Li Yinuo. Photographer: Gao Yuan
Choose to challenge 1620, leave the "dragon whisker" bangs, and blossom three flowers of school, sports and fashion, which is Gu Ailing's way to break the boundaries of women.
At the just-concluded Winter Olympics, she achieved 2 gold and 1 silver, becoming the first extreme athlete to reach the podium in all three competitions. In interviews with the media, she has repeatedly said that encouraging more girls to break their boundaries and enjoy love is her goal, and it is also the biggest gold medal in her heart.
In addition to Gu Ailing, there are Xu Mengtao, who finally won the championship in four Winter Olympics, Janice Spitery, a Maltese "bean bag" girl who competed alone, and women's football team that re-won the championship after 16 years, etc., these athletes have faced gender restrictions. But their brilliance has given a new note to women's power.
What is Feminine Power? How can women push boundaries? Where does the power come from? How do women face workplace and reproductive pressures? In this regard, the Beijing News Shell Financial Reporter interviewed Li Yinuo, global managing partner of McKinsey& Company, chief representative of the Gates Foundation Beijing Representative Office, and co-founder of Yitu School.
"Mother of three" is also a label for Li Yinuo, who worked as a project manager at McKinsey, gave birth to her first child at her busiest time, and gave birth to two children after being promoted to partner, "how to balance work and life" is a question she is often asked, in this regard, Li Yinuo said, "Balance is impossible, more important is the trade-off." ”
But she does not approve of using her as a benchmark, she believes that the decline in women's fertility intentions and the low fertility rate are the problems we can see on the iceberg, in fact, there are many hidden structural problems under the iceberg that have not been seen.
In the female workplace environment, Li Yinuo believes that the current overall situation is still very severe, there are many problems, such as not daring to fight, facing a lot of criticism on the way to promotion, etc., and the solution of these problems can not only rely on women, structural restrictions require more men, the participation of the whole society.
Talking about Gu Ailing and the rise of female athletes:
They live out their professions and the value of their lives
Beijing News: In recent years, women's power has been frequently mentioned, as the Chinese women's football team has become the AFC Champions League, Gu Ailing won the first gold medal in the big jump event of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics, and more female athletes have been seen, how do you think about this phenomenon? What do you understand as feminine power?
Li Yinuo: Now female athletes are seen, whether it is women's football or other women's sports, in fact, it is because they have lived out the value of their profession and the value of life. All women and men have the same rights and possibilities to participate in the field, and sports are a very typical example. Therefore, I think the greatest value shown from athletes is that they maximize their potential, improve their abilities, and live the value of their lives.
Beijing News: Regarding Gu Ailing, you wrote an article after she won the first gold medal of the Winter Olympics, and in reality, the vast majority of girls have no chance to become Gu Ailing. What was your original intention in writing this article?
Li Yinuo: My original intention in writing this article was to discuss the relationship between [Gu Ailing] and ordinary people. It is impossible for the vast majority of people to cultivate world champions in their families, but not being able to train world champions does not mean that your homeschooling is a failure. So I think it is more important for everyone to realize that the most important thing for children to grow is the environment of family acceptance and support, this environment can actually be created by every family for their own children, and our society should also be an acceptance and support for the growth of children, rather than this kind of high elimination, high choice, success and failure of the idea.
Because if it is the idea of success and failure, then the vast majority of people in society will be victims and losers, and such a society is actually unhealthy and intolerant. Therefore, seeing such a genius as Gu Ailing and people who can be cultivated in this specific environment, we applaud it, and we can't say that because we see this, we feel that the rest of the people are losers.
Beijing News: You are also an elite mother like Gu Ailing's mother, and you also have the convenience of "each taking what they need" educational resources in China and the United States. Do you take your kids to cram school during winter and summer vacations?
Li Yinuo: I don't take them (children) to cram school, I think the trap that everyone needs to avoid is to label some things. For example, whether the cram school is good or bad, I think he may be neutral, and he is like Gu Ailing growing up in the United States for some children, just make up for a day or two I think it is okay. But if everyone is in cram school, and everyone is doing this theatrical effect outside of class, then it is harmful.
