Interview background
Alibaba is one of China's most important companies and Daniel Zhang one of China's most important business leaders.
In 2008, he concurrently served as COO of Taobao and General Manager of Taobao Mall, and launched the Double 11 Shopping Festival in 2009. In 2012, Taobao Mall changed its name to Tmall, and Tmall Double 11 surpassed the US "Black Friday" to become the world's largest shopping carnival a few years later.
On the morning of April 11, at the Alibaba Cloud Summit held at the China National Convention Center in Beijing, Daniel Zhang talked about a tidbit related to Double 11.
"At that time, we didn't have much confidence in the carrying capacity of our servers, so we made a backup plan for the PC version of Black and White Taobao. If you want to limit the flow and reduce the page load, you really can't cut the page into black and white. It sounds ridiculous today, but it's a real thing. After 14 years of development, we no longer have to worry about the support system behind the flood peak today. 'Real-time transactions, ultra-scale, high concurrency, and peak floods' is the basic bottom line that Alibaba Cloud can carry over, whether it is payment, orders, or inventory, real-time synchronization, the user experience in the middle is silky smooth. ”
In China, there are very few Internet users who have not touched Alibaba, and the billion users are a business scale that was unimaginable before; And it is the support of technologies such as cloud computing that makes business inclusion possible.
Cloud computing and Singles' Day, born in 2009, reflect the value of forward-looking decision-making by entrepreneurs. This value goes beyond a single business to become the infrastructure and an important holiday for the entire digital business society.
In recent times, Ali has made two major decisions that have had a long impact, which have attracted widespread attention:
First, on March 28 Daniel Zhang a letter was issued to all employees, announcing the launch of the "1+6+N" organizational change. 6 are 6 major business groups, namely Alibaba Cloud Intelligence, Taobao Tmall Business, Local Life, Cainiao, International Digital Business, and Dawen Entertainment, and N is a number of business companies, such as Alibaba Health, Sun Art Retail, Freshippo, etc., as well as companies that may be newly created or invested in the future. They establish separate boards of directors, implement the CEO responsibility system under the leadership of the board of directors of each business group and business company, and assume overall responsibility for their respective operating results. Alibaba Group will shift from the previous model of overall management of people, finances and affairs of its business to a holding model, participating in the board of directors as a shareholder, exercising shareholder rights and fulfilling shareholder obligations.
The second is to Daniel Zhang into the cloud battlefield, personally serve as the CEO of Alibaba Cloud Intelligence, and seize the opportunity of the new generation of artificial intelligence technology and thousands of industries to fully embrace intelligence. Daniel Zhang said that making computing a public service is Alibaba Cloud's constant pursuit, and the core of the future is to do two things well: make computing power more inclusive and AI more popular.
In the new era of cloud-intelligence integration, where is Alibaba going? How to go? Daniel Zhang made decisions and showed his courage, the direction of change and his judgment of the future.
On the morning of April 11, I listened to the Cloud Summit and interviewed Daniel Zhang in the afternoon. The focus of the interview is on organizational change, inspiring entrepreneurship, and Alibaba in the era of cloud computing.
The following is a transcript of the interview.
About the "1+6+N" organizational change
Q: In the past, it was said that "too big to fail", but in fact, "too big to change" is the norm. Alibaba's change is "the biggest organizational change in the 24 years since its founding." What are the key points that you made up your mind?
Daniel Zhang: First of all, from the business level, everyone sees it as Alibaba, but in fact, the business inside is already very complicated. I have carefully studied some large groups, which are either single main business or have strong interoperability of the types of main business. And Ali has a business to C, a business to B, and a platform type and a tool type in To C. For example, the Amap, it requires craftsmanship, because the accuracy of the map is the key, and it must be improved. We used to be generally platform-based, and then with companies like Freshippo, it's retail.
With so many businesses, their respective concerns and temperaments are different. Just like a zoo, different species require different cultivation methods. If they have been mixed operations, they may be more suitable for some species, but not necessarily for others, and the friction between them will increase. Some businesses are greatly affected by the international environment, some are greatly affected by technological innovation, and some are greatly affected by changes in consumer trends. The competitors on each track are also different. From the perspective of growth cycle, Taobao has been born for 20 years, and some businesses are only two years old. From a spatial point of view, it is difficult to imagine how an overseas business in Southeast Asia can respond quickly to the actions of competitors while sitting in Hangzhou. Therefore, from the development logic of the group's multi-business operation, change is an inevitability, to make the organization simpler and more agile, so that children can go out and face the market independently.
