For Latin American countries, the United States has always been a shadow that cannot be bypassed on their development path. And with the gradual decline of economic myths and political discourse in Europe and the United States, these countries are increasingly aware that the United States will not work to develop. To dispel American myths, these countries are increasingly seeking to make their voices heard internationally.
On May 4-5, 2023, the Global South International Communication Forum with the theme of "Communication, for Unity" was held in Shanghai. The forum aims to connect progressive intellectuals around the world, unite progressive media from countries and regions in the Global South, share and exchange media practice experience in China and various regions of the Global South, promote diversified cooperation among universities, think tanks, media and other institutions in various countries, and contribute to the promotion of peace and development of a world community with a shared future.
During the forum, the Observer Network invited Carlos Julio Ron Martínez, Deputy Foreign Minister of Venezuela and Director of the Simón Bolivarian Institute of Venezuela, to exchange views on the situation in Venezuela and abroad, the role of the United States in Latin America, and the significance of cooperation between China and Venezuela.
Carlos Julio Ron Martínez, Deputy Foreign Minister of Venezuela and Director of the Simón Bolivarian Institute of Venezuela, was interviewed by the Observer Network
[Text/Carlos Julio Ron Martinez, Interview/Observer Network Yang Hanyi]
Observer.com: Thank you for taking the time to do this. Chinese readers are very interested in Venezuela and want to know what is happening there, so first of all, please make a brief introduction to let everyone have a basic understanding of the current situation in Venezuela.
Carlos: Thank you. Venezuela is a South American country with the world's largest oil resources. But very importantly, she is currently subjected to United States aggression, including the targeting of more than 930 unilateral coercive measures. These measures are erroneously called "sanctions", but we do not call them that because they are inconsistent with international law. This means that Venezuela must both fight the negative effects of these measures and at the same time work to construct a new alternative to neoliberalism and follow its own socialist path – 21st century socialism started by former President Hugo Chávez and inherited by current President Nicolás Maduro and supported by Venezuelan society.
Venezuela faces similar problems to other Latin American countries, such as a history of colonial rule. But at the same time, she is also a resilient country, a country moving forward. Although the current world situation is not good, the epidemic and the so-called "sanctions" have made us have a very difficult life, but we have finally ushered in a relatively strong economic recovery and have great hope for the future.
Observer: In the past few years, the biggest news in the international media about Venezuela has been the so-called "presidential crisis". I wonder how Venezuelan officials characterize this issue? How would you describe this political crisis?
Carlos: I think it's very important to look at this crisis back to the moment President Chávez died in 2013. Until then, Venezuela had been regarded as a thorn in the side of the United States because it had chosen the path of independence and did not succumb to the design of U.S. foreign policy. When President Hugo Chávez died, the moment had come for the conservative opposition and foreign interests in Venezuela to consider them, and finally for regime change and recourse. They thought that the whole (socialist) movement was only promoted by Chávez on his own.
The reality is that the Venezuelan people supported President Maduro and elected him as President Hugo Chávez's successor. The US-sponsored neoliberal forces did not win democratic elections without sufficient support from the Venezuelan people. When democratic elections failed, they began to try other ways to bring about regime change in Venezuela. That is why, in 2019, the United States decided to support the Venezuelan opposition, allowing the former president of the National Congress (Juan Guaidó) to self-proclaim himself president. This is of course illegal and contrary to the Venezuelan constitution, but it is supported by the United States.
Venezuelan opposition leader Guaidó was expelled by the Colombian government after he became an "outcast"
This maneuver, which is rare in the world, gives the false impression that Venezuela has two governments, but in fact there is only one, the democratically elected Maduro government, which has been effectively controlling the state's institutions such as civil servants and the military. However, through media propaganda, diplomatic efforts, and financial means, the United States has sent the world another message that the Venezuelan president is someone else in order to destabilize Venezuela. For several years, this strategy did not succeed. In January, the Venezuelan opposition dissolved the interim government.
