Press: Yukio Kanagawa is a representative Japanese theater director and the father of the well-known photographer Maehana Kuagawa. In Japan, he was known as the "Three Heroes of Japanese Theater" along with Tadao Suzuki and Keita Asari, and overseas, he was active on the international stage with the adaptation of Shakespeare's plays and Greek tragedies, opening up a unique path for the aesthetics of east-west theater, so he was known as the "World's Curl River". In the book "A Thousand Blades and a Thousand Eyes", Yukio Kawakawa's memoirs of his career, he tells the story of his journey from entering the underground theater in the 1960s to becoming a stage director, and then deciding to devote himself to commercial drama, step by step, stepping out of the country and entering the international heart.
In his half-century-long career as a director, Yukio Kuagawa has directed hundreds of sharp-minded and stylistic works, while at the same time he has been controversial for his radical creative ideas and maverick way of working. During his time at the Young Pioneer Underground Theatre Company, he was even confronted by a young man holding a folding knife against his abdomen and questioning the meaning of the work. This experience has become a mantra that Yukio Kawakawa has always remembered in his future creations, always reminding him to reflect on himself, break through limitations, and spare no effort for drama. "If there were a thousand young people sitting in the audience, they would be holding a thousand sharp blades in their hands. I thought, I've got to build a stage that's big enough to fight a thousand sharp blades. That's my mission. ”
With the belief of "a thousand blades and a thousand eyes", Yukio Kugawa bucked the current again and again in the impact of the times. In the book, he also shares with readers valuable experiences in the theater industry, for example, as a creator, how should you capture inspiration from your daily life? As a director, how should you train all kinds of professional and non-professional actors? And when the career enters the peak and gradually grows in age, how should we face the wear and tear of creativity and struggle and transform from it? These vivid details may help us to understand this anti-bone drama master more fully. With houlang's authorization, Interface Culture (ID: Booksandfun) excerpted a dialogue with Shu chuan from Thousand Blades and a Thousand Eyes for the benefit of readers.
<h3>"Dialogue with Yukio Kawa: What is a Director"</h3>
Statement | Yukio Ninagawa | Yōmyo
○ There is no such thing as "director's intention" or "director's words" in your program list. Usually, no matter what performance you watch, the purchased program list will write out the director's thoughts in the performance in some form.
● Yes, I don't write. If the audience first reads these directors' intentions, or articles explaining the spirit of the stage, and then watches the performance, then after watching the performance, the audience may find that they cannot see what is written in the text on the stage at all, only the cheeky words remain on the program list, and it is not uncommon for the audience to be bored with this phenomenon. Since I tried to work as a director, I didn't like this type of deception, so I always resisted explaining my directorial intentions on the program list. I think that everything ends up on stage, and this kind of thinking makes me stop worrying about whether the audience will understand my intentions. Many times the director's words are either enlightenment to the audience, or justify the performance that is not good. Now there are too many stage performances that must be understood after watching the program list, or they still do not understand it after watching it.
○ So, does it not matter if the meaning of your work is not conveyed correctly?
● I don't know what you mean by "properly communicated". Please think about it, for the audience, there are many reasons to watch the play, there are a thousand audiences have a thousand motivations, a thousand lives. Trying to convey the message in the performance is also too heavy. And how the audience wants to understand this work, I can't point fingers from the side, it's like saying something to interfere in other people's lives. I don't like that. Whether it is daily life, life, or people, it is too heavy.
○I heard that you have always refused interviews from drama magazines, is it true?
● That's right. In fact, I have never seen a drama magazine in 8 years and refused to be interviewed. When I found that the reviews and criticisms of the theater magazines simply could not match the toil of my work, I was less interested in these. I don't have much contact with the theater industry, but I'm happy to be interviewed by a weekly magazine or a women's magazine. You should know from the newspaper reviews that are full of industry-specific rhetoric and arrogant rhetoric that never seems to have self-doubt. I think everyone should go back to being a serious person and try to think about what it means to watch a play for ordinary people. In short, let's start by spending money to buy tickets to watch the play.
