【Interview with new book】
Guangming Daily reporter Han Han
Editor's Note
Writer Wang Meng's new book, "Governing the Country and The World -- Wang Meng Reads Xunzi", was recently published by the Guangxi Normal University Press. This is a work that starts from the perspective of a writer, intertwines ideological perception and the thickness of life, and carefully reads traditional classics.
"What I want is Lao Wang's little aura, that little experience, that little bit of ups and downs, that bit of bone-cutting feeling and unique experience, that little bit of reason, that new discovery of thinking." When he published the book "Zhuangzi's Gallop", Wang Meng had such an understanding of his interpretation of the classics. This time, in the new book, there is naturally no shortage of "Lao Wang" witticisms about Xunzi - compared with Kong Meng, Xunzi "has more grounding, and the tone of tall and romantic has lowered a little"; Xunzi has both cultural and moral idealism and the realism of severe punishment; Xunzi's best ideal is to prepare violent coercion means without using it, "to win the world with the king's way", which is really very characteristic of Chinese cultural traditions; Xunzi lacks tolerance and academic democratic concepts, and "double standards"...
We have organized this interview and look forward to readers entering the spiritual world of Xunzi together with Wang Meng.
Courtesy of writer Wang Meng interviewee
Ancient thinker Xunzi
I. "His thoughts are idealistic, but also practical and realistic."
Reporter: The book "Xunzi", compiled by Liu Xiang of the Western Han Dynasty and passed down to posterity, is very rich in content, including chapters on exhortation to study and self-cultivation, designs for "royal ways" and "strong countries", expositions on "etiquette" and "music", speculations on "fame", "Tao", and "sexual evil", and even "endowments" and criticisms of the "Twelve Sons". In your opinion, what are the characteristics of Xunzi's thought? What is the essence of it?
Wang Meng: As a representative figure of Confucianism, Xunzi is characterized by the prominent implementation of benevolent government. He believed that the strength of a princely state was not all in its territory and armaments, but in winning the hearts and minds of the people with benevolence. At the same time, he also combined the rule of etiquette with the rule of law, combined the rhythm, melody, and moving of music with the culture of etiquette, ritual ceremony, and reverence, and standardized the use and maintenance of power, which can also be said to be cultural, ceremonial, moral, and even aesthetic and spiritual.
XunZi emphasizes the importance of life and death, opposes Mozi's theory of thin burial, and at the same time expresses disdain and criticism of the secular theory of gods and ghosts—this is the wisdom of ancient "no debate". He attaches great importance to the number of funeral rites, expressing respect for the elders of the ancestors, cherishing the accumulation of culture and knowledge experience, attaching importance to the development of historical inheritance, cautiously pursuing the future, opposing nihilism and self-proclamation, and also expressing the cherishing and reverence for life. He acknowledged the Mandate of Heaven, but he did not blindly fear it, "The great heavens think about it, and what is it that is controlled by things and animals?" Praise from heaven, and use it with the mandate of heaven? Waiting for the time, what should be done when the time comes? That is to say, instead of just understanding that heaven is great and thinking of remembering it at all times, it is better to grasp the direction of heaven, the direction of the world, and make use of it; instead of always thinking of conforming to providence and constantly singing and saluting the heavens, it is better to grasp the heavenly path and use the heavenly providence; instead of just waiting for the opportunity, it is better to quickly take advantage of the opportunity of reality to govern the country and the world. These ideas, their brilliance and dynamics, lead directly to the exposition of the Chinese revolution in Mao Zedong Thought, and remind people of the Theory of the Russian-Soviet Marxist theorist Plekhanov on the objectivity of the law of historical development and the subjective initiative of man, and are also fully applicable to the new era in which we live.
Reporter: Confucius and Mencius advocated Confucianism, and Xunzi was also one of the representative figures of Confucianism. In your opinion, what are the similarities between Xunzi's Confucianism and The Confucianism of Confucius and Mencius, and what are the differences?
Wang Meng: Xunzi is more pragmatic in order to become a pioneer of Confucianism and Law at the same time. Xun Zi said: "The birth of a person is a small person, and if there is no teacher, it is only the right to see the ear." Xunzi believes that desire itself does not have to be strangled or eliminated, but the key is to make people's behavior conform to etiquette, educate and control norms. These ideas are also extremely meaningful today. It should be said that this is a more truth-seeking and pragmatic statement, and it is a rare proper treatment of "human desire" in ancient China, which is much more reasonable and open than the more loud "heavenly reason, extinguish human desire" statement.
Xunzi's theory of sexual evil is a great contribution, a powerful supplement to Kong Meng's theory of sexual goodness, but it is impossible to reverse the mainstream status of sexual goodness. Sexual goodness is easier to be accepted by the living people than sexual evil, because sexual goodness is nature, evil is against heaven, and goodness is pro-heaven, which is the trinity of heaven, man, and goodness (virtue), which has basic significance for Chinese culture.
