Oral | (Italian) Enio Morricone
Interview with | Antonio Munda
Excerpts | Xu Yuedong
I was in Naples on Friday, June 11, 2010. For five years I have been invited to host a symposium at the festival, which is hosted by Mario Violetni
(Mario Violini)
and David Azzolini
(Davide Azzolini)
Azzolini and I are brothers and sisters, and we have experienced a lot of things together.
Yesterday's protagonist was Jonathan De
（Jonathan Demme）
Tonight's protagonist is Morricone. It's hot today, and a heat wave hangs over the city. During the day I was preparing the scenes to be played during the conversation. The results of the first screening totaled twenty-three images, three times the number of images usually played on such occasions. But I immediately understood that it was very difficult to reduce the number of images, because there were so many images and music. I decided to start with the image of Aron Sanfang and ask a question about Quentin Tarantino, who used the same music in Shameless Bastard. And then there's Leone's "Magic Tricks."
(The Clan of the Sicilians, 1969)
, The Investigation of an Unquestionable Citizen, The Church, The Battle of Algil, The Iron Mask, and Tornatore's filmography. In the end, I still had fourteen images to play, and I couldn't reduce them any more, and the number was twice as many as normal. But I decided to take a risk and leave time alone.
Morricone came by train later in the morning, and we had an appointment for lunch, and when I went to look for him, it occurred to me that we had never eaten together. I saw him a little tired from the trip but was happy to come to Naples. We all ordered crab flat noodles, and while waiting for the waiter to deliver the food, Morricone said to me, "Neapolitans are extremely clever, and this cleverness will be used in good places and bad places." Azzolini dined with us and explained that after the conversation, "Red Dead Redemption" would be broadcast at the same venue, at St. Elmer Castle. Morricone gave a strange expression and said, "Why put that one?" That's Leone and my worst work. ”
We didn't know what to say, and Morricone went on: "Not only did I say that, but Leone also said it. Munda also knew that I had told him that once I went with Leone to the Quirinare Cinema to see Red Dead Redemption, and it had been a year since it was released, and it was still playing in the first round of theaters, and we were proud of it on the one hand, and disappointed in the quality of the film on the other. ”
Morricone
I remember this very clearly, but I still don't know what to say, because I did not participate in the selection of the film, and I was informed of this result on the spot. Azzollini shifted the subject and asked Morricone which one he thought Leone's best work was, and he did not hesitate to reply that it was Once Upon a Time in America and Once Upon a Time in the West.
So I went on to ask who the young director he admired the most was, and Morricone again replied without hesitation: "Paolo Sorrentino."
(Paolo Sorrentino)
。 He then talked to us about the concert in Shanghai, and he said he was satisfied, although "the choir performed ordinary." Then he told me that he saw his little grandson Luca in the United States through Skype and talked about the children. He didn't talk much as usual, but from time to time he spoke a few repetitive dialects, revealing a strong emotion.
After eating the noodles, he ordered fruit, and then asked me to preside over his press conference. This was unexpected, but I readily agreed. The press conference was crowded, and I briefly introduced Morricone to explain the progress of the press conference
In a way, he relayed what he had just told me about Sorrentino. Morricone said he would add a few words: "I always felt like I could give more to the film, but I don't think it's going to work because honestly no one needs it." Movies need to communicate with the audience, and music shouldn't create problems from it. Our job is not easy, and some things are difficult to do unless the director agrees. Munda probably heard me say many times that when I worked with Bedoly on Secluded Places in the Countryside, and when I worked with Aquido, I was able to fully express myself, and I came up with the idea of structural music, improvisational music, and expression music. ”
A reporter asked him about his work with Tornatore, Leone and Bertolucci, saying they were among the greatest directors he had ever worked with.