○What is the director for you?
● If I can answer this question, I don't need to continue directing now.
○ But some directors will also publish books explaining the connotations of the director's work.
Those people succeed in objectifying themselves through writing. But there was no way I could find myself by writing. I deeply feel that I am a person who can only find myself in the relationship between things and people, but this is a matter of qualification, not a matter of value. People often misunderstand that this is a matter of value.
○ So, what do you think is the director's responsibility?
●Varies depending on the situation. Sometimes you have to be an educator, unfortunately, sometimes you have to be a teacher of acting guidance, it's not the same. And I don't think the word duty is used appropriately.
○ So what should I say?
● I will read the script intensively first. The screenplay is a kind of literature. If I get moved by the script, then I will want to turn the work into a drama. What exactly is this emotion? Where did it come from? To find out, I rearranged it into a theatrical form. Because I think the theatrical form is the best for my qualifications. Rehearsal is the process of finding out where this emotion comes from. On the first day of the performance, I really knew what I was moved by. In the sense I have just said, I feel that the so-called director is just a leader who is the first to be moved and runs in the front. I don't know how the other directors are, though, I am.
○ Some directors will delete or add lines written by writers, what about you?
I don't do that at all. My life can only be talked about through the language of other people's writing, and my directing work must be placed in this framework. If I cut and paste the work again, my principles will disintegrate. You can only rely on other people's language to talk about your own life, in fact, actors are the same. However, this seemingly humiliating structure is the most stimulating to our imagination. Whether it's Sophocles, Shakespeare, North and South (Tsuruya Namboku, a prominent Kabuki writer of the late Edo period in Japan), or Konmatsu, I don't want to lose to them. Without the backbone of absolutely not wanting to lose, you would never be able to do this kind of work of talking about your life through the language of others.
○ You have directed the works of many writers, such as Shakespeare, Sophocles, Euripides, Brecht. The only Japanese playwrights are Kunio Shimizu, Toshiro, Matsuyo Akimoto, Yukio Mishima, and Tsuruya. Do you only act in the work of specific writers?
● Works with weak stylistic styles have been decided from the beginning. Ah, that's a joke. [Laughs]
○The works you direct always make people feel a strong desire for communication, what do you think?
● That's right. No matter what works I direct, I seem to have this tendency at the end. But it makes sense to think about it. We always encounter barriers to communication, which is why we have such a strong desire to communicate.
○ In your work "Macbeth of the River", Shakespeare's original work does not mention the words related to the altar at all, and I have never seen Macbeth performing in the altar in the past. The characters are all dressed as Japanese samurai, but the names of the characters in the play are the same as in the original, and they call each other Macbeth and Duncan. Where do you think, as a director, is the line that this technique can tolerate?
If the playwright is still alive, I will of course discuss it with the other party and get the writer's consent. Some people do find "Macbeth of The River" staged in the altar very distorted. However, when performing classical drama, it is not possible to consult with the author. The "Macbeth" we feel now is the "Macbeth" in my heart. To what extent it can be allowed, I don't think there should be a universally common standard. If the framework created by the director is convincing to the work and to the audience, I think it is feasible. No one can judge whether it is convincing or not, but I have always been convinced that there are a thousand kinds of eyes in me that gather the minds of many people, so I can overcome this fear. The thought of a thousand eyes on me, which gathered the minds of many people, always made me shiver with fear and reflect alone late at night. Explained in this way, I wonder if some leniency can be obtained?
○ Why did you come up with the inspiration for the altar, please explain the intention of this design.
● When we stage a translation drama, we encounter several problems. One is the problem of rhetoric. Rhetoric in foreign languages is established in a different way than in Japanese, can this theatrical language be smoothly conveyed to the audience? This is the first problem we have to face. It is difficult to understand the content without understanding Greek mythology or the Bible. Their rhetoric is always facing the sky. Try to read any of Shakespeare's works and you should understand them right away. In the time of stage flow in the stage, in order to ensure that this rhetoric is established, I will make up for the visual effects in the seconds when the actor's voice disappears to divert the audience's attention, which is one way for me to communicate with the audience. However, it is carried out in a rather subtle and subtle way.
