional map of ancient books, many things are difficult to find. Fortunately, my own major is geography, and in addition to looking at maps, I also need to draw maps.
In the early days of the hunt, I would make my own maps. Some map tools are also used, such as topographic maps, remote sensing image maps, etc.
Covered bridge
For example, to find an ancient bridge, open the remote sensing image map, and look along the river, the bridge above the river is very obvious. For example, like the imperial tombs of the Eastern Han Dynasty, until today, we actually do not have complete information, how to find? Through the image map, find a very large sealed mound.
Including the oasis in the desert, like the Badan Jaran Desert in Inner Mongolia, you will find that the underground water sources are very rich, which cannot be seen through ordinary maps, but if you zoom in on the image map, you will see lakes dotted everywhere.
In the early days of searching, some of the monuments had very little information, and the image maps could not be seen. Like more than twenty years ago to find the Southern Dynasty stone carvings, it is really very difficult. How to find the law at that time? First of all, circle a range through the data, for example, within a radius of tens of square kilometers, circle the large area well, and then hard to find.
Ride your bike, road by road within this range, from morning to night until dark, only to find the first point in the woods. So at that time, it was hard to come out, and then when I came back, I drew the whole distribution map.
Later, there were relevant enthusiasts and similar organizations, and it was much more convenient to make more information uploaded to the Internet.
Q: When did you find yourself in the state of "Chinese Infatuation"?
Shinoki Tingquan: When walking the Taihang Mountains.
When I saw a corner of the cornice of the ancient temple in the Taihang Mountains flying out of the mountain, there was suddenly an induction, and the mountain body of Xiongjun, who had previously been obsessed with Taihang, may be more obsessed with a corner cornice in the depths of Taihang at this moment, and find yourself entering the state of "Chinese infatuation".
Shinoki listens to Teacher Quan in the Taihang Mountains
That time was a National Day trip, to take a train to the southeastern region of Jin, you have to go through Zhengzhou, how difficult the transportation hub at that time was, people who have experience know. All in all, it was a night of overnight rushing, and the next day it was from early in the morning until the sun was about to set in the evening, and finally came to the Qinglian Temple in the deep mountains of Jincheng JueShan.
The moment I got off the bus, I saw that the Qinglian Ancient Temple was surrounded by sunlight, and this feeling of a deep mountain ancient temple suddenly emerged from my eyes, and the tired feeling of rushing for two nights and one day was completely gone. When I was instantly moved by such a deep mountain temple, the disease of "Chinese infatuation" has been obtained.
Shinoki listens to teacher Izumi and the statue of the Heavenly King
I went to see it with a few friends that I felt this way, and the beauty of this monument was actually common.
Q: Are there any changes in the value appraisal system for different batches of state security units?
Shinoki Tingquan: It's not the same, the evaluation system is a comprehensive consideration.
First, it is related to the degree of economic development. Economically developed areas have more spare energy to do the level identification of cultural security units, and they will try to make as much as possible when declaring, and the follow-up maintenance work can also keep up with it. Where the economy is relatively backward, it may lack such spare energy or relevant departments.
But with the rise of our overall cultural protection awareness, everyone feels that whether you have money or not, cultural relics must be protected. So we will see that the number of announcements of different batches of state security units is not equal.
The 8 batches so far can be roughly seen in this way. The first batch of state security units announced in 1961 totaled 180, which everyone in the Chinese nation should go to see. The Mausoleum of the First Qin Emperor, the Forbidden City, and the Great Wall... It can be said that it represents the cultural essence of our entire Chinese nation.
The second batch was announced in 1982, although it was separated by 21 years, but in fact we can regard it as a supplement to the first batch, which is the essence of the entire nation. The third batch was announced in 1988, a total of 258 places, everyone slowly have the ability to recognize and protect the culture, on the basis of the previous two batches to expand the scope of protection, but the overall is still very dry goods, an average of less than 10 places in each province.
That is to say, we visit ancient enthusiasts to see the national security point, and the first three batches can be said to be a must-see. That is to say, the cultural relics themselves have good historical value, cultural value, seeability and other aspects of value.
But the fourth batch started, and my personal feeling was that some screening could be done. Because if everyone wants to see it, they don't necessarily have much time and energy. When our economic development reaches a certain stage and pays attention to the protection of cultural relics, we will find that its assessment begins to change significantly.