I think that in fact, the cram school should not always be placed at the level of personal family and choice, and those families who go to huangzhuang to attend the cram school may not be willing, but he has been under systematic pressure, such as all the people in the class, which is his choice but he is forced to make a choice under pressure.
In fact, why it will eventually lead to a lot of tuition, in the end, is because you are in the evaluation system. I joked that if Tsinghua had to take the tractor exam one day, everyone would go to learn tractors. In fact, in the end, everyone is making their own family choices and behaviors under the baton of the evaluation system.
On Fertility and Education:
Work-life balance is not possible, and more importantly, trade-offs
Beijing News: You had your first child when you were a project manager, and then the intensity of your work as a managing partner has doubled, how did you do it and then have a second and third child?
Li Yinuo: At that time, I didn't have children after being married for 8 years, and I really didn't think clearly about why I wanted to have children. After having the eldest, because I was an only child, but I also had cousins and brothers when I was a child, it was a very good memory for me, so I decided to have more children, and I also hoped that they would be of similar age and have playmates.
After thinking about it clearly, I felt that I must do this thing, and since I must do it, it is better to do it as soon as possible. At that time, the work thing felt that it must be arrangable, but the matter of having children had a certain time window. At first, the idea was that I had a lot of things, and I had a lot of children, and I had a hard time balancing, but then I quickly realized that balance was impossible, and the so-called balance was actually an illusion or an illusion, so it was more important about trade-offs.
Because of the limited time and energy, I will not do some things in my life, and there are many things in my work that I will not take. People can't do everything, but on the other hand, this also forces us to become a deeper thinker in various fields, because in our work or in life, in fact, there are many times when we are wasting time and doing useless work, so in fact, it forces you to really think about what kind of problems we want to solve, and what things are worth investing in time.
Beijing News: What do you think of the lower fertility rate of some women in China, especially in first- and second-tier cities?
Li Yinuo: This is a very big question, and I am not a population expert, but there are a few ideas.
First of all, on the whole, with the increase in women's education level, the willingness to have children has declined, which is the case in the world, because in fact, childbearing is more restrictive than happy for women under the existing social structure, so the overall trend is definitely like this, and it is not just a problem in China.
Second, I think even in this trend, there is still a lot that can be done to support and improve women's fertility willingness. As mentioned earlier, the women's problem is not a rose-colored entertainment problem, it is a problem of social equity, and there are still a lot of structural restrictions on women. These restrictions are not broken, and it is difficult to make real progress.
Fertility is the result of "explicit", we can see that children are born or no children are born, but in fact the structural inequality of women is often implicit, like the unpaid work just talked about, you are at home you wipe the floor your husband does not wipe the floor, but if no one to investigate who knows, there seems to be no social consequences.
These hidden structural problems, if you use the iceberg as an analogy, in fact, most of the problems are below the iceberg, you may see only the problem above the iceberg, like how many children are born. But the real problem is the problem under the iceberg, if the problem under the iceberg is not solved, only to say that you must have children, do not treat people as fertility machines, this is a very barbaric behavior, is an uncivilized way of thinking. Therefore, if the decline of the dominant newborn can be regarded as an improvement in the structural problems that can be seen implicitly below.
On women's power and plight:
The women's problem is not a rose-colored problem, but fairness
Beijing News: Your new book" Where does power come from? In the face of every dare not" mentions that women are still subject to many structural constraints in the environment, what are these structural restrictions reflected in, and how do they affect women's progress? Do you think the environment is getting better now?
Li Yinuo: There are actually many structural restrictions on women, and in the final analysis, it is because society has a strong tendency to instrumentalize people, especially for women. In fact, men are also victims of instrumental thinking.
I mentioned in the book some superficial criteria, such as UN Women has an indicator called unpaid work, which is the work done at home, taking care of children, taking care of family, housework. No pay is not meaningless, but because there is no pay, it has no "value" in the language of business, and this unpaid work, where women are 2-3 times more men worldwide, and there has been no meaningful progress over the years, is a classic example of structural limitation.
Beijing News: We talk about independent women, but many women still face some practical dilemmas, how to solve these dilemmas?