Secondly, from the employee level, it is necessary to solve the problem of "for whom to fight". It is very important to make employees, middle managers, and senior managers have a more direct relationship between business efforts, contributions and incentive results, rather than a long transmission mechanism in between.
This year Ali is 24 years old. This year is also my 16th year in Ali, I became the CFO of Taobao at the age of 35, and later created Tmall, doing "Double Eleven", now in our company, don't say 35 years old, 40 years old, 45 years old, did you give him such responsibility and inspiration?
My biggest experience at Alibaba is that entrepreneurship is not cultivated, but self-motivated. Ali has so many businesses and needs a group of entrepreneurs, not an entrepreneur. Can you rely on training and indicators to complete the cultivation of entrepreneurs? It can't be, it must rely on a mechanism to help entrepreneurs self-motivate. In my letter, I pointed out that "the market is the best touchstone, and in the future, qualified business groups and companies will have the possibility of independent financing and listing." This is a fundamental institutional change.
Of course, today's change is not achieved overnight, there is an early foreshadowing, it is a natural success. In 2015, we proposed the middle office strategy and built a governance model of "large middle office, small front office", and in 2020, we advocated building an agile organization and implementing a business responsibility system, such as AutoNavia's business responsibility system is a three-year cycle, not a year, so that it is willing to invest in innovative businesses that may not have immediate results. At present, Alibaba has a number of independently operated ring companies (complete company system), such as Cainiao, Freshippo, Local Life, etc. On the basis of these explorations, further and more radical changes are made, which is the new governance structure of "1+6+N".
Q: Business schools often discuss whether entrepreneurship is innate (by nature) or by learning, and you just suggested that it is stimulating. This organizational reform allows business groups and business companies to move more independently to the market, just to inspire them. Do you think the "disadvantages" of unified management outweigh the "advantages" brought by unified coordination?
Daniel Zhang: The division and integration, vertical and horizontal of the internal organization of the enterprise are not absolute, but should be dynamically adjusted at different stages. In 2015, we proposed "large middle office, small front desk", and at that time, we considered distilling the common needs of each business line of the front office, creating a componentized resource package, and providing it to the front desk in the form of an interface to reduce "repeated wheels". The middle office integrates the operational data capabilities and product technical capabilities of the entire group to form an effective support for the front office. In the past 8 years without the middle office strategy, and now suddenly separated, it will do more harm than good. With the construction of the middle office, the coupling degree of many services and working methods has been established, even if the organization and governance are separated, the coupling relationship between these services and work will not be separated. For business groups and business companies, the essence of "separation" is to hand over the decision-making power to the person closest to the market, the most downward, facing the front of the business, and all service relationships that contribute to development and have been well coupled will not be separated.
For example, today all of Alibaba's business is a cloud customer, and it is impossible for you to let him not use the cloud. The operation and maintenance paradigm of the entire infrastructure has been formed, and e-commerce lines, logistics lines, AutoNavi and so on have grown together on the cloud, and they are inseparable. How to make better use of the cloud, more actively drive to the market, and innovate around customers depends on their own sense of ownership.
This example is to illustrate that because the construction of the middle platform has helped everyone to establish a collaborative system and work paradigm, in the future, although everyone's market-oriented decision-making mechanism is independent, the coupling relationship of you and me, efficient and mutual integration still exists. The overall value requirements are also consistent. The change emphasizes that you have to make decisions based on your own business situation, get rid of the sense of dependence on a large group, and can no longer rely on one or two brains to make decisions on all battlefields. This must change the governance structure, and if there is always someone above who decides for him, he will always have excuses, inertia, and so on.
Q: Before the change, you should have the final say on each of Alibaba's businesses, and after the change, each business has its own board of directors, will you participate in all boards? How do you balance them with running to the market and training them, but also taking on the responsibility of the entire Ali?
Daniel Zhang: I won't be on all boards, only a few. But that doesn't mean I'm completely out of every business.
First, all of Alibaba's businesses are highly digital, and I can understand the situation of each business in real time, and the information is transparent.
Second, we have good visibility into our data. Not consequential data, but procedural data, and I can see the raw data granularity.