In 2006, the sixth batch of state security units was announced, with a total of 1080 units, which is almost equivalent to the sum of the previous five batches. From the perspective of our ordinary people, it may feel that "the national security point has begun to inject water". Since this batch, many sites that we have not heard of before have entered our field of vision.
By the seventh batch, large-scale revolutionary cultural relics and relics were added. For ordinary people, this change may be the decline in the ornamentality of cultural relics. For example, what do many sites see when they go to the site? It is a wheat field, a rice field, a wasteland, and then a national security monument. Most of the revolutionary relics are probably modern and modern cultural relics.
The eighth batch was published in 2019, with 762 locations. The number has shrunk compared with the previous two batches, because most of the high-value cultural relics that can be seen on the ground every day have been published, and this batch is more of the revolutionary cultural relics and ancient sites related to ideology. From the perspective of public aesthetics, the more the cultural relics in the previous batch are worth seeing, my understanding is like this.
Follow-up announcements, of course, there are also a lot of dry goods. My personal words can give you a little advice, such as the grotto statues in the Bashu area, because it was very late to enter the academic field, many were not included in the national security until the seventh batch, and even many are not national security points, still very wonderful, very worth seeing.
There is also a type of Liao Pagoda, the Liao Pagoda in the border area of Northeast China, Inner Mongolia and North China, a large number of them have entered the national security in the seventh batch, but the Liao Pagoda because of its very good environmental protection, between heaven and earth, between the mountains and the water, the feeling is very good, and the ancient pagoda in our central plains cities has lost its original ecology, which is completely different.
There is also the early wooden building in Shanxi, because it has survived too much, and we found it very late, so even if it was entered into the national security very late, it is very worth seeing.
Even some of them, until today, are not state security, and from the public perception, there are still several categories worth seeing. One is a statue of the Bashu region, and the other is an ancient bridge in Jiangnan, including the covered bridge in Fujian and Zhejiang, which does not have the identity of a high-level cultural security, but because it has the beauty of the original environment, it is still very exciting.
Pingnan County Jinzhu Bridge
Q: There are more than 700,000 immovable cultural relics in China, of which only 5,058 are selected as state security units. If you now have the opportunity to apply for a new state security unit, which monuments would you nominate?
Shinoki Tingquan: I don't think it's actually needed, there are enough national security.
Although more than 700,000 immovable cultural relics have been screened out of these more than 5,000, the proportion is still very small. But for us ordinary people, there are only a few people who can complete the existing 5058 national security points.
And not only the national security is protected by the cultural relics protection law, there are other levels such as provincial cultural protection points, municipal cultural protection points, etc., in fact, are cultural relics protection units. If they are all included in the national security, in fact, it may also evolve into our lack of attention to the cultural protection points below the provincial level. Hierarchical management, only allowing the best part to be included in the national security, this is the most reasonable way in my opinion.
Q: You began to visit Cuba in the 1990s, when information and transportation were far less developed than they are now. What do you think is the biggest difference between the experience of visiting Cuba now and 20 years ago?
Xiaoxi Tingquan: In addition to the huge changes in information and transportation, the first is the loss of the original ecology of cultural relics, which is actually a great pity.
We know that the reason why it is called immovable cultural relics is because in addition to the cultural relics themselves, its surrounding environmental elements are equally important, and only cultural relics in this environment can highlight its value, especially the value of aesthetics.
I especially love the beauty of the field attributes of field cultural relics, when some unscientific so-called protection intervenes, the beauty and authenticity of the cultural relics themselves begin to be discounted, and then the surrounding environment of the cultural relics begins to be lost - as immovable cultural relics, the surrounding environment and the cultural relics themselves are equally important.
Early visits to ancient times, you will see some monuments with very high authenticity. Now with the gradual intensification of cultural relics protection, more cultural relics are protected, and little attention is paid to the ecological beauty of cultural relics. Whether it is the improvement of national pride or the pride of ancient history, in fact, the transmission of beauty is the most direct.
Unfortunately, this beauty will be ignored now when protection is above everything, and the addition of cages, enclosures, and glass — heavenly prison protection or formalin protection — keeps true enthusiasts out of high walls and strips away the field properties of immovable artifacts.
