冨谷至 (Chapter Jing-e)
Mr. Tsutomu is a renowned scholar in the field of Chinese history in Japan, specializing in the fields of legal history and jianmu science, and is currently an honorary professor at Kyoto University, a professor at the Faculty of Letters, Ryukoku University, and a foreign academician of The Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities. His masterpieces "Research on the Penal System of the Qin and Han Dynasties", "Mu Jianzhu's Brief Description of Ancient China- The Cultural History of Writing Materials", and "The Han Empire of Instrument Administration" were translated into China soon after their publication in Japan (the Chinese translation of "Research on the Legal History of the Han and Tang Dynasties" will also be published by the Zhonghua Bookstore), and the relevant academic views are well known to Chinese scholars. Not only that, he has twice organized the investigation of archaeological materials such as Jian Mu unearthed in Europe, successively presided over a number of international cooperation projects on the death penalty, rituals and punishments, and the history of the criminal legal system, compiled Japanese and English translations of ancient Chinese official terms, and published English treatises. On March 31, Mr. Tsutomu Tsutomu will retire from Longgu University, and Zhao Jing, a professor at the Institute of Legal And Ancient Books Collation of China University of Political Science and Law, interviewed Mr. Tsutomu in writing and asked him to talk about his inherited academic tradition and personalized academic life.
You studied at the Faculty of Literature at Kyoto University ("Kyo-U") from 1971 to 1979, and on the homepage of Ryukoku University, you claimed that you initially wanted to pursue a career in Chinese literature, but because you lacked a "sense of literature" and turned to more realistic history, why were you interested in China? The early 1970s were at the end of the New Left student movement in Japan, were you influenced by this?
Tsutomu: When I entered college, I did want to study Chinese literature, but I felt that I lacked a sense of literary sense, that is, no sense of the rhythm necessary to understand the Chinese language, especially to understand poetry, so I turned to history, which generally uses realistic or common sense judgments.
As for the interest in China, it arose in high school, but in fact the memory has been blurred. The high school I was admitted to was the kind of school with a high promotion rate, and many graduates could enter UTokyo and Kyokyo University. There were many volunteers to apply for the Faculty of Science (especially the Faculty of Medicine and the Faculty of Engineering), and I chose Chinese Literature and the Faculty of Literature of Peking University, which were not concerned by high school students at that time, probably as a result of going against the trend. The "left-wing student movement," the college struggle, had no impact because I didn't care about politics.
Were there many students studying Chinese history at Beijing University at that time? In my impression, Mr. Takada toshio once said that there were very few students who attended classes together, and no one else specialized in Dunhuang Studies when he was in graduate school.
Tsutomu Tsubasa: When I enrolled in the Department of Oriental History, there were six students at the same time, and when I entered graduate school, there were three people. The same is Chinese studies, Chinese literature is about three people, and Chinese philosophy is one person. The situation in literature and philosophy is probably the same every year, while the history major is generally six to ten people, and it has not changed now. But today, almost no one has gone from undergraduate studies to graduate school at Peking University, because there are very few university faculty positions related to Chinese history, and the situation is very serious.
At that time, most of the second generation of Chinese scholars at Beijing University had retired, and the third generation of middle-aged and middle-aged scholars gathered. Which courses have you listened to and what joint research courses have you attended at the Institute of Human Sciences (hereinafter referred to as "Humanities Research")? Who has influenced you the most?
Tsutomu Tsutomu: When I entered school, Mr. Kojiro Yoshikawa, Ichisei Miyazaki, Shizo Tamura, Mori Shikazo, Akira Fujieda, and Takeo Hiraoka were all retired and did not have a research association, so there was no opportunity for direct contact. Mr. Qianji Shimada, Yoshio Kawakatsu, and Masaaki Chu were my mentoring professors in my graduate school years. But the guidance professor is only an identity in the institutional sense, unlike China, which actually does not have the relationship of "Mr. So-and-so's disciple". After becoming an assistant to the Humanities Research Institute, I participated in a joint research class at the Institute, which was chaired by Yoshio Kawakatsu, Koji Fukunaga, and Naofu Hayashi. Mr. Fukunaga's research class is related to Buddhism and Taoism, and I can read the "Guanghong Ming Collection", but I don't understand it at all, so I have a boredom with Buddhism and Taoism. Mr. Lin chaired the Joint Research Society on Documentary Archaeology, from which my research on Jian Mu began.
The person who had the deepest influence on me was Mr. Umehara Yu, who gave me a lot of lessons, such as mental preparation as a researcher, research methods, evaluation of seniors in the academic community, etc. "Every day, I should complete fixed learning tasks at a fixed time." It is not the attitude of scholars to not learn when you are tired today", "Don't read books for the sake of looking up information." The book should be read from beginning to end", "If you travel back to that era, as a person of that era, you can be familiar with the system and economy, and live well, and you must have this self-confidence." Mr. Umehara is too cunning, and cannot tolerate the enemy, always being strictly critical, so it is fearful. But until his death, he was close to me and was my beloved teacher.