Observer.com: Why was Mr. Juan Guaidó treated as an outcast and no longer leading the so-called "interim government"? Is there no support for him in Venezuela?
Carlos: That's the most critical question. His self-proclaimed president's actions have never been supported by the Venezuelan people. People know that this is unconstitutional, and people know that it is ordered by the United States and supported by the United States. But he has not won any support inside Venezuela because he and his political allies have called for sanctions and aggression internationally.
For more than three years, Venezuela has experienced an attempted coup, a drone attack on the president, and an invasion of mercenaries from Colombia. They are trying to achieve only one goal, regime change. However, international calls for sanctions and military incursions against their own countries have made most of the opposition themselves realize that we can disagree with some of President Maduro's actions and proposals, but we cannot attack our own countries. The traitorous actions of extreme anti-government forces such as Guaidó have made them isolate themselves from the people and lose their potential support.
Observer.com: This is the importance of "loyalty" in the so-called "loyal opposition". You must first be loyal to your country.
Carlos: As long as you are a person with common sense, you should not expect your country to be harmed. These unilateral coercive measures have hurt not just individuals, not just the president, not just me, they have hurt the entire Venezuelan people. When international lockdowns prevent Venezuela from importing food, when the pandemic rages and we can't import vaccines, they hurt not just President Maduro, but everyone.
All people with common sense want to live well and live steadily. They are open to controversy and competition in democratic elections. Venezuela has held 26 elections in the past 25 years, sometimes winning by socialist parties and sometimes by right-wing opposition. It doesn't matter whoever wins, that's what democratic politics is all about, but you don't want to see your country attacked, besieged, hurt, and especially you don't want to see a group that will stop at nothing to get to this point for power.
Observer Network: The Biden administration in the United States seems to have relaxed its so-called "sanctions" policy, and it no longer recognizes Guaido as the president of Venezuela. Where do you think diplomatic relations between Venezuela and the United States are headed?
Carlos: The truth is that the United States has not lifted any sanctions against Venezuela. There is an operation in the United States called special licensing. It sanctioned, but it also issued some licenses to maintain some flexibility. Recently, the U.S. government licensed Chevron to the company, not the Venezuelan people. It would be inaccurate to interpret this as the lifting or easing of sanctions. Since Venezuela severed diplomatic relations with the United States in 2019, diplomatic relations have not been restored. We believe that there are several prerequisites for the resumption of bilateral diplomatic relations, and even for the Venezuelan government to begin negotiations with the U.S.-backed opposition.
First, we demand that the United States withdraw its unilateral coercive measures. Because they are unjustifiable, violate international law and harm people, we will never accept and call for the lifting of these so-called "sanctions".
We demanded the return of Venezuelan assets, Venezuelan bank accounts were frozen, and the Bank of England seized 31 tons of Venezuelan gold because the West recognized a non-existent parallel government led by Mr. Guaido; The United States controls Citgo, Venezuela's U.S. asset, which has three refineries in the U.S. and is an important part of Venezuela's oil infrastructure (Note: After the U.S. announced sanctions against Maduro in 2019, the Venezuelan opposition-controlled National Congress ordered Citgo to break away from its parent company, Venezuela's state-owned oil company). We demand that these assets be returned to the Venezuelan people.
We also hope that the legal charges against the Venezuelan government, president, and other leaders will be dropped. They are currently making a series of baseless allegations in domestic courts in the United States and the International Criminal Court, and we hope that these proceedings will be dropped.
And there are a few more things. For example, the United States "kidnapped" Venezuelan government envoy and diplomat Alex Saab and held him in a Florida prison. We demand that the US side release him.
We also demand that the US side gradually unfreeze Venezuelan overseas funds in accordance with the agreement reached between the Venezuelan government and the opposition for humanitarian assistance in Venezuela.
