The famous Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe died on March 3, local time, at the age of 88. We publish a conversation with Kenzaburo Oe when Tie Ning, a famous writer and chairman of the China Writers Association, went to Japan to attend the 2nd Japan-China-Korea East Asian Literature Forum to commemorate this Japanese writer. The following is reproduced from Wen Wei Po on September 8, 2016.
Ferrocoagulation
Chairman of the China Writers Association and a famous writer
With an article "Oh, Xiangxue" famous in the literary circle, and then successively created a series of works such as "Red Shirt Without Buttons", "Big Bath Girl" and "How Far Is It Forever", the words of Tie Ning, a famous contemporary writer and chairman of the China Writers Association, always let people see the strong and sincere yearning and pursuit of ordinary people for life, and the price paid for this pursuit regardless of everything.
Many of her works have been adapted into film and television dramas. The film of the same name adapted from his work "Oh, Fragrant Snow" won the highest prize for youth film at the 41st Berlin International Film Festival. The film "The Girl in Red", adapted from his work "Red Shirt Without Buttons", won the 1985 Chinese Film "Golden Rooster Award" and "Hundred Flowers Award" Outstanding Feature Film Award.
Kenzaburo Oe
Nobel Prize winner in literature and famous Japanese writer
With the power of poetry, the world of fantasy is constructed, but the troubles and melancholy of contemporary people are portrayed——— which is the famous Japanese writer and Nobel Prize winner Kenzaburo Oe. His representative works include: "Feeding", "Personal Experience", "Football in the First Year of Wanyan", "Flood and My Soul" and so on.
In his later work, "soul salvation" became the subject of many works. After winning the Nobel Prize in Literature, Kenzaburo Oe, refused to accept the Order of Culture awarded by the Emperor of Japan himself, considered the Nanjing Massacre one of the three major humanitarian disasters of mankind in the 20th century, and urged Japan to get rid of its "ambiguous" attitude, bravely admit its historical sins, and return to Asia.
When Tie Ning, a famous writer and chairman of the China Writers Association, went to Japan to participate in the Second Japan-China-Korea East Asian Literature Forum, he was invited by Nobel Prize winner and Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe and his wife to visit his home. The two writers talked heartily for nearly 6 hours, sharing not only the inspiration in each other's novel creation, but also many topics such as time, life and death, and women in literature.
Kenzaburo Oe admitted in the conversation that he used to think that Spanish literature was the best, but he later noticed that Chinese writers such as Tie Ning and Mo Yan who wrote in Chinese had attracted attention overseas. "There is no doubt that in the next 30 years, Chinese literature will occupy a central place in world literature." That's how he judged. During the dialogue, Tie Ning prayed for the arrival of the "voice" that truly belongs to the novel, "This must be the wish of all serious novelists." This requires focus, acumen, diligence, and compassion for humanity, and many failures. I wish I could write really good novels. ”
This dialogue between Chinese and Japanese writers about literature and life was included in Tie Ning's newly published collection "Eyes Full of Tears as Ears". (Xu Yang)
"How far away is forever" is a helpless question, but at the same time there is hope
Kenzaburo Oe: Back when I was a child, probably fifteen or sixteen, maybe 17, the biggest philosophical question I was thinking about was how far away forever.
Tie Ning: Really? This surprised me. You thought about this when you were a teenager, and I thought about this at the end of the 20th century, in 1999.
Oe: Time is always feared. Another is the infinity in space, the infinity of the universe. In addition to the eternity in time, there is also eternity in distance, eternity in physicality, and the universe that is infinitely far-reaching. This question is shocking when you think about it.
Tie Ning: When you talk about the question of eternity in time, the notebook I carry with me——— I like to take notes when I read, I have many such books——— there is an excerpt on it, which is the text on page 176 of the Chinese translation of "Beautiful Annabelle Li Hanche Shuddering and Early Death": "At this time, I will feel that I am doing this action forever in the head of Fuzhengguang (light, Dajiang's child, with a disability), and in the moment of doing so, eternal time is generated..." When I read this, I also felt shocked , so I wrote down this paragraph.
Because, this is also a very challenging problem, confusing, and a sense of helplessness, but at the same time there is hope, this is my "How Far Is Forever"... Because I think time is powerful, and people are small. But those two lines of yours I have always remembered, and they are also related to time and eternity: "I cannot live again, but we can live again." "Unable to" and "Able" ... I think this "can" is a positive attitude. Therefore, reading Mr. Oe's works, I think they are works that contain hope, although sometimes they are also "chilling".
Oe: I'm glad you can interpret it that way. I met Itami XIII when I was in high school, a beautiful man who later became a film director. I met his sister, my current wife, through Itami XIII, and have been on the creative path ever since. When my wife and I got married, we gave birth to Hikari, a disabled child who needed to cover his quilt and tuck blankets every day, and from this my literature was born. Without the introduction of Itami XIII, he would not have known his sister. After marrying his sister, I embarked on the path of writing as a writer. After embarking on the creative path, without this child——— this is an opportunity, I would not have the literature I have now. My literature came from here.