Protection is only a means, and display and inheritance are the purpose of protection. When we regard the means as the ultimate goal, this is putting the cart before the horse.
The whole society has formed a common understanding, and everyone feels that cultural relics must take visible protective measures. But many people don't bother to think about what constitutes reasonable protection.
For example, a historical site, if it stays outdoors in its original ecology, even if it has been maintained by the local cultural relics department's "four haves" and daily inspection and maintenance, but some cultural relics enthusiasts see that the first reaction is that the cultural protection department has not done anything, he thinks that the protection should be circled, add a cover, and close it, which is called the so-called protection. Either that, everything in the wild should be moved to the museum.
This concept is very problematic, and it is not known why there is a fixed word "immovable" in front of the cultural relics.
The second big change is the four words "no photography allowed." This is a very ignorant prohibition. The reason is often to "protect cultural relics", and to regard taking pictures as the destruction of cultural relics.
This view is either stupid or bad. Most of the cultural relics in the museum are now allowed to take pictures without flashing lights, so as to record and disseminate the essence of national culture. On the contrary, many immovable cultural relics are inexplicably not allowed to be photographed.
The reason for not taking pictures is also the fear of thieves, this reason is also untenable, all state security units are open information, there is no problem of confidentiality. At least at the level of state security units, the fundamental purpose of the protection of immovable cultural relics is to be public, not confidential.
Therefore, in the final analysis, there is only one reason for this regulation, that is, its unspeakable cultural copyright monopoly, which is the invention of a well-known cave temple in China, so it is common in the early cave temple type of monuments.
So the next thing I think the most important thing is to activate and use, so that this cultural relics can better communicate with us, protect its environment, so that everyone can talk to the cultural relics cordially, at this point, I think the cognitive system and evaluation system of the whole society are still far from enough.
Q: In recent years, you have planned the "Ancient Road China" series of study tours in an attempt to spread "Chinese infatuation" to more people?
Shinoki Tingquan: Yes, it is very important, I hope to be able to pass on the concept that the real cultural relics protection is to see it, understand it, fascinate it, be proud and proud of it.
Some posters of the Gudao China series
The "Ancient Road China" series of study tours planned in recent years is based on such considerations. Compared with a single cultural protection point, the "ancient road" involves more types of cultural relics and monuments, and the geographical span is more extensive, and we will have a deeper understanding of the beauty of the monuments.
Therefore, I hope to be able to drive more people to have a deeper thinking and understanding of cultural relics protection, from enclosure protection to revitalization and utilization.
Q: When planning a solo trip and planning a study tour, what are the different emphases of your consideration?
Shinoki Tingquan: There are many differences, for example, you will consider safety, personal safety and the safety of the cultural relics themselves; you will consider traffic; you will consider the visual presentation, that is, the degree of viewability at first glance; you will consider how to string together a system. It is also necessary to combine the physical strength of different people and so on.
A glimpse of the study tour
We can give a few examples, such as transportation. When you are alone, you can go to the trails, to the kind of bikes or even to hike places; but if you go with a group, you need to consider what model can go.
And what we said about the visibility, look at it yourself, even if the site type point is a wasteland, but we have a recognition of its value in our hearts, it is no problem; but if you bring a group of friends to see, it is a wasteland, not necessarily a good experience.
Therefore, when designing the route, everyone will be picked to go to the scene and the visibility is relatively high. The "Ancient Road China" I designed hopes to connect the travel routes from the ancient road, which not only understands the architectural monuments themselves, but also forms a systematic understanding of the era, background, etc. that it runs through.
Q: This year, you set up an online course on "National Security 100", selecting 100 intensive lectures from 5058 national security points across the country, are these points your personal preference, or are there some systematic considerations?
Shinoki Tingquan: We have 5058 national security, even if you are a depth enthusiast, it is difficult to do it after reading all the points. I screen these 100 national security points, of course, there will be some considerations of my own.
The first is the time series, which is a very happy place to visit ancient China, and the time series of thousands of years is very complete. Then the main body of "National Security 100" is from the Spring and Autumn Period, and there is a complete time series throughout the future.
Second, different points are related to each other, and they form a relatively complete knowledge structure.