Reporter: You have many evaluations of Xunzi in the book, such as "a great Confucian who truly pursues the practical application of the world and can be linked to the reality of governing the country and the world", "there are really two sons"; and "Sometimes, Xunzi's struggle, distinctiveness, and exclusivity are very strong, sweeping through thousands of troops, and the tone is a bit like some of the current Internet celebrities." In your opinion, what kind of person is Xunzi?
Wang Meng: First, he squarely faces the reality of social transitions, the reality of moral crisis, and the reality of the struggle for power and profit, and he hopes to use etiquette and righteousness, law and rule to turn the tide of the tide. Second, he attached importance to indoctrination and etiquette, and used cultural governance to guide the hearts of kings, subjects, soldiers, and people. Third, he insisted on his own opinions, rejected dissent, and did not like or accept any controversy among hundreds of schools of thought, especially those who were sensationalists of the Mo family, famous artists, and empty talkers. Fourth, he attaches importance to the great truth, but also to the specific and micro normative order; to the king, but also to the prime minister; to the monarchy, but also to the king's employment and reward and punishment; to soft power, but also to hard power. His thinking is idealistic, but also practical and realistic.
Confucius was good at formulating and founding, following good examples, accurate and appropriate; Mencius was long in the spirit of Haoran, righteous and strict, clear and firm; Xunzi was long in thoughtfulness, operability, and bullets.
貳 "Tao", "Is the Chinese Concept God"
Reporter: From Xunzi's point of view, you have discussed many of the core concepts of traditional Chinese culture. For example, "the path of cultivating Qi Zhiping has its idealism, beauty, and movingness", "from the Tao and not from the King", "The Tao is more fundamental than the king, and it is more important, this concept has its seriousness and ultimateity." In your opinion, what is the "Tao" pursued by traditional Chinese culture?
Wang Meng: Tao is the ultimate concept of Chinese culture, the concept of God of China, and its interpretation is not complete even in the passages. But here, I just want to say that for thinkers and political commentators like Xunzi, the Tao of Heaven is the way of the sages, the way of humanity, the way of benevolence, the way of kings, the way of gentlemen, and the way of enlightenment, which is the core essence of the "unity of heaven and man" in traditional Chinese culture.
Reporter: What is the significance of Xunzi's "Tao" to the present?
Wang Meng: Xunzi's "Tao", placed today, refers to the truth, refers to the law of historical development and social development, that is, political civilization, political science, that is, the excellent traditional Chinese culture that originated from the chinese nation's civilization of more than 5,000 years, was cast in the revolutionary culture and advanced socialist culture created by the CPC leading the people in revolution, construction, and reform, and is rooted in the truth revealed by the great practice of socialism with Chinese characteristics. Objective truth is above all else, of course.
Reporter: "Xunzi" wrote in the chapter "Zhishi", "The river is deep and the fish and turtles return, the mountains and forests are lush and the animals and beasts return, the criminal government is peaceful and the people return, and the courtesy is prepared and the gentleman returns", and quotes the "Book of Poetry" to "benefit this China, and use the four sides of sui" to argue the role of "etiquette" in the heart. You parse that this passage, in modern parlance, is the role of "cultural nation-building."
May I ask, from "Xunzi", what are the characteristics of traditional Chinese culture? What does such a feature mean today?
Wang Meng: A study of Chinese history shows that emperors are not omnipotent. In history, there are not only emperors with great power, weak strength, and pitifulness, but also the tyrannical emperors of the Xia Jie Shang style, and there are also many emperors who are bound by the etiquette, consultation, court dispute, the pre-emperor system, the sage texts, and the elders of the old ministers. Some emperors want to do things that they can't do in their lifetime. The Chinese tradition, including the system of power, law, and monarchy, also hangs high the Tao, the system of learning, and the unity of literature. These claims have all played a role in practice.
The enthusiasm, practice and etiquette of traditional Chinese culture have been deeply rooted in the hearts of the Chinese people. The May Fourth Movement and the people's revolution and socialist cause led by the Communist Party of China have profoundly reflected, inherited, carried forward, activated, transformed and innovated Chinese culture that has lasted for thousands of years. Without modernization, we will not be able to shake off the tragic fate of being poor, backward, ignorant, and beaten and humiliated; if we do not integrate ourselves with traditional culture, engage in historical nihilism, cut off history, and cut ourselves off from the will of the people, it will be impossible to successfully rebuild and reshape and revitalize the Chinese nation; without practicing socialism with Chinese characteristics, we will only stagnate and destroy the party and the country. For the construction of socialism with Chinese characteristics, the discussion weighs and weighs, the concept of Xunzi, the emphasis on etiquette and righteousness, and the efforts and governance of the day after tomorrow, give people inspiration, make people rise up, and be active. Combined with the new changes in the new era and learning from traditional wisdom, we can enhance our cultural consciousness and cultural self-confidence, and enhance our ability to understand the world, analyze the situation, and effectively respond.