Morricone: A Magical Moment in 50 Years, Narrated by Enio Morricone, by Antonio Monda, translated by Anyu Ni, Houlang | Beijing United Publishing Company, June 2016
Morricone disagreed with this statement, saying he only worked with the directors he could get, explaining that if he only worked with a director once, it meant that they were a little displeased. Sometimes conflicts don't happen right away, such as with Roberto Faenza
(Roberto Faenza)
That's it. Morricone said he had great respect for Faenza, but in the last few collaborations, Faenza seemed less satisfied with the ideas he had put forward. But they're working on the movie "Expansion of Power."
（Escalation，1968）
At that time, Morricone still experimented with all kinds of strange sounds, except for the funeral scene at the end of the film, where Faenza explicitly asked for jazz. He concluded: "Sometimes the most natural choice is the most correct choice." ”
A reporter asked him if he would perform at the San Carlo Concert Hall in Naples, to which Morricone replied relentlessly: "Never." I wrote a fifty-minute piece of music for the partenope myth, which recounts how Naples and the Bay of Naples were born, and San Carlo never invited me, and I was angry that it was the Massimo Concert Hall in Palermo, Sicily, who had come to invite me, but I decided to keep it myself. ”
The reporter is flying like a fly, everyone has a number in mind, and tomorrow's newspaper will have a very explosive headline. Other questions were hurriedly asked, not too big a flashpoint, and finally, in response to the heartfelt touch of the Oscar Lifetime Achievement Award, Morricone decided to recite a poem by de Circiala, saying that he was on a par with Jacob Buni da Todi, and then began to read it in the standard Roman dialect, ending with great enthusiasm.
Two hours later, we met again. Morricone asked me to look for him in the hotel suite where he was staying. Just after the opening match of the World Cup, the host country, South Africa, was originally in the lead, but finally played with Mexico. Morricone watched the match, but he was looking forward to the Italian team coming on next Monday.
I told him I wanted to start with the new generation of Italian directors.
Satisfied and humiliated works
Morricone: I think Sorrentino is one of the most talented. I've only seen two of his films, both of which impressed me: The Price of Love.
（The Consequences of Love，2004）
It was made great, and the other one was "Big Star"
(Il divo: La spettacolare vita di Giulio Andreotti, 2008)
。 Once I met him and after expressing my compliments to him, I said, "To be honest, I don't want to work with you at all." "He thought it was funny, but I was serious.
Q: Among the young directors, who else do you admire?
MORRICONE: I think Mateo Garone
(Matteo Garrone)
It's also excellent, "Gomorrah"
(Gomorrah, 2008)
It's a very important movie.
Q: What are your thoughts on how Italian cinema has changed over the years?
Morricone: By February 2011 I've been doing film scores for fifty years. The most obvious change is the sharp decline in film production compared to the past. The decline of cinema, the rise of television, the rhetoric of cinema has changed, becoming more elite, which is not necessarily a good thing.
Q: Over the years, have your film scores and pure music sometimes become closer and sometimes distant?
Morricone: Of course, starting with Secluded Place in the Countryside, all the films I talk about are like this.
Stills from "Secluded Places in the Countryside".
Q: Is there any director who made you musically rewarding?
Morricone: Actually, working with any director pays off. Every director gives me something different and unexpected, and even if the idea that Gillod Pentkovo came up with on the soundtrack to The Battle of Algier was very intimidating, it was just as exciting. Later I composed his ideas into orchestral scores and developed different variations, but the original creator was still him.
Q: Is there any musical work you are not satisfied with?
MORRICONE: No, honestly no. But I told you, when I saw that "The Secluded Place" was doing poorly at the box office, I proposed to the producer Grimaldi that I would rewrite the soundtrack for free. I myself love the original soundtrack and think it's one of my best pieces, but I can't turn a blind eye to the cooling of audience enthusiasm that my abstract music can cause.
Q: If I were to ask you to name three of the most representative works, would it be possible?
Morricone: I refuse to answer because it is impossible to answer.