Another problem is that it only imitates the emptiness of foreigners in appearance. It contains everything that the eye can see, such as movements and makeup. Every time I see a Japanese actor wearing blonde hair or tights, I always feel embarrassed. Seeing this outfit makes me easily dramatic, so I have to think about a solution to these problems. For example, the solution I propose in Macbeth is the altar.
Once, I opened the door of the altar of my hometown to incense. I found myself clapping my hands together as I thought back to my dead father and brother and talked to them. At that time, I thought to myself, if the macbeth play is a look or fantasy in a dialogue with our ancestors or the dead, then this is my story. The warriors who kill repeatedly are the figures of our ancestors, and they may also be ourselves. To put it more clearly, the figure of the soldiers of the United Red Army awakened in my heart. I'm not going to analyze the play here, but based on this beginning, I have an image of the altar in my mind. Then I started thinking about how the various scenes would be done using altars. In the Bonan Forest in my play, there are cherry blossoms moving at the same time. If you try to imagine the door of the altar open, there is a whole forest of cherry blossoms in full bloom, which is as beautiful as a dream. [Laughs]
○ Did you know that some people say that your play is composed of very large and very small, there is no so-called middle, either exaggeration or excess.
● I know. I also think it is true. I hate repressed stages that remind me of cultural people or well-educated people. I think that for people in life, the purpose of drama is to help them forget the present. Ever since I told myself that I was an acting person, I wanted my stage to be a magnetic field that told people's unspeakable dreams. At this time, the so-called actor is just a flesh that intertwines people's memories. But that's also myself. How others want to act, I am not qualified to say, and there is no reason to comment.
○ You just said that an actor is a flesh that intertwines people's memories, so do you particularly want to work with any actor?
● People often ask this question, and I will take this opportunity to tell you. Only a stupid director would answer that question. Think about it, if the actor didn't hear his name, what would he think? Conversely, if you ask an actor which director he wants to work with, I'll be hurt if I don't hear my name. Of course, it also depends on the actor. So I don't answer that question.
○When you go on stage to rehearse, you will often run around in the audience. The average director usually sits in the middle of the audience and quietly directs the play.
I haven't been running as hard lately as I used to, but I'm making sure the scheduling is perfect from any position in the audience. If you sit in the next position and watch the play, but you can't see the faces of the actors, or even see only the black curtains on both sides of the stage or the actors and crew waiting to appear, it is too rude to the audience.
Speaking of which, your stage is always surrounded by something, which is a glyph with the opening part facing the audience. Even "The Tale of Konmatsu's Heart" is also surrounded by buildings. Why? The stage of Romeo and Juliet is also a round tower like an ancient Roman arena.
● I don't like the dark screens on both sides of the stage. The black screen is convenient, but it also gives people a very casual feeling. However, more important than this reason, I wanted to be able to grasp the overall worldview on stage and close it off, which is why I chose this stage set. I want to create a world of theater where everything is swallowed up by the stage. From the mud on the road to the sky, everything is packed. But I also know that it is actually unlikely, and there will inevitably be some omissions. How to grasp this whole worldview, to master all people, this desire in my heart is getting stronger and stronger, and in the end all that remains is a situation that is getting more and more difficult to grasp. I didn't have much time left, and I was anxious. The next play with Kunio Shimizu is called "The Last Act". [Laughs]
I don't know when, there was a drama review in the "Asahi Monthly" that the world of Asahi Wawa was somehow always full of pessimism, and it was true. Old age can make people cowardly, and I have to face this seriously. Although it is not as much as Written in Masashi Miura's "The Water Vein of Sorrow", I feel as if I have suffered from depression in recent years. However, now it seems that I am about to get out of this situation, and I even feel as if I have died once again. When I tour Medea on a clear summer day in Europe, I shudder whether in Athens, Rimini, Rome, or Toulon. No matter how enthusiastically the audience applauded, it was so far away for me. I was scared.