So whether I'm on the board or not on the board doesn't affect my understanding of the business. Data visibility is key.
After the reform, Ali Group became a holding company, and the holding company was most afraid that the following statements were consequential. The headquarters wants to report, and the indicators are filled in below. The data we want to grasp is raw granularity, visible, and not hidden. This is also a governance requirement for listed companies.
Q: Listening to your talk, I feel that this reform organization has been divided, but some of the inner life flow has not been broken.
Daniel Zhang: If it is broken, it will destroy its martial arts. If there is no internal relationship and cannot borrow from each other, it will be impossible to form an overall strategic judgment, and the problem will be great in the long run. To put it bluntly, after the company becomes bigger, it must be done small, and after a long time, it must be done separately, which is the cycle of heaven. And the division is not completely broken, and there are still common points after the division.
On production relations and productivity
Q: In 2023, you proposed that Ali should "advance", and this organizational change proposed "agile organization and multiculturalism", is there a relationship between the two?
Daniel Zhang: Yes. After the end of the anti-epidemic, we judged that for the economy to develop rapidly, enterprises must move forward and make progress. So it was proposed to "enter".
This organizational change has changed the relations of production. I have always liked to use the basic principles of Marxism to discuss problems, such as whether the relations of production and the productive forces adapt, and whether the relations of production promote or hinder the development of the productive forces. What do you expect to get when you change the relations of production? What are the possible costs? Do more good than harm or do you do more harm than good? If you think clearly, change it and move forward. There may be a gap in the final result, but you still have to try to go in the right direction.
Q: Organizational change is a management issue, followed by the operational capabilities and innovation of each business group. If some business units are not performing well in the market, will they still face the problem of continuing to reform?
Daniel Zhang: This is unavoidable. Can a change in the relations of production create new productive forces? It is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition. The remaining sufficient conditions such as entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial ability, innovation mechanism of each business, vitality of young people, organizational culture, deep insight into the industry, etc., are all factors towards success. But if the relations of production do not change, these problems will be mixed together and cannot be distinguished.
When production relationships change, business leaders must step up and stay ahead. This is a challenge to leaders. I have studied at Ali for so long and deeply realized that to be a leader is to make decisions that others cannot do and dare not make, and to assume responsibilities that others cannot bear. Internally, I also have a big vernacular saying, being a leader means getting the resources that the team can't handle.
In a large enterprise, the decision to change production relations must be made from the top down, and after the change of production relations, the breakthrough of productivity is more created below. The creation of productivity depends on everyone.
Ten fingers have a long and short length, and after the necessary conditions are met, the problems of people, the pattern of vision, innovation, and organizational culture may be more exposed. There is no need to avoid this. Because these problems exist, if they are not exposed, they may not know that they are so sick, "if they do not erupt in silence, they will perish in silence", it is better to expose them more fully, and then solve whatever problems should be solved. If a certain part is really not competitive in the market, it can only be "buried". When I met internally, that's exactly what I said.
Take 6+N 6, these 6 businesses are very large groups, not to mention Taobao Tmall is so huge, rookie is a large enterprise group - there are dry express, dry warehousing, dry cross-border overseas, dry logistics technology, dry station... A post station is a closed-loop business, and it is the responsibility system of the general manager. The original structure was Ali Big Group set in the group, and then set up small group, layer by layer, now there is one less layer above, so what to do below?
Next, you need to determine your own structure and mechanism according to the specific situation of internal and external. Some may be divided horizontally, and some may not be divided. The core problem is to understand that the essence of change lies in stimulating self-driving force by decomposing responsibilities, facing the market, unifying responsibilities and rights. What kind of organization and culture the market needs, work in this direction, and use the market requirements to drive the organizational structure. If each group and company below only cares about the organizational form, forgets the essence of change, and forgets the market, it may also breed a new disease of large enterprises, which is contrary to the direction of reform.
Q: You mentioned that if a certain part is not competitive in the market, it can only be buried. Does it mean that Alibaba Group no longer pays for it, but is solved by market mechanisms?
Daniel Zhang: Marketization is the main direction. In recent years, we have promoted the "business responsibility system" and the loop of business companies, all of which are moving forward in the direction of marketization. The so-called marketization is that your value is determined by the market, for example, if you raise capital in the market, you will know your value in the hearts of investors. Marketization means that it is useless for your work to satisfy me, and you have to go to the market to make others satisfied, which is really valuable.