Q: I've worked so hard for a year that I think I have the right to ask that question.
Morricone: "The Church" in "On Earth, As in Heaven", "The Song of Deborah" in "Once Upon a Time in America", and Tornatore's film "Station of the Hidden Country", "The Pianist at sea", "Baalia" choose one or three.
Q: Today I'd like to ask a few of the more disrespectful questions, and then I'll go back to the musicians you particularly appreciate.
Morricone: Hearing this, I don't feel any disrespect. I admire Kriverly, he's a great composer, and I think I've mentioned his name before.
Q: Yes, but what I want to know is your students.
Morricone: Antonio Bocce
（Antonio Poce）
, in Frosinone
(Frosinone)
The Conservatory studied with me for three years.
Q: Have you ever found certain peers influenced by your work?
Morricone: Yes, occasionally, I know what their perception of this influence is.
Q: Do you have any completed musical works that you have thrown away?
Morricone: Only once, Sarche was making the movie "One Woman, One Million"
（A Girl and aMillion，1962）
When I was asked to compose a twenty-second piece of music to set off the mood of the characters in the play: he stood in an empty room, he loved the mountains, he was a widower, he was hungry, and he was desperate. I tried to put all this stuff in and it turned out to be a terrible piece of music. In just twenty seconds, the soundtrack can't convey much information and feelings. Movie music needs to be simple and straightforward. I was just starting out on film scores, naïve, but I immediately realized that something wasn't right. Maybe pure music is possible, such as the little pieces that Webern wrote. Another time, directed by Duccio Tesari
(Duccio Tessari)
For the movie "G-Force"
(Force"G",1971)
Ask me to do a piece between the Mexican March and the folk song "Song of the Bassano Bridge"
(The bridge of Bassano)
At that time, I was more experienced in the music, and I said to him, "Choose one of these two." ”
Q: Once you told me that you wrote a tune called "Go-car Racing Twist" and you felt ashamed.
Morricone: That song was really badly written, but today I'll be honest with you, that's not the only song that makes me feel ashamed, I mean pop...
Q: I guess I can't miss this opportunity, please tell me which one else?
Morricone: Oh, there's another song for the Italian singer Mirva
(Milva)
Written, the song title is "Four Clothes"
(Four Dresses)
, a pretty bad song. If you think about it, there's a Johannes Brahms interspersed in the middle of the song
(Johannes Brahms)
The Hungarian dance music, very scary. Not only is it terrible, it's worse than that, it's mediocre. The original idea was lyricist and record producer Franco Migliach
(Franco Migliacci)
Yes, but I am fully responsible for the failure of this song.
Q: Have you ever written music for yourself?
Morricone: One is the one that I just said at the press conference, "Partenope."
(Partenope)
I had hoped to have the opportunity to perform in public. When I was younger, I wrote some tunes inspired by Salvatore Quasimodo
(Salvatore Quasimodo)
of poems, as well as other writers such as Cesare Pavese
(Cesare Pavese)
, Domenico Glognoli
(Domenico Gnoli)
, Fukuko
（Fukuko）
, works by Giacomo Leopardi.
But none of these pieces have been played, and I don't think they'll ever be played.
Q: Are you satisfied with those pieces?
Morricone: Some of them were crazy, maybe because I wasn't mature enough. Once I wrote a piece of music inspired by an amateur poet whose name I don't remember, and the first line of that poem was, "Distance is everywhere in our hearts," and that poem is beautiful, writing about mountains, about landscapes, about rivers, but it's all in our bodies.
Q: Can you talk about what makes you feel most disappointed in the music industry?
Morricone: One of the things that strikes me as odd is that I find that a lot of composers, especially American composers, don't write orchestral scores for their own pieces. I don't want to name names, but there are many well-known, heavyweight musicians. I was puzzled by this, and it made me re-evaluate the true value of those musicians I had originally thought were great musicians.
