Ma Boyong: Human nature and emotion are eternal themes
Ma Boyong's pen is a lot of small people in the cracks of history. In his eyes, the single individual of these people is powerless, and their voices are easily annihilated by the long river of history. But when thousands of such people gather together, the demand they form is the so-called "tide of the times".
Author | L
题图 | 《长安十二时辰》
Ma Boyong is a well-known prolific writer, and under normal circumstances, he publishes a book every year. The day after this interview, his new book, The Eater, was published. When interpreting the book, he said: "From a small ingredient, it can involve the political, economic, cultural and even territorial development history of the Western Han Dynasty, and the drama can be full, which perfectly meets my needs." ”
"Finding possibilities in the cracks of history" has been consistent in Ma Boyong's creation. And in 2023, Ma Boyong will complete an "alternative work" - "Too Platinum Star is a Little Annoying". Unlike previous historical themes that focused on realism, this book takes place in a world full of gods and monsters.
(Photo/Douban Ma Boyong's "Too Platinum Star is a Little Annoying")
In his opinion, "Too Platinum Star is a Little Annoying" is very similar to his original work, with "parody, spoof, and reconstruction". He regarded this book as a work of "returning to the original intention", so in the process of writing, he "did not consider the layout of the plot, nor did he consider the market response and the prospect of adaptation.
"Too Platinum Star is a Little Annoying" is not just an expansion of existing myths. When conceiving, Ma Boyong noticed that these works based on "Journey to the West" will actually have a direction that extends to reality: "Either it is about the righteousness of teenagers, or about the interpersonal relationships within the team of "Journey to the West" itself, or it is about analyzing some of the cultural backgrounds behind "Journey to the West". ”
And all of these contents refer to some contemporaneity. So, Ma Boyong refined the characteristics of Tai Bai Xing, which were not mentioned in the original book of "Journey to the West", into the main line. "Inspiration, catch up with an interesting idea, and write it out quickly. His hearty experience in writing is also passed on to the reader.
On the occasion of "Too Platinum Star is a Little Annoying" and won the "Good Book of the Year" of the 2023 Blade Book Award of New Weekly, we conducted an exclusive interview with Ma Boyong, and the following is a transcript of the conversation.
"Extracting the modernity of the ancients"
New Weekly: The first half of the book describes a series of operations on how Li Changgeng balances, handles relationships, and sets up a name, which makes many migrant workers empathetic. Did you deliberately consider the reader's preferences when shaping him?
Ma Boyong: I think human nature has not changed since ancient times, although the historical period of social forms and the level of technological development are different, but human nature and emotion are the eternal theme. Whether it is in the Yin Shang Dynasty, the Tang and Song Dynasties, or in modern times, it is the same, except that its story takes place in different backgrounds over and over again, but the logic of the story itself is the same. So when we write these things, we are distilling these "one-size-fits-all" human nature. We will find the commonalities of human nature in history and reality, express it, and connect the past and the present.
(Photo/"Don't Panic King")
The "social animal" has been the same since ancient times, but it is placed in that position, which happens to resonate with the present. It's a trick to inject modern consciousness into it, but also to conform to ancient logic. If you ask the ancients to do the same thing as the modern people, it will be a play, for example, you can't ask the ancients to take out a mobile phone. But if the ancients were asked to do something, and it was done immediately, and the leader said that he wanted to change his needs, or he slapped the leader on the horse's legs, and offended the leader by slapping the horse's leg, these things have existed in ancient and modern times, and they can resonate.
For me, the greatest pleasure is that I am able to extract and show you what is modern in antiquity, without violating the two principles of "historical logic" and "historical truth" that I adhere to.
New Weekly: The background of "Journey to the West" is well known to readers, so what did you think was the biggest challenge when writing this book? How to find a different way in the creation of historical fiction, and do you have a methodology of your own?
Ma Boyong: When I write historical novels, what I pursue is not the so-called completely true history, but the logical history. In other words, this may not have happened, but this person in history can do such a thing. I think this is the logic that should be followed in writing novels, that is, "big things are true, small things are not informal". In the end, I think it should be a "sandwich-style" approach, the sandwich is two layers up and down plus a middle layer, the upper and lower layers should be "real", and the middle layer can be imagined.
The upper layer is the big historical facts, that is, for all the big things and big people, including the historical figures that do exist, do not change him, nor distort his image, and try to present the most real state.
At the bottom, we should talk about the details of life, such as how people ate, drank and had fun, how they ate, how they lived, how they interacted with others, and what social rules were. These details of life are also kept as real as possible. Between these two layers of reality, I would add my own fiction.
April 3, 2016, Taiyuan, Shanxi. Citizens view the huge Tang Dynasty murals in the museum. (Photo/Visual China)
In other words, the story may be fictional, and the characters may also be fictional, but his sitting, lying, walking, or all his actions are in line with the general trend of the times and the life of the time. Common sense of life is in line with a real logic, and I try to make myself do this level so that the whole story looks exciting and believable.
"Figuring out where a drop of water goes,
I'll know where the Yangtze River is going."
New Weekly: Before you wrote full-time, you also worked in the corporate industry, what was your state like during that time? How do you think the situation of people now has changed compared to when you were working before?
Ma Boyong: I am a relatively quiet and lazy person, and I am not very willing to fight, so when I worked in the company, I didn't particularly want to strive for promotion, knowing that I was not that kind of person, just get by. Thanks to this self-positioning of "no interest", I not only got rid of the pain of "involution", but also had the spare time to watch coldly, and observed a lot of "I don't know the volume in the volume", and my colleagues would also be happy to confide in me. This became the material for my later books.