Hikari lived in the next room, and every day I wrapped him in blankets. It's been a moment every day for more than 40 years. The child will get up at 11 o'clock to go to the bathroom and then go to bed. That's when I helped him get the blanket in order and tuck it over his shoulders. This moment is forever for me. There is eternity in this moment. I am very happy that this moment was discovered by you.
Otes: Nobel Prize winner Toni Morrison told me that when she was creating, she sometimes had a voice ringing in her ears at night, and if she followed that voice, she would often write successful works. Morrison asked if I had had this experience too, and I told her that I did the same. Mr. Tie Ning, if that voice rings in your ears one night, it means that you are about to write excellent works.
Tie Ning: Praying for the arrival of the "voice" that truly belongs to the novel must be the wish of all serious novelists. This requires focus, acumen, diligence, and compassion for humanity, and many failures. I wish I could write really good novels.
The suffering in the work makes the reader feel "chilling and trembling", but it also contains great vitality
Dajiang: In today's Chinese cities, are there more women who are bolder in expressing their opinions on life?
Tie Ning: Your question reminds me of the singer talent show I saw not long ago on a TV station in southern China. A female contestant in her 60s from a small town in the northeast generously sang on the stage, her voice conditions were very good, and her singing of national singing won applause. When the host asked her if her family would agree to her coming out and singing, she said that her wife and children disagreed, thinking that she should stay home at her age to take care of her family. Now she has left her family to travel from the northeast to the south alone, renting a small room to live in, learning from her teacher, which her family finds unacceptable. The audience also formed two factions at this time, supporting her and opposing her.
Oe: That's so interesting. How does this woman tell her reason?
Tie Ning: She said that I have not taken care of my family, I have taken care of my husband, children, and grandchildren for more than 30 years, sacrificing my hobbies. Now that my wife is healthy, my children are stable, and my grandson is 12 years old, I think I can spend some time on my hobbies. My biggest hobby in life is singing, and I dream of being on stage one day. Mr. and Mrs. Oe, if you were there, would you support her or oppose her?
Oe: I will support her, I don't think she needs guilt.
Tie Ning: Yes, later she told the host that the only person in the family who supported her was her 12-year-old grandson. It was his grandmother who brought him up, he understood his grandmother, and felt that she had the right to pursue her dreams. Although it was just a talent show for ordinary people, I remembered this woman.
Oe: The people who opposed her were because she broke the "norm", right?
Tie Ning: Some "conventions" suppress creativity, don't they?
Tie Ning: Every time I see Mr. Oe and every time I read Mr. Oe's works, I feel a sense of strength. For example, you have talked about despair many times. Only those who truly feel despair can have hope. I read the novel "The Beautiful Annabelle Lihanche Shuddered and Died Early", and after reading it, I thought that this is poetry, and only poets can write such a novel. Günter Grass of Germany once said, and I especially agree with his saying that good fiction is born from poetry. Therefore, I think that the novel "Beautiful Annabelle Li Hanche Shuddered and Died Early" should have a poem first, and was written after being touched by the poem.
Oe: Yes, exactly as you said.
Tie Ning: For all the suffering in the work, it is not the protagonist who feels "chilling", but the reader, and of course, the author. This is a mysterious force. Reading this novel is difficult and not very fluent. However, I feel that what finally gave me precious strength was that in the second third of the novel, Sakura came to the homeland of Furuyito, and at this time, the image of Meisuke's mother actually overlapped with Sakura, and her suffering, her humiliation, reflected great vitality. This is the source of life, and I am talking about the source of life. In my reading experience, we have been told that Japanese women are particularly docile——— gentle and submissive. But I did see that in Mr. Oe's novels, or in Mr. Oe's mind, Japanese women are strong, resilient, determined, like cherry blossoms, suddenly opening up, saying death is death, from which the vigor of life is reflected. The cherry blossoms are not weak, they bloom brightly, fall brightly, and open again next year. So I think that in your soul, Mr. Oe, there is great kindness to women and respect from the soul.
Oe: Indeed, as you pointed out, in the new novel I'm working on right now, the heroine is the novelist's sister, which is a novelist based on me, narrating in the voice of this sister, hating all men, criticizing them. This is likely to be my last novel, which can be said to be a women's novel. As you pointed out, that kind of strong female figure is the biggest theme of my novel. That's how I really developed this style little by little. This last novel, indeed a women's novel, is very strong.
Everyone has flaws, and tolerance and closeness between people keep us from despairing
Oe: Finishing this work is my biggest wish at the moment, and it's also my last job. I don't think I will be able to do any more work in the future, but I have already agreed to the upcoming Oe's work seminar in Tokyo, so I will definitely prepare and participate in the meeting.
The meals made by my wife were very tasty. You've written about cooking, do you really know how to cook?