Let's talk about pure music
Q: I wonder how you use pure music to give you freedom compared to a film score? In other words, isn't pure music more capable of making you realize yourself?
MORRICONE: I don't think about it from that perspective. I would like to reiterate a few of the points we have made before. This kind of music was the fundamental reason I learned to compose, at that time I did not expect to one day put into the film score work, I know a lot of people think that film score is just a kind of service industry. Of course, pure music makes me more free, and I only have to take responsibility for myself. But historical experience tells us that music written on behalf of others, or written in the service of others, can sometimes be great music. For example, Haydn
（Haydn）
He wrote hundreds of symphonies, as well as Georg Philippe Tellerman
(Georg Philipp Telemann)
He also writes music for dining occasions. Handel
(Handel)
He wrote music for fireworks, and Bach wrote oratorios for Mass. I told you that it took me nine months to prepare my first orchestral concert, and after earning a meager and ridiculous remuneration, I decided to devote myself to the soundtrack. I did the arrangement first, and the response was good, and then I entered the film circle. But I still often think that pure music has no restrictions, and no one will ask me anything, unlike movies, the director is the one who holds absolute power.
Q: Don't you think limits inspire creativity?
Morricone: There's no doubt about that, but it's important to be able to transcend limitations and shackles. Speaking of which, I would like to add that music doesn't become sacred because the title is well-lit, or because you say it's peaceful and sounds peaceful. I said that when I do film scores, I often have to try to break through the limits, and sometimes the director doesn't know it, but I think I did.
Q: Your pure music, as well as contemporary music, is generally not easy to understand, and often requires cultural literacy and preparation that ordinary people do not have.
Morricone: This great, epoch-making change began in Wagner
（Wagner）
and his opera Tristan and Isolde
(Tristan and Isolde)
, and then the composer began to study the chromatic scale. Before that, tonal music was basically based on a seven-tone scale, of which four tones belonged to the fifth tone, so that the listener's senses had a support point, and those tones were repeated for everyone to understand, which was a sequence that made the melody have a basis. After Tristan and Isolde, Schoenberg set out to theorize the twelve-tone column, which in turn elevated its status to keep pace with the seven-tone column. The deprivation of the importance of several notes led to the democratic mechanisms of music, and interestingly, this musical revolution coincided with the rise of democracy in many countries. Schoenberg further proposed a theory that a tone should not be repeated until eleven other tones appeared. It was a revolution, and after listening to the melodious melody for hundreds of years, the simplest measure was suddenly abolished, and the index of evaluation was only timbre, pitch and length, and at the same time began to value silence. But such music naturally cannot provide a pleasant feeling in a short period of time. There are also some works that are not so difficult to understand, such as Alban Berger
(Alban Berg)
His use of the twelve-tone column is more flexible. But in general, I recommend listening to pure music at least twice.
Q: Why is this sudden change happening in concerts?
Morricone: It's very direct, but it can't be said to be sudden. The forms of expression of other arts have also undergone revolutionary changes, and I still think that this should go hand in hand with the changes in politics and history. Then we have the freedom of harmonics today, or we can borrow the name of our group, the freedom of "new harmony."
Q: Which of these musicians do you admire the most?
Morricone: Luigi Nono
(Luigi Nono)
, excellent. Alongside him are Brenz and Luciano Berio
(Luciano Berio)
, Clementi, Georg Ligeti
(Georg Ligetti)
and Stockhausen.
Stills from Once Upon a Time in America.
And my teacher, Pietrasi, later joined the ranks of the twelve notes, but his personal characteristics did not change. In fact, everyone's personal style and beliefs cannot be changed.
Q: When you talk about film scores, can you also make such a delicate analysis?
Morricone: My answer to your question is that film scores are too often overlooked, and from a historical point of view, music critics have made a lot of mistakes. Every type of music, for better or worse, is a mirror of society, and in addition to the authors who create music, society also gives birth to music.