If these conditions are not met, it will be difficult for us to restore diplomatic relations with the United States. The Venezuelan side has always been open to dialogue and to resolving issues through diplomatic means. But we believe that diplomacy is based on mutual respect and recognition, otherwise it is a unilateral attack.
On November 27, 2019, Francys Rivero held her five-month-old son, Kenai, who had just recovered from malnutrition
Observer: The US does not seem to believe that the basis of bilateral relations between Venezuela and the United States is mutual recognition and mutual respect, what do you think is the main reason behind this?
Carlos: For more than 200 years of history, Latin America and the Caribbean, and Venezuela in particular, has been considered its own territory by the United States. The United States holds an expansionist and exceptionalist view and believes that it has the right to control our resources. Any government in Latin America that adopts a diplomatic stance independent of the United States will be attacked by the United States. Fifty years ago, Chile's democratically elected president, Salvador Allende, and his government were overthrown in a military coup.
There are many more such stories. In Guatemala, Nicaragua and many other countries, every time someone stands up against the United States, they are not respected. Venezuela has always respected all countries diplomatically, but that respect needs to be mutual if we are to establish and improve diplomatic relations.
Observer: Your proverb is circulating on the Chinese Internet that Latin America is too far from heaven and too close to the United States. For hundreds of years, the United States considered Latin America its own backyard and legitimized it with the Monroe Doctrine. Just now you mentioned other Latin American countries, many of which 20 years ago turned politically to the left at the same time, setting off a "pink wave". The right wing of many countries returned to power, but Venezuela, from Chávez to Maduro, was the only country to persist in the last wave of anti-imperialism. What makes Venezuela so maverick?
Carlos: I think the reason is that Venezuela is really trying to transform society, and the people see it clearly, so people understand the government's intentions and they recognize it. That commitment began with the drafting of a new constitution in 1999, which gave people more rights and recognized members of society who had been excluded in the past. These things are not only on paper, but the government has earnestly fulfilled the political aspirations of the people through a series of social projects such as poverty alleviation and literacy.
We do not have enough time to solve these problems, because our dependence on oil, the exploitation of it, and the structural poverty it causes, have lasted for a century, and we face too many challenges. In the first years of the revolution, we focused on the eradication of extreme poverty and the repayment of social debt. Many people live into their 40s and never see a doctor because doctors would not go down to certain communities before. Working with doctors in Cuba, we've made a difference. There are also many social transformations that make people feel personally changed, so they are supported.
Venezuela has no hesitation in transforming its society. I think it's harder for other countries because they face such and such constraints and the leadership is hesitant to make certain decisions. This is not the case in Venezuela, where we have always been trusted by the people and have been walking with them until now.
Observer: Judging from your description, the Maduro government in Venezuela has received strong support from the entire people. But in Western media reports, President Maduro appears to have won the battle for legitimacy because of his military support. Do you think this statement is fair? Where does the most fervent support for President Maduro come from?
Carlos: I have to explain about the military, it's important. Latin American political tradition is that the military has always sided with conservative forces, reactionary forces, and foreign interests, because many senior military officers tend to come from the upper classes. It's a class issue. The militaries of most Latin American countries support a strong upper class. The difference in Venezuela is that our military comes from the people, even the senior generals come from the grassroots.
Observer.com: Like Chávez himself.
Carlos: Like President Chávez himself. We have summed up our experience on this issue, the military does not blindly support the president, the military also has a social conscience, they are part of the people, they will not suppress the people for the benefit of a small number of people, they will respect the constitution and help society move forward. All because the army is also part of the people. Venezuela's view of both the military and the masses as part of the people, and together they make up the whole of society, is a very important special feature for us.
Former Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez
Observer: How do you see the revival of the left in a series of Latin American countries such as Brazil and Chile in recent years?