After the "1+6+N" reform, the group should change from a business operation company to an asset management company, from managing people and managing business, solving specific problems, and giving everyone the bottom to making value judgments from the perspective of the market. In this change, the group can also give some "dowry" to the number one position and new CEOs of each business, but if you want to take money in the future, you need to go to the market to get it. You do a good job, as a major shareholder I am willing to vote, but I can also not vote. It is necessary to judge the value of each business around Alibaba's strategic main line. In this way, there is also a sense of separation between the group and the business, and if you stay trapped in it, it is actually difficult to make an accurate judgment.
"Capacity Building, Value Creation" and "Entrepreneurs Like Clouds"
Q: After the economy as a whole is no longer soaring, the market is more volatile, the competition between companies is more intense, and deeper market insights and core capabilities are required. Your requirements and expectations for business leaders are also changing, right?
Daniel Zhang: It's true that we're going into deep water. This is why Ali began to propose "capacity building and value creation" internally for all leaders and managers a few years ago. Alibaba's cultural values are called "customer first". That's right, but how do you put your customers first? The core is through value creation. You create value for him, and people will recognize you. But everyone wants to create value, why recognize you? That is capacity-building. If you have the ability, you can create value that others can't.
This logic emphasizes that customer first is first of all an attitude, followed by a ability, without the ability of "customer first" is empty, capable, can create value, customer first is a natural result.
Q: What are your main approaches to driving capacity building for business leaders? "Whip"? Engage in training?
Daniel Zhang: I want to inspire, motivate them, and make them self-motivated.
Today Ali has a lot of business, the comprehensive quality requirements for leaders are very high, "up the hall but also down the kitchen", the main dish can get the dishes must also have, technology, products, business, market can not be said to be all-in-one, but basically must understand, but also build a team to make up for the shortcomings. A good man has to be helped by several people, and it is impossible to do it alone.
The knife is sharpened on the stone, and the man is sharpened in the matter. A person's comprehensive ability is polished in practice. I have always said that the biggest training I received in my early years at Ali was the "October Siege" in 2011. At that time, Taobao Mall adjusted the technical service fee and the default deposit of the store, and many small and medium-sized sellers formed an alliance against it, and the matter was very big, and finally we adjusted the new regulations introduced, and the incident subsided. Our direction is correct, and the original intention at that time was very simple, that is, to upgrade the platform, but this incident made me realize that platform enterprises naturally have social public attributes, can not fully follow the market principle of the card, if 6 out of 10 people feel that your rules have problems, then you have to reflect, to reflect from a social perspective.
Cloud computing also has the problem of social public attributes. Alibaba Cloud is a platform, and how to connect the platform with thousands of industries and make good use of the cloud requires many partners. We need to play the role of partners more, instead of pounce on ourselves at the first opportunity, so how can others make money? A partner to develop a product, a market, is to invest first, he invested half, you say you changed your mind, this is definitely not okay. Therefore, we must consider our own social publicity from the heart, consider the interests of relevant parties, and adhere to mutual trust, common development and long-term win-win. Large enterprises naturally have a dominant nature, so they must have empathy, advocate equality, and treat partners kindly.
Q: In the past, I often heard the saying that Ali is "good as a cloud", is change hoping that more entrepreneurs will emerge?
Daniel Zhang: Ali may be a good general, but the general is not an entrepreneur, the war will be a general, and what we need more is "an entrepreneur like a cloud". Every business today needs an entrepreneur and a leader who can lead that business into the future. What each group needs is not a general, but a handsome.
Q: But you can't expect a bunch of entrepreneurs to suddenly fall from the sky, can you?
Daniel Zhang: Yes. It is true that entrepreneurs are not cultivated in private school, but often "wild children" who fight all the way in competition. However, I believe that with a good culture and mechanism, entrepreneurs are more likely to stand out. I came to work at Alibaba, and Ali has an open environment that gives me the opportunity to do something, slowly starting from 0, and from 0 to 1, I have done several things in a row. It's like "hitting the level", playing a few passes, and finally getting through the pass, and changing roles myself. The change I am making now is to give more people a better chance to get through their own pass, so that more entrepreneurs in Alibaba can clear the pass according to the business needs and pass the pass.