Li Yinuo: First of all, more people should realize the macro dilemma of external reality, and speak up and promote. Because if these works are not promoted, blindly emphasizing women's self-reliance and self-reliance is actually an inequality relative to women.
The next step is to support each woman to make decisions related to her own life according to her own micro conditions. Don't say that you see people who are so busy having three children, so you can too. Everyone's dilemma is different, but if faced, supported and approached, each dilemma has the potential to be alleviated. So what we need to do is to support each person to make their own decisions according to their own specific situation.
On Women's Workplace and Leadership:
The solution of structural constraints cannot be achieved by women alone, but by the participation of more men and society as a whole
Beijing News: In the book, it is mentioned that women always wait for the crown in the workplace, and they have a sense of shame for fighting, how did you cross the hurdle of "shame"?
Li Yinuo: This problem is very common, I think maybe many women have this problem, always feel that gold will always shine. But in fact, I think this is the misunderstanding of our education, we will think that it is just a matter of waiting, and we think that if you go to fight, it is despised.
But the actual situation is that there are two, the first is that the selection process of many companies is open and transparent, this process is not to say that there are several people sitting there hand-picked, I see who is good, not so, many companies have a professional program. The second is that even if you follow this procedure, you need to let others see your work in its entirety. Later, when I was a leader myself, I would know that leadership is not "God" and know that everything happens. ”
So, in fact, after you know these two points, first follow the company's process to do it, and the second is to know that it is not that as long as I do it, others can see it, I still have to take the initiative to make a presentation of my work. If you do 100, you will realistically say 100, which is the attitude of striving for professionalism.
Beijing News: At present, women's leadership is on the rise, have you observed that women in China have made progress compared with when you were studying?
Li Yinuo: I think in fact, the overall situation is still very grim, as I just said, over the years, in fact, these structural restrictions on women and so on have not really improved in the overall sense.
However, in the overall grim situation, there are indeed a lot of exciting places, like there are all kinds of women's forums, including media voices, columns, features, and then there are many stories related to women, which I think are very good. In fact, it is a process to be continuously promoted, because in the final analysis, the women's problem is not a rose-colored problem, not just a problem of urban women, but a problem of social fairness, and the solution of this problem requires social justice, progress in the rule of law, policy arrangements, and public opinion concerns.
I'm often invited to some women's leadership forums, and I've observed that these forums are basically women's organizations, women participate, and of course that makes sense, but I think there are problems because the implicit assumption is that women's leadership is a women's problem. In fact, no, if we don't have a holistic or common understanding in the workplace, and there are not enough men who think that female leadership is important to them and important to the company, this will always be defined as a "partial" niche problem.
Therefore, I would like to see more men participate in the discussion of women's issues, because in the end, the solution of structural problems requires the participation of the whole society, and it is impossible for women to solve them themselves. It seems that the problem of children cannot be solved by children, and it requires the participation of the whole society, and I think this aspect is still relatively lacking.
Beijing News: Is there anything you don't dare to do now?
Li Yinuo: A lot of ah, the human journey when you look back must be a lot of new things, the process of writing this book, or we are doing this Q&A now, in fact, it is the process of facing yourself, in fact, a lot of things it is not necessarily a big thing, not necessarily saying that today I am going to prepare for the moon landing, no.
When each of us goes to look closely at our own hearts, we have a lot of restrictions on ourselves, for example, I am a girl, so how am I, I am 40 years old, so how am I, I am a mother, so how I am, in fact, I think many of these restrictions are false, it does not matter, you can do a lot of different things in any so-called external identity. I myself am far from living a state of ignorance and fearlessness, and can only be said to be much better than when I was 20 years old.
So I said something in the book: "Hearing your own inner voice and touching your true life does not bring immediate success." On the contrary, the norm of life is "failure", the night walk. But the other truth of life is that when you walk, you will walk out of the darkest part of the road. At this time, looking back, you will want to hug yourself in the dark and thank her: thank you, no matter how scared, no longer lonely, and have not given up! The road ahead may not be smooth, but as long as you keep walking, it will not be a dead end. "In fact, each of us has a journey like this.
Beijing News shell financial reporter Song Meilu intern Xiong Ke Editor Xu Chao Proofreading Chen Diyan
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