Carlos: We are in a moment of crisis. The capitalist cause is in crisis everywhere in Latin America and around the world. Through the pandemic, it has been discovered that no neoliberal government can guarantee adequate medical care and vaccines. In the midst of a pandemic and climate crisis, they cannot guarantee the supply of food and essential goods. As a result, the neoliberal model is outdated.
Now that the revival of the left in Latin America, or some kind of left-wing, people-friendly model, is gaining ground, it shows that people want governments that people can trust, governments that meet their basic needs, not governments that only cater to big business or foreign interests.
Observer.com: You criticize Latin America's neoliberal line, but the reason why neoliberal economics became popular in the eighties and nineties was because it really drove economic growth in many countries. It is time to abandon it and start the so-called "post-neoliberal" economic landscape. At this time, Venezuela and even the whole of Latin America, what model should rely on to promote economic growth?
Carlos: If the fruits of economic growth are not distributed equally among the people, what is the benefit of this growth, and is it not exploitation? I think Venezuela and other Latin American countries need to guarantee the basic rights of their people in the process of economic growth, so that people have access to health care and education, so that they can really feel better today than in the past, and they will have confidence in the future.
Like China, Venezuela is following a socialist path with our own characteristics. As China said, each country should combine its own characteristics, follow its own model, and follow its own path. Of course, we have to absorb the good things of the 20th century, but in the future we must build our own model based on our own experience, our own needs, and our own goals.
I think we want to strengthen democracy-building and further strengthen democratic participation. It's critical, and Venezuelan social organizations have been supporting the government's social transformation program, so I think continuing to build on that is where we're going.
Venezuela cannot follow the neoliberal path in the future, and that will not work. People don't want to see privatization of health care, education, housing, etc., because the government has shown that this is what it can offer to the people and does not require market-based competition. This is what we are working towards, while guaranteeing social rights and economic growth.
It is difficult to strike a balance, especially given that Venezuela is still very dependent on oil and does not have enough time to develop and diversify other industries. I think the way forward is to invest oil revenues in other productive sectors. We've been trying to do that for the last few years, investing in tourism, infrastructure, manufacturing, so that if you stick with it, Venezuela can reduce its dependence on oil over time.
Domestic refineries in Venezuela
Observer: Many of the information about Venezuela that Chinese Internet users receive through the media tend to attract attention with caricature-style exaggeration, reducing many complex issues to Robin Hood-style robbing the rich and helping the poor, which actually implies that the government lacks the ability to govern society in a modern way. How can we take a more objective and sensitive view of Venezuela's path to modernization?
Carlos: Your media must come to Venezuela, be based in Venezuela. Many media outlets cover Venezuela by partnering with local freelancers. The Venezuela that many of the big-business-controlled media tell is very different from the actual Venezuela. They are against us, in the final analysis, because Venezuela will show another form of society in Latin America, another possibility. This is not the story that big business wants to present.
Therefore, if you use them as a source of information, then you are bound to run into problems. You have to come to Venezuela and see what's happening here, to the cities, to the countryside, to go into the communities, to interact with people, to feel the development here, to feel the resistance of the people. This is the best way to understand Venezuela. We have to move away from the narrative that others have constructed, and those media already have a ready-made narrative, and each story only needs to add a little detail to it.
You have to pick up the traditional media and really do the investigation, do the interviews, otherwise you can't explain why Venezuela has been able to persevere and resist all the way in the face of sanctions and coups to this day. What can the Venezuelan government rely on if it does not rely on the people? How can people support the government if they don't have confidence in the society they're building? So you have to ask why the narratives of the Western mainstream media are not in line with the actual situation in Venezuela, so that many stories can be unearthed.
One of the reasons President Maduro has the support of the people is that he is concerned with social welfare and distribution, which is certainly in the interest of the Venezuelan people, and it is also the responsibility of the government to take care of the people. But the primary purpose of big business and big capital is to make profits, and these profits are not used for distribution, but for investment to expand their business. How do you think the interests of all parties should be aligned?