As the number of migrant worker stories I came into contact with continued to increase, and as I continued to read historical materials, I gradually realized that the two are actually the same thing. The essence of "part-time work" has not changed since ancient times, but the efficiency has been improving. Workers either seek detachment from the outside or dissolution from the inside, which is actually an escape in a sense. Ordinary people can't fight against "involution", and once you decide to fight against "involution", it will become a layer in the "roll".
(Photo/"Don't Panic King")
New Weekly: Similar to the previous work, when you write, you develop it from the perspective of small people, who may not be able to leave a name in history. For you, what is the point of telling stories from this perspective, and what is the relevance of the predicament they face to contemporary people?
Ma Boyong: I once saw an exhibition about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which exhibited all the cultural relics related to the Three Kingdoms, and I saw two bricks there.
The first is a brick found in a tomb in Bozhou, Anhui Province, 14 years before the Yellow Turban Rebellion. There is a passage written by a craftsman on this brick, which roughly means, "You are about to drive me to death, and now I will wait for the day when the sky is dead, and I will settle accounts with you." When you see this brick, you will immediately understand why the Yellow Turban Uprising was able to sweep the world.
Another brick was unearthed next to Jianye, the capital of the former state of Wu. At that time, the Jin State destroyed the Wu State, and the world had been unified into three parts, and this brick was written as "Jin Ping Wu, the world is peaceful". After research, I learned that the owner of this brick was probably in his 70s. I think that during the war, there must have been thousands of ordinary people like this old man, who could no longer bear the consequences of the war, and when they called for peace together, it was an inevitable trend for the world to be unified by three parts.
These two bricks gave me a strong feeling at the time – they explained the origin of the Three Kingdoms Troubles and the end of the Three Kingdoms Troubles. We see that the protagonists of history are not those famous generals, strategists, and princes, but these thousands of ordinary people, whose needs will eventually form historical trends.
This is my understanding of small people, and I want to write about such people. In the past few years, I have become more and more interested in these transactional contents, writing about small people to work. People who work are the hardest people, so I'm interested in how these people work and what kind of state they are in when they work. To put it bluntly, we are all "social animals", some of the problems we encounter now, the ancient people also had such confusion and trouble, what attitude should we face it, what kind of philosophical view should we understand?
(Photo/"The Wind Rises in Longxi")
All along, I have a very strong and firm view of history: all history is created by the masses of the people. These masses of the people are powerless individually, and their voices can easily be annihilated by the long river of history. But when thousands of such people gather together, the demand they form is the so-called "tide of the times". Those heroes are just following this trend and standing at the forefront of the tide. So to put it bluntly, I think that by figuring out the flow of a drop of water, I will know where the Yangtze River is going.
"Details related to human emotions,
It always moves me."
New Weekly: Many of your works have been turned into films, has there been any change in your mentality since they became popular? Has the ensuing fame had any impact on your creation? What does this kind of commercial success mean to you?
Ma Boyong: Writing has little to do with whether it is famous or not or how it is financially well-off, because its internal strength does not come from this. If I finish writing and become famous, I will enjoy the current manuscript fee with peace of mind, and I can't imagine this kind of life. In layman's terms, writing is actually about loving and showing off, and this kind of display and show off will not change because of changes in your income.
For me, if I keep writing the same routine, I get bored. After "The Twelve Hours of Chang'an" was broadcast, many people asked me to take advantage of the popularity to write a one, such as "Twelve Hours in Beijing" and "Twelve Hours in Guangzhou". Writing in the style of "The Twelve Hours of Chang'an" may also be very good for readers, but for me, it belongs to standing still and belonging to a state of consuming oneself. I hope that every book will give everyone a breakthrough. Some breakthroughs may seem fresh to everyone, and maybe the fresh effect is not as good as imagined, but I still want to keep pushing my boundaries so that I can see where my limits are.
(Photo/"The Twelve Hours of Chang'an")
New Weekly: What kind of historical details do you think most triggers your desire to write?
Ma Boyong: I am always moved by the details related to human emotions. For example, a few years ago, I visited the Nanyue King Museum in Guangzhou, and I saw a bamboo slip inside, and on it was a garden file of a jujube tree. This detail is very small, but intriguing. There is no wild jujube tree in Guangdong, so where did this jujube tree come from? After further investigation, Zhao Tuo, the king of Nanyue, was a native of Zhending, Hebei, and the jujube tree happened to be a special product of Zhending. Thinking of the confrontational relationship between the Nanyue Kingdom and the Han Dynasty, it is not difficult to deduce that a person who divided Lingnan began to miss his hometown in his later years, but he could not return, so he had to transplant a batch of jujube trees to relieve his homesickness. With such an association, history is no longer a cold bamboo slip, but full of human flavor. I took this opportunity to write a novel called "The Disciple of the South", which tells the story of a "foodie" in the Han Dynasty who sought to taste Lingnan, because of the sauce and a person's sensitive taste, and expanded the geographical territory of a civilization.
(Photo/Douban Ma Boyong's "The Disciple of the South")
New Weekly: Finally, tell us about your feelings about winning the award.
Ma Boyong: Writing is a very self-conscious thing, but relying on oneself cannot contribute to the cycle of "creating-reading-thinking". Only when a book is read by readers can it truly go through a complete life cycle. In this sense, the author and the reader are working together to create a book. So it's not just me who won the award, but also my readers.
Operation: Ono, typesetting: Duan Meiyu
"The blade is real, it pierces the fog and brings me closer to the truth. ”
【浮光与永恒 | 2023年度#刀锋图书奖# 】
Just today!
Follow the text up the stairs and look at the more open life.
#刀锋文化季#
The official Weibo of New Weekly and the video account of New Weekly will be broadcast live simultaneously