Tie Ning: I will make beef stew with carrots, but unfortunately I can't bring that little casserole from China to you... Why does Mrs. Oe make me feel so respected? Because I think she is not only an extraordinary wife and mother, but also a very talented artist.
Oe: She paints and is an artist.
Tie Ning: But she is not like some women, maybe some women are too egoistic, so they don't want a family. I think she gave up something and took care of this home, Mr. Oe and Hikaru, so well, she was very great.
Dae: I very much agree with your statement.
Tie Ning: I think a woman proves to society that she doesn't necessarily want a family.
Oe: You're a good example in yourself... You portray 3 girls in "The Big Bath Girl", and in difficult times, they have a dream to make a banquet. The materials were not easy to find, but after a lot of hard work, I finally found all the ingredients. These 3 girls, one is a bad girl type, and the other is an editor who works hard and studies like Mr. Tie Ning, and the three people walk on different paths in life. In the end, this bad girl wants to fulfill her dream of youth, I can't remember exactly, I remember them cooking a table. This place is particularly powerful and uncomfortable to see. These three girls, including the bad girls, are actually looking for hope in despair. But, indeed, the girl died, and the other went on to live. Seeing the 3 girls as the same image, she was very courageous, took revenge on the female editor who bullied her, and finally left the female editor to live well, and in front of her is hope. I myself am a desperate person, despite despair, still looking for hope, and in this I am similar to you. "The Great Bath Girl" is looking for hope in despair, and I am also looking for hope in despair.
Tie Ning: I was very touched by what you specifically said to me when you went to Beijing in 2009. You published your novella "The Man Who Sex" in 1963, I was born in 1957, and 6 years after I was born, your novel was published, the novel called "The Man Who Sex". I've noticed that "The Sex Man" is not the most mentioned work in all your research collections, but I value it. You wrote bad girls, and there are bad teenagers in there.
Oe: I wrote it. Mr. Tie Ning writes short stories, but I think Mr. Tie Ning should be the one who is better at writing long stories. China is a very large country, with a wide area, all walks of life, both urban and rural. You can portray people from all regions, all walks of life, you can portray intellectuals, bad girls and other female images very perfectly, which is very conducive to the writing of long novels. In addition, I also think of famous women in Chinese history, such as Mr. Xie Bingxin and Mr. Xu Guangping, Mr. Lu Xun's wife, who are very good women and have left excellent articles. I wondered what these women looked like when they were about 30 years old. What did you do when you were in your 50s? Now look at it and you will understand.
Tie Ning: Actually, Mr. Oe won the prize. It's not that I'm being polite, because there have been a lot of women writers in China in the last 30 years, and I don't think I'm the best, but I've been trying to write. It may also be that there are not many Chinese female writers whose works have been translated into Japanese. We often hear praise for a female writer and say that she is good at writing like this as a woman, but Mr. Oe you are not like that. The reason why I dare not bear it is precisely because Mr. Oe's evaluation is too heavy, which is different from the evaluation of some critics.
Dae: The title I used just now was Mr. Tie Ning, but now I am called Mr. ... Sir's short stories are certainly very good, but I still think that Mr. is more suitable for writing long stories.
Tie Ning: I want to continue the topic I just interrupted, that is, what is a normal person and what is a sick person. In fact, in a sense, we all have diseases. The reason why we are called normal people is simply that we hide deeply. And children like Hikaru may be more calm. He is undefensive and presents himself to the world, and I find it hard to say that this is abnormal. And many of our so-called normal people will secretly correct their pathology. This is indeed what literature should face.
Dae: I very much agree with you. In fact, this is also a question that I always think about. People now say they are normal. Whether normal people can care about sick people, really understand them, and get closer to each other little by little to confirm whether the other party is really sick and whether they are really normal. This is tolerance. Can people be tolerant? When you wake up in the morning, you have to start the day with Hikari and start writing again. It is too desperate not to find new hope in despair. This is the responsibility of literature.
Tie Ning: Actually, in the "Oral Autobiography of Kenzaburo Oe" before "The Beautiful Annabelle Lihanche Shuddered and Died Early", Mr. Oe you gave an example of a woman who was going to give birth to a child, and you blessed her with a new person, someone newer than anyone else, and she would use a completely new language, not Russian, not Japanese, nor French, English, but a completely new language. I think it's very impressive that Mr. Oe still has such passion at such an age. In the following "Beautiful Annabelle Lihanche Shuddering Early Death", that mother made me feel that life and life are endless, and I feel this powerful, flood-like overwhelming force. I think this is all of Mr. Oe's hopes. But most of this hope is pinned on women, because in China, women are also a metaphor for the earth, a symbol of resilience.
Oe: That's true. This time in the new novel, I wrote it like this, hoping not for men, but for women.
Editor: Deng Jiejie
Second instance: Liu Ya
Third instance: Chen Tao, Wang Yang