"Make a career, leave a work"
Q: What is the relationship between you driving this organizational change and personally serving as the CEO of Alibaba Cloud Intelligence?
Daniel Zhang: These two things are Alibaba's major events, which are related to what kind of attitude Ali uses to face the market and what kind of future Ali wants to face, and the two are related.
As the number one position of the enterprise, the most important thing is to see the future. Alibaba Cloud's 14 years have been 14 years of in-depth service to China's digitalization process. Many Internet startups from 0 to 1, from 1 to 10, from 10 to 100 are inseparable from using Alibaba Cloud to start businesses and innovate on the cloud.
At the same time, Alibaba Cloud has also seized the opportunity of industrial digitalization in thousands of industries. In recent years, from urban transportation to health code and intelligent manufacturing, all walks of life have fully embraced digital technology, and used digital technology to comprehensively transform all links, processes and upstream and downstream of enterprises.
In 2023, applications such as ChatGPT will allow us to see the comprehensive outbreak of artificial intelligence technology, the emergence of a new generation of technology and the disruptive impact on all walks of life. A new digital era and intelligent era are coming. In this era, all enterprises, from the first generation of Internet companies to the latest Internet companies, and companies from all walks of life that have been transformed, are on the same starting line.
I even said that all industries, all applications, all software, all services, are worth redoing based on new artificial intelligence technology, based on AIGC technical support in all aspects, and large model support, which will not only bring innovative customer experience, customer service satisfaction, but also make our production paradigm, work paradigm, and life paradigm undergo many changes.
When we see the future and believe in it, we must firmly and irrevocably mobilize the resources of the entire organization to practice.
Q: You are the CEO of a group and the CEO of a business group, which is rare in a large conglomerate. And Alibaba Cloud used to grow very fast, now the base is large, it will definitely slow down, are you not afraid of risks when you pick this burden?
Daniel Zhang: That's probably my personality.
First, this matter is important enough, perhaps one of Ali's most certain expectations for the future, and a major opportunity given by the times. And we have been pioneering for 14 years, and we are in the best position in cloud infrastructure and digital experience. Of course, we still have a lot to learn from all walks of life, and it is impossible to copy the experience of the Internet, but the foundation of the cloud has been laid, and we are fully qualified to go to a new level and create a big era.
Second, cloud business requires refined operation. I think Internet companies, including us, have enjoyed the dividends of many times in the past. I believe that my work expertise can better serve users on the Alibaba Cloud platform.
Third, it's fun for me to go down in person. Of course, there is pressure, investors will be patient with the answers submitted in the first quarter or two, but after a few quarters it still does not meet expectations, then it will put pressure. But stress is also fun. My personal hobby is definitely not to be a "mascot", my joy in work comes from creating. One of the things I often say to Alibaba's young managers is, "Make a career, leave a work." I care more about the latter sentence, which is to leave a work, to this platform, the stage and to myself a work.
Q: Just like Tmall "Double 11" back then?
Daniel Zhang: Maybe that's my outlook on life, with a bit of revolutionary romanticism in it.
Q: But the cloud business itself is quite complex, and it doesn't take enough time to be manageable. Do you have fun withstanding challenges and trials to figure things out in the midst of complex uncertainty?
Daniel Zhang: Right. But you can't just start with personal pleasure. Under the current circumstances, there is no one in Alibaba Group who is more suitable to do this than me, because this matter is big enough, it requires a high degree of integration of technology and business, and needs to design advanced technology systems and advanced business systems in a forward-looking manner, with dual advancedness, and establish a good model.
All of this is a big challenge. Many colleagues also said that I don't have to step into the game myself. But I think that only by fighting with everyone can we erase the leader's sense of authority and distance, and what those positions represent can really get out of the information cocoon. If I don't fight the war myself, I listen to reports, and I probably hear everything that everyone thinks about what you like to hear and then tells you. This is not an organization that will work. We're not afraid of real problems, we're not afraid of competition, I'm just going to win with everyone.
Q: I am very touched that you change and do things with such an attitude, and I believe that this demonstration will also infect many people and drive everyone to build a new Ali full of imagination together.