For example, when talking about Hanguguan, we talk about Laozi thought; when we talk about the Confucius Temple in Qufu, we mention the thought of Confucius, and we will compare them. For example, when we talk about Qin Shi Huang opening the Qin Straight Road, we will talk later about Emperor Wu of Qin opening the Chu Chu Dao that crossed the Qin Mountains, what will be the difference between them? So between each point I want them to form such a network.
Third, try to pick some that are not too popular.
Like the Forbidden City, the Longmen Grottoes, etc., I have thought about it again and again or have not put it. There are many ways for everyone to understand these points, and I would like to take you to understand some of the national security points that are usually not so much information. For example, like the Qin straight road, the churn road, relatively speaking, there is not a lot of information, I want to provide these to everyone for reference.
The fourth is that I think these points can cover all regions in China and cover more types. I hope that there are ancient buildings, cave temples, ancient pagodas, ancient monuments, ancient passes, ancient tombs and so on.
The most important thing is systematic, when you go through these 100 points of understanding, you will find that it can form a net, this net is like our course poster wrote "reading China in the monuments" . Read the monuments themselves, the beauty behind the monuments, the background of the times, the geographical environment and historical necessity in which they are located, and so on.
This is also a challenge to myself, I feel that few people do this kind of explanation now, so it is difficult for me, but also feel very interesting, I hope you like it.
Q: The "National Security 100" course has now been updated with ten lectures, and every time I listen to it, I want to go to the scene to see it. Will you design a study tour related to the theme of national security in the future?
Shinoki Tingquan: I don't think it's necessary to design a route for the national security. Because national security is a difference in the level of protection, it does not fully represent the value itself.
I hope that everyone can go to the scene and feel the beauty from the bottom of their hearts, whether it is the beauty of the building itself or the beauty of the environment and landform in which it is located. As for whether it is a national security, a provincial security, or just an ordinary monument point, this is not very important, so I will not design a special study tour route according to the national security.
The second point, the most fundamental is our cultural order, when you do the route, most of the points have been included in the national security, if you want to find a wonderful cultural relics point that is not a national security point, it is more difficult. After all, there are five thousand national security. Therefore, the visibility and sense of system are the preferred considerations when doing the line, and which national security points are filled in the back.
When designing the "Ancient Road China" study tour series and the "National Security 100" online course, the concept is different, after all, it is online and offline. Online, we form a complete knowledge network after listening to the lectures, and the study tour fundamentally requires the beauty of the scene and the interspersing of different types.
Q: In the post-epidemic era, the travel range has basically shrunk to China, and many friends have newly visited Gukeng, what advice do you have for this?
Xiaoxi Tingquan: Listen to the "National Security 100" line class, take the "Ancient Road China" study tour series. Because the beauty of China is beyond imagination, even better than most of us think.
The beauty of China's landscape and the beauty of humanities can be said to be the most wonderful, especially the humanities, we all know that the entire 5,000-year history has not been interrupted in the sequence of civilizations. So within such a huge territory, so many monuments, you walk a monument point, in fact, like a pearl to pick up, and finally string up the pearl necklace, string up the entire cultural history of China.
The difference between this trip and natural landscapes is that the more you learn about the monuments, the more interesting things you will find behind them.
If you can give you advice, you can start the introductory journey of the monuments by means of philately. For example, if you want to see the grottoes, start with the four major grottoes; if you want to see the inscriptions, start from the three major stele forests; if you want to see the stupas, you can start from the four famous pagodas... These standards are not exhaustive, but have a more consensus reference.
Or you can first collect the first batch of national security in the province, you can go through them all; or you can follow the timeline, such as starting from the unification of Qin Shi Huang, until the later Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, according to each historical stage to visit representative monuments, and even go back to the Neolithic age. This approach may be good for getting started.
Q: Okay ~ Thank you Teacher Shinoki for your wonderful answer.
From Mr. Shinoki's experience of visiting ancient times and his views on humanistic monuments, I deeply felt his love for cultural relics and monuments and his fascination with the beauty of China.
In fact, to appreciate the beauty of Chinese civilization, those national security units standing on our land of China, they are the most important parts that the national cultural relics representative team has screened for us, they witness history, and they are more worthy of our appreciation.
-END-
Edit 丨 Art Travel Culture
Thank you Toshiro Tingquan teacher for providing the picture
Some of the pictures come from the Internet, if there is infringement, please contact to delete