Three is not "I note the six sutras", but "the six sutras note me"
Reporter: "Governing the Country and The World - Wang Meng Reading Xunzi" is another work that interprets traditional Chinese classics after you commented on the publication of books such as Laozi, Zhuangzi, Confucius, and Mencius. What kind of opportunity does it give you a great interest in reading traditional classics in addition to your literary creation?
Wang Meng: It is not so much an interpretation as it is a writer's reading and learning experience, which has both play and excavation.
One of the characteristics of the pre-Qin classics is that the words are concise and concise, abstract generalizations, and one is ten. One of the most favorite words of our literary people is that life is the source of literature. What I want to say is that life is also the source of thought, the source of theory. The tree of life is evergreen. I have come to realize more and more that Confucius Meng lao Zhuang Xun and others, who have written books and sayings, are not only written for the purpose of "investigating the times of heaven and man, through the changes of ancient and modern times, and becoming a family of words", but also for the emperors and teachers, for the gentlemen and scholars, for the mentors and models of the social elite, for the sages, for the power system and civil society of the country and the world, to point out a way for the inner and outer kings, at least the Xuansheng Su king, to govern the country and the world. They do not only know the world, they intend to change the world, answer the new problems and challenges faced under the chaos and change, help the kings, secretaries of state, and scholars to make the right choices, and practice the way of conformity with the heart of the people.
What I tried to do was to connect the texts of the sage masters at the source with the ancient, subsequent, modern, and current streams of life and lessons, understand the tradition, carry forward the tradition, expand the tradition, and try to inherit, promote, develop and create a little.
For example, Xun Zi's exposition of the four kinds of courtiers is vivid and lively, as if it were in front of the eyes. He said that a kind of courtier is called a "state minister," who cannot accomplish much, but is good at taking a stand and is easy to be favored; next, the "meritorious men" are full of executive power, busy with affairs, and have achieved outstanding results; "usurpers" are the worst, usurpers of power and wealth, and are careerists; and the most ideal is the "holy ministers", who not only have a good attitude and have accumulated meritorious deeds, but also become an example for the eternal generations with their sage personality. Such "courtiers" are rarely seen elsewhere. Xunzi has not only generalizations of loyalty, honesty, justice, wisdom, consideration of the overall situation, and mirror hanging high, but also realistic and truthful depictions. Such a depiction can naturally arouse the interest of the reader, including me.
Personally, I have long lacked serious attention and sufficient attention to Xunzi. In the past four years, I have read Xun Sixun and played Xun, and I am extremely interested, and the pain needs to be valued, and then valued, and more valued.
Reporter: When writing "Dancing with Zhuang", you put forward an interesting point - you are talking to Zhuangzi 2500 years ago, but this is not "I note the Six Classics", but "the Six Classics note me", and this "I" is not an independent individual, but a modern person today. In what way and life experience do you think you can read books so that the "Six Classics CanNotNot Me"? When interpreting "Xunzi", how do you get inside and out of it?
Wang Meng: Zhuangzi is very magical, but in fact, his imagination is inseparable from life. He said that "the empty room is white", the empty room is the brightest, satirizing a person who is stuffed with prejudices, spiritual garbage, and emotional viruses, and can only be a dark, chaotic, and difficult person. He also said that a medicine to protect the skin of a washerwoman was purchased by a shrewd merchant and became a military material for King Wu, and won the victory in the Water War in Jiangnan. This should be said to be the only concern about intellectual property at that time, and this story actually came from the "South China Real Person" Zhuang Zhou, please applaud the readers for Teacher Zhuang.
"Xunzi" is very large, Xunzi has good political experience, he is a great sage of Confucianism, and he is also the forerunner of the Fa. The Inner Saint and Outer King, which Zhuangzi first proposed, is actually the concept of Xunzi, and even accepted by the Chinese cultural tradition of Xiuqi Zhiping, which is the ancient Chinese ideal for the king in the power system. Inner saint refers to the soft power of personality, morality, benevolence, and indoctrination to win the hearts and minds of the people, and the outer king refers to the hard power of chariots, weapons, rewards and punishments, authority, and deterrence. These ideas are still valid and powerful today.
As for how to let the "Six Classics Note Me", how to interpret "Xunzi" into it and out of it, I think that when the reader's life experience is gradually enriched, he will naturally understand the meaning of this sentence, and there will be a steady stream of classics to annotate everyone's life.
Guangming Daily (2022.04.23. 12th edition)
Source: Guangming Network - Guangming Daily