Daniel Zhang: I have always told my colleagues at Ali that everyone has the right to choose their own life. We must respect history, and disrespect for history is also disrespect for the future, disrespect for all people now. But on the other hand, in one position, you have to give it your all. If the strength is insufficient, the fight cannot be moved, and there are more ups and downs, it is necessary to adjust, and at this time I am most afraid of intertwining history and reality.
Ali was spelled out in the past, and it must be spelled out, broken out, and innovated in the future.
Q: I have the impression that in the past few years, Alibaba and Tencent were the world's top ten market capitalization companies, and for various reasons, they are no longer in it. I'm worried about the widening gap between Chinese internet companies and U.S. tech giants. From the perspective of becoming a world-class leader in the digital technology industry, has Alibaba's belief and confidence wavered?
Daniel Zhang: This question is indeed very important. The core of my consideration is that Ali, as the representative of the advanced digital technology and the advanced digital business, must compete with the best players in the world, and have communication and cooperation, rather than playing by himself in another small field.
Alibaba's strategic focus is consumption, cloud computing, and globalization. Cloud computing is broad, but also includes the digital intelligence, big model that we are pushing hard for. In the past ten years, Alibaba Cloud has been conducting research and development of integrated software and hardware technology, promoting the positive cycle of technological innovation, large-scale operation and cost reduction, and the computing power cost provided by Alibaba Cloud has dropped by 80% and storage costs by nearly 90% in ten years.
Alibaba Cloud has been conducting large-scale model research since 2019, and officially proposed the concept of "Model as a Service" (Model as a Service) in November last year. We also announced at the Cloud Summit that in the future, all Alibaba products will be connected to the Qianwen model and fully upgraded. Qianwen is a stage achievement of ours.
Cloud computing is the best way to mass adoption of AI. In the future, we hope that the cost of training a model on Alibaba Cloud can be reduced to 1/10 or even 1/100 of the current level. Even small and medium-sized enterprises can obtain the capabilities and services of AI large models through the cloud platform.
I think in the era of intelligence, whether you are a 20-year-old Internet company or a leading company in a traditional industry, if you do not seize the opportunity of intelligence, you will be thrown off. Ali wants to compare with the world's first-class manufacturers, compare with the most advanced level, instead of amusing himself and comparing himself with himself, which is definitely not okay.
Be a person with a clear conscience and do what is truly happy
Q: I see that some media say that you are the busiest CEO of a large company, and some people say that you like quiet very much, how do you coordinate these two points?
Daniel Zhang: I think it's still necessary to master the rhythm. The premise of my busyness is that my time can always be controlled by myself, and I will allocate my time. Second, leave time alone with yourself. Maybe it's on a treadmill, maybe it's meditating, maybe it's watching a drama, maybe it's driving outside on weekends, and you must have time to be an ordinary person and get along with yourself. Things can't be done, and I don't think people who are CEOs will be available, but busyness is also relative. It's still about finding the way of working that works best for you and finding your own pace.
Q: I have studied entrepreneurship and business civilization for a long time, and I feel that Ali under your leadership is more and more in line with the expectations of public good, and good can also be translated as good, but it seems that "wolf nature" is not as strong as some friends, is this feeling right?
Daniel Zhang: That's an interesting question. Let's jump out of the micro competition first. My point is that a company's style has something to do with social cycles. Ali spent the first 10 or 15 years like a mischievous little boy with a sense of justice, who was not used to some inherent business order and wanted to change. But as this little boy grows up, the social environment is also changing, people no longer think that you are a little boy, and the requirements for you are different. I think now Ali should be more like a young man who also has a sense of justice, but a sense of responsibility, to be sunny and have positive energy, which is no different from the original, and also have a sense of justice, but more responsible, that is, more from the perspective of the whole society to look at the requirements for themselves.
Back to the perspective of micro-competition, the market is always the hero of victory and defeat, and it is never conclusive, and it is always changing. This is indeed the norm in the business world. But there is another point here, that is, the worldview, the values. Maybe my business idea, the concept of doing business, will have a value scale, that is, why do I do this? What was your original intention? Just to succeed? Do you have to do what you don't like in order to succeed? People have limitations, and I have them, so I want to keep some value things, and I hope to keep thinking, precipitating, evolving, and starting with our organization.
Q: I have noticed some of the concepts you often talk about, such as empathy, progressivity, responsibility, and "getting along with society." Are these concepts really integrated with your decision-making, management, management, and behavior?