Another world
Q: We're at the end of our conversation, and I think it's my duty to ask you some more personal questions.
Morricone: I think, at this point, I can't get out.
Q: Do you believe that there is another world after death?
MORRICONE: It seems that you will still come back to this question. In fact, I often think of this question in my heart. I am Catholic, and although I believe in religion, I don't think there is a belief that is not doubtful. My religion tells me that there is another world, and that is the real life. Yes, I believe, but that doesn't mean I have a clear idea of it. Once, at a seminar, I asked a religious scientist what would happen to a person who had donated his organs at what the Catholic Church called the resurrection moment, and he said it was a symbolic statement. I thought about it for a long time, and I couldn't figure it out with my own logic. I think of the phrase: You are dust and will return to dust.
Then I thought about the violent acts that mankind had done since its creation, such as the Romans who had come up with such a cruel thing as crucifying man. In any case, thinking about the end, despite sometimes falling into a low ebb, I was deeply moved by Christ and his teachings, and I saw that around Christ were fragile but benevolent people, such as Pilate. Even for non-Catholics, I think Christ is still an important figure in history. I often think of the revolution he led, which, from many angles, heralded socialism and even communism. I think a true Christian cannot be a conservative.
Poster for the movie Cinema Paradiso.
Q: Do you like to write religious music?
MORRICONE: Yes, I love it. I just finished writing an orchestral piece by a baritone called Jerusalem.
（Jerusalem）
。 I base myself on three passages, namely: Old Testament Verse 72, Verse 3
("May the mountains bring peace to the people, and may the hills bring justice to the people.") ”）
; New Testament Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5, verse 9
("Blessed are those who make peace, for they are to be called children of God.") ”）
; Koran, chapter 13, thunder
("Peace may come to you, for you are indomitable.") ”）
Q: What are your thoughts on other religions?
Morricone: I don't know much about other religions, but I believe that religion itself is about exhorting people to be good.
Q: Do you pray?
Morricone: Yes, sometimes I pray when I don't think so, like when I'm exercising. It was all a prayer from the heart, and I didn't even notice it myself.
Q: Have your children been baptized?
Morricone: Yes, all four were baptized, and two of them were married in church.
Q: What blessings do you have for them?
Morricone: Hopefully their dreams come true, hopefully they can find the right path. You know, Andrea decided to be a composer, and Giovanni wanted to be a director. I used to persuade them to give up because I knew very well how tough the industry was.
Q: But you've proven that aspirants can do it!
Morricone: I know, but it's really hard. Today, the music and film industries are in decline: more and more amateurs are joining because they are cheaper for producers. And Italy is facing a serious crisis, and culture is increasingly undervalued. Recently I met the German Minister of Culture, who was struggling with the survival of the four orchestras and four choirs in Berlin. When he said this, I thought of Rome, where there have been only two orchestras left since the dissolution of the Italian Broadcasting Corporation Orchestra. I had a similar conversation with a music director in Budapest, where operas are performed every night, and they have an organization with two orchestras and two choirs on a regular basis, and we only perform six operas a year. Italy certainly has a long tradition of opera, but it is no longer a musical kingdom.
The time has come to say goodbye. Morricone sent me to the door as usual.
Unless there are special circumstances, the dialogue that was conducted for the sake of this book ends today. I was about to walk toward the stairwell when I stopped and asked him another question.
QUESTION: Morricone, I want to ask a very disrespectful question at the end, I hope you don't mind.
Morricone: I know you're going to have to ask sooner or later. Please say.
Q: Suppose a hundred years later, your name appears in an encyclopedia, how would you like to be defined?
Morricone: What definition do you mean that satisfies me the most?
(Silence for a while, smiling)
composer.
This article is excerpted from Morricone, asked by Antonio Monda, and published with the permission of the publisher Houlang Publishing Company.
Excerpt from Xu Yuedong
Edited by Xu Wei