Carlos: You can't just invest to expand production, you have to protect the interests of the people and strike a balance.
Observer.com: You need capitalists to suddenly grow a conscience.
Carlos: A society that really wants to prosper does require conscience. Moreover, Venezuela is not about reforming capitalism or rebuilding it. We're trying to build something different. We are trying to build a socialism adapted to the realities of the mainland.
Observer.com: What do you think of the term "resource curse"? It sounds like it puts the local people in a passive position, but it cleverly conceals the initiator, as if all difficulties are due to nature. What is the reason for the economic difficulties of these rich countries?
Carlos: You have to see that our dependence on oil has its history, Venezuela and Latin America as a whole has a history of exploitation. It is unfair to put the blame on the people and blame them for not being smart enough, motivated enough, and industrious enough. For more than 200 years, foreign powers have intervened directly in all aspects of Latin America. We are still fighting. We have the upper hand in some places and may lose in others.
China and the international community should understand Venezuela in the context of this struggle. It is very difficult to transform the entire social system under the condition of constant interference and attacks by foreign forces. It is not that we are weak-willed, not that we lack wisdom, but that we are constantly being interfered with.
Changes in oil production in Venezuela since the fall of US sanctions (thousand barrels per day) Source: OPEC Chart: Venezuelanalysis
Observer.com: Can you give us an example of foreign interference in Venezuela? What is your biggest difficulty at the moment?
Carlos: In terms of oil production, Venezuela's economy has improved, with a growth rate of 12% last year, the highest in Latin America. You might be thinking, if you have oil resources, why not increase production? Because of the US sanctions policy, the American-style equipment in our oil fields cannot replace parts, they cannot enter. We can't export oil as we did in the past, and market access is restricted. This is not a question of whether we are diligent or industrious, whether we have a plan or not, it is a question of foreign forces interfering and not allowing us to improve the status quo.
Venezuela is currently under a financial blockade, and we can't negotiate debt, we can't issue bonds. For a long time, we have not been able to use these policy tools commonly used by other countries. The reason why it cannot be used is not that we will not take a loan, but because some foreign country sanctions us and does not allow us to do so.
Observer: What role do you think China can play in Latin America, especially Venezuela, in the future?
Carlos: China has played an important and constructive role in Latin America in recent years. According to my understanding, China's vision for Latin America is to find partners, achieve win-win cooperation, and share the fruits of economic growth. This is very different from what the United States has done in Latin America, where the Americans told us that we have such a developed economy that it is no problem to give you loans, but you have to change the regime and implement a series of measures.
China has never put forward such additional conditions, does not require us to do this and that, but has cooperated with us in agriculture, energy and many other fields, and signed more than 500 agreements. It's a win-win cooperation. I believe that as long as China's cooperation with Latin America and Venezuela is based on mutual respect, the future is bound to be bright.
Observer Network: Peaceful development is a public good that China provides to the world. No matter what kind of people, as long as they are intellectually normal, they will not fail to aspire to peaceful development. But the U.S. government will also interrupt and block the development of other countries based on its own rational calculations, because the "public goods" it provides, or important commodities exported by the United States, are security. The United States can artificially create chaos in other countries and regions, making them dependent on the United States for security guarantees. What do you think the purpose of the United States in doing this?
Carlos: Exactly. The United States has never treated Latin American countries as equals. From the very beginning of the United States as a republic, it saw Latin America as a potential target for annexation, so it condescendingly imposed on us its plans, careers, and way of life. It failed to do so, and now it is facing a financial crisis, an environmental crisis, a crisis of values, and imposing its own values on others is exploiting and oppressing others. In the face of the challenges ahead, we need the values of cooperation. So we think China's approach to foreign cooperation is very convincing, and we like it. As long as the dealings are based on mutual respect and mutual benefit, rather than competing for power and forcing submission, Venezuela's door will always be open.
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