Daniel Zhang: That's my worldview. After all, people do something, they always have to sleep by themselves. The foundation of my life for so many years is that no matter how busy, difficult, and challenging, I always sleep very well.
Q: I think of a saying that conscience is the best pillow.
Daniel Zhang: Right. That is, everything you do, you have to have a clear conscience. This is important. It's really important that you sleep well, that you're worthy of yourself, that you're worthy of everyone, that you're worthy of your customers, and that you're worthy of the people you struggle with and trust you. In this way, you will also be more comfortable in your heart, no matter how challenging it is, you can still face it bravely.
Q: Mr. Ma and I met in 2003 and got to know his personality. I think he might be more impulsive in making decisions, would you be calmer?
Daniel Zhang: On the surface, this is true, but I also ignore the things I approve of and affirm.
I'm nice to people, but I'm still very strict with things. However, I emphasize that to be a person and do things, the requirements for others are first applied to themselves, and they must first have requirements for themselves.
Why do I say entrepreneurship is self-motivated? Because in the end, you still have to have requirements for yourself, the highest requirements do not come from others, not from KPIs, not from any assessment, in a large organization is easy to be trapped by these things. The most important thing is that everyone returns to their own self. Is he satisfied or dissatisfied with this thing he wants to do from his heart? Good no good? Isn't it a little proud to do it? This is the internal drive.
The happiest thing about being the leader of a business is that you set a strategy, according to this strategy, the result is obtained through the team, and there is a clear cause and effect. Such results are the happiest. Sometimes the result is a mistake, you shoot to the east, and finally the west receives a fruit, and everyone else congraturates you and thinks you did a good job, in fact, you know in your heart that this is a big luck. What's really happy is that you figured it out, strategized, implemented it step by step as a team, and finally did it.
Q: You're talking about a particularly good feeling. But the external environment changes frequently, and there is no fixed strategy, right?
Daniel Zhang: So you have to keep up with the times. And think outside the box you already know things. A successful person will develop superstitions about certain habits. You have to wake up often, you have to be able to let go, which is the hardest. There is no end game in the business world, as long as you do not withdraw from the rivers and lakes, it is always changing, there may always be the next wave, no pass is finished, it is always the previous level, and the new level is coming.
But this is also the most interesting part, which is that you can go through several reincarnations and still be there, still burning with youth.
Q: Last question, you have been in close contact with a large number of Alibaba's customers, mainly enterprises, for so many years, what are your views on the capabilities and capabilities of Chinese enterprises?
Daniel Zhang: The most common characteristics of Chinese enterprises are strong viability and adaptability. Including going to sea now, there is a consensus that you can survive in such a roll in the country, and if you roll outside, you have a great chance of winning. Survival of the fittest is the greatest capability of Chinese enterprises.
The second is the ability to learn. Chinese diligent and intelligent, from the earliest manufacturing ability to the current product design ability, constantly improved. Of course, we are relatively strong on the user side and marketing side, and we have to work harder in terms of supply chain, product innovation, and digital intelligence. But on the whole, the viability and learning ability of Chinese enterprises complement each other, and I admire them very much. This may also be the most valuable capability of the Chinese entrepreneur community.
epilogue
Before interviewing Daniel Zhang, I had seen a lot of his speeches and not many interviews. Through the interview, I was able to listen closely to his very candid insights.
Among the entrepreneurs I have seen, there are not many entrepreneurs who have both broad and clear business insight, exuberant initiative and strong internal drive, and deep and natural empathy, Daniel Zhang one that impressed me deeply. So as the interview deepened, the words in the Analects popped up in my mind, "Those who know are not confused, those who are benevolent are not worried, and those who are brave are not afraid." In my opinion, Daniel Zhang is such a person who can see the future, sleep well, fight wars, and are not afraid of challenges.
This interview also convinced me once again that the economics of economic growth is, to a large extent, the economics of entrepreneurs' discovery and innovation. Where does entrepreneurship come from? External market-oriented incentives, internal universe stimuli, both are indispensable.
One CEO Daniel Zhang admires is Microsoft's Nadella. He once said: "The real lasting drive is based on itself, that is, self-motivation and self-transcendence through a sense of purpose in work." ”
I also wish Daniel Zhang this sentence the success of Alibaba's organizational transformation and tomorrow in the cloud intelligence era.