Returning to the question of stage props, why this enveloping shape is made, I can't seem to explain very clearly. I can only say that I don't like the feeling of not being surrounded. Can anyone analyze it for me? Some friends say, this is called old age autism.
○ Someone said that you have three kinds of artifacts, masses, music, and flowers, what do you think?
●It seems right to say that. I don't use the word mass, but I do often have a large number of people in my plays. Using "mass" to describe it would feel like it was just a group, so I don't use those two words. And if you use the word mass for actors, they will feel that they are only part of it, and show acting skills that are close to self-abandonment. So I would never use those two words for actors. For me, the so-called protagonist is just a person who happens to be in the spotlight of a large crowd and has more lines.
○ So doesn't this contradict your use of celebrities?
To bring ordinary people from everyday time into dramatic time, a shortcut must be prepared for them. I often refer to the so-called "opening three minutes to decide the winner" because I know how difficult it is to bring people from the daily time to theatrical time, because life is so heavy. There are a lot of performers who can't immerse themselves in the drama no matter how long they watch it, and you may think that I'm talking about a technical problem, but it's actually a cognitive problem. That's why stars are used. The star is the image created by the greatest common denominator of human desires. In this way, the audience can organize their thoughts and desires before opening. In order for the audience to quickly enter theatrical time, there is no more favorable condition than this.
Of course, I also work with unknown young actors. For the average person, these actors are an undifferentiated desire that has not yet been realized. When rehearsing a play, my rehearsal techniques are naturally different in the face of different actors.
As for music, I like it, it's a part of life, and when reading books and making directing plans, you really can't do without music, otherwise you can't do anything. But when applied to drama, I think the role of music is to quietly indicate the rhythm and direction of the drama unfolding. There have been viewers who complained that the music was too noisy, and they didn't come to a rock concert. There's no way, the world is full of noise and music.
As for the flowers, what to say. If I were to explain one by one, I would also seem to be the kind of person who writes both commentary and directs plays, and those people I secretly call them holiday directors. Just think of a meaning for me, I didn't go to the University of Tokyo.
○How did you learn to be a director?
● I never learned. But I like movies, and movies should be my teacher. Movies are really fun, and now I often watch movies, but I rarely watch them. I'm really not used to other people's plays. [Laughs]
○ There is a manga called "Glass Mask", written by Suzue Minouchi. Have you seen it? The manga is based on the world of drama and is highly acclaimed among theater people.
●I have seen it. A magazine once invited me to talk to Ms. Minouchi, but after reading the manga, I thought it was the story of "Ashin", so I refused. A poor girl overcomes adversity and grows up, and this kind of story structure is basically "Ashin". What meaning does such a story have to give it? I was surprised to hear that someone else wrote a long review about this story. There are people in this world who like to add meaning to anything, don't those people have to live a life? It just makes me laugh.
○When I talk to you, I always feel that you have a hatred for the people who write things, do you have such thoughts yourself?
●Is it? Not so. If we were directors, no one would have written a script. I feel like my job is a second-level acting. I just hate critics who never doubt themselves. I won't say any more.
○ How many years have you been directing?
●20 years.
○ Is it different from the beginning?
● I feel that I am gradually losing my talents. In addition, I found that in the rehearsal hall, even if the body does not move, I can move the position of the eyes freely. For example, when I rehearse, I always sit in a fixed place to direct the play, but even if my body does not move, I gradually know what the stage looks like in the eyes of the audience sitting in the front row of the audience, and what it looks like to sit at the back of the second floor overlooking. I began to use my body to grasp the sense of space. But by this time, the eyesight had also deteriorated. That is, when I feel like I've gained something, I'm also losing something. Recognizing such a self is actually quite uncomfortable.
○How are you feeling right now?
●Now? Are you talking to you right now? I feel like I'm talking too much. [Laughs]
○ You just said that you feel as if you have died once, can you talk about this more carefully? It sounds like the undead of the Romantics.
● I have said a lot today.
○ You just feel like you're dead? Or do you really believe that you are dead and that you are now your reborn self? What's the connection?
● I don't understand, I said too much today.
(December 1, 1987)
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