In August 2010, Staffan Rosen gave a lecture on the Humanities. On the left is Tsutomu Tsubaki, and on the lower right is Umehara Yu.
In addition to the courses or research courses in Chinese Studies, have you taken courses such as Western history? Mr. Tonami mentioned that he and Mr. Yoshio Kawakatsu joined the "Comparative Studies of Feudal States" joint research class chaired by Mr. Yuji Kawakatsu in 1966, devoted to the comparison of the history and cultures of the East and the West (see 礪波護: "Kyoro", Chuo Kodan Shinsha, 2001, pp. 299-300). Don't know if you've been affected?
Keiya Zhi: Western history and cultural comparison have no influence on me.
In addition to courses in history and China studies, have you also audited courses in other social sciences? For example, the "Chinese History Research Society", founded in 1978, was inspired by Professor Tetsu Nakamura of the Faculty of Economics of Beijing University (see Shinichiro Watanabe and Xu Chong's translation of "Royal Power and The Order of the World in Ancient China: Self-Order", Shanghai People's Publishing House, 2021, pp. 6-7).
Keiya: In Japan, there are three different types of researchers of Chinese history. The first is those who are devoted to historical theory and historical introduction, and take China as the object of study. Study the "universal rules of world history", "historical materialism", and "hegel, Marx, and Weber's philosophy of history" and apply them to the history of East Asia, thus creating connections with sociology and economics. Mr. Michio Tanigawa falls into this category, as does Mr. Shinichiro Watanabe. The second is that people who devote themselves to the study of Chinese history because they like Chinese classics (sinology). Therefore, Chinese history is self-explanatory, and it is also necessary to study Chinese literature and Chinese philosophy at the same time, and history, literature and philosophy are not separated. Mr. Koji Fukunaga and Mr. Umehara Yu belong to this category, and the study style of the Oriental Department of Humanities Research is mainly this. The third is the scholars who like to study historical facts and write articles, such as Akira Fujieda and Mr. Ōtaka. Because I like to study, I am not limited to Chinese history, but also in Japanese history and Korean history. As for myself, as mentioned earlier, I had already felt the charm of Chinese literature at the beginning of my enrollment, and reluctantly, I could belong to the second category, at least not in the first category, so I was not very interested in socio-economic history.
Although self-positioning is the second category, from the perspective of many masterpieces, you are very good at distilling or applying two sets of concepts that are contrasting, such as the punishment of deprivation of life and the punishment of disposing of corpses, the norm of adjudication and the norm of behavior, absolute crime and relative crime, etc., which seem to be the result of social science influence.
Tsutomu Tsubasa: Speaking of the point. By comparing and illustrating the two sets of concepts, a clear and unambiguous understanding can be obtained. But whether this can explain everything, I am afraid there is still room for review. However, if I say that I am influenced by the social sciences, I do not have such awareness.
Mr. Tanigawa once divided the study of medieval history in Japan in the fifty years after the war into two periods, the first half of which was an era of controversy around the staging of Chinese history, and the second half of which was an era of individual research without controversy, and expressed dissatisfaction with the subdivision of research that "lost its goal" after the 1980s (see "Basic Issues in the Historiography of the Wei and Jin Dynasties, Sui and Tang Dynasties", edited by Michio Tanigawa, 2010, pp. 2-3, 23). Do you think the study of legal history can respond to this view?
Tsutomu Taniya: Indeed, as Mr. Tanigawa said, after the 1980s, the era of historical controversy has passed. One of the reasons for this is that from the 1950s to the 1960s, the historians were liberated from the pre-war and war-war prohibition of Marxism, whether it is Japanese history or Chinese history, the study based on materialism is very popular, but there are also views against this theory, and the two sides have launched many debates, such as the mode of production in Asia Minor, the patriarchal system, the community and other historical views and the division of the times. As I said before, in the study of Chinese history, this is the situation of "people who are devoted to historical theory and historical theory, and who take China as the object of study." Those who belong to the second category mentioned above, who are interested in the study of Chinese history and who are interested in the study of Chinese history, are not enthusiastic about theoretical historiography and have not been affected in any way.
In the second half of the 1970s, China published the results of archaeological excavations, which greatly increased the opportunity to contact with newly published written materials. In ancient history, there are simple materials, stone carving historical materials, etc., and researchers' interest focuses on new materials and their interpretations, and the research objects are becoming more and more subdivided. While the charm of theoretical historiography has diminished, the newly published written materials also prompt many facts, which are different from the historical phenomena interpreted by theoretical historiography. It may be said that the study of theoretical historiography has moved from popularity to loneliness.
Mr. Watanabe and others gathered their peers to conduct joint research in the name of the "Chinese History Research Society", which was a special case among the student population at that time, or was it more common? Have you ever participated in a similar organization? You have classified yourself and Mr. Akira Tsuyoshi as the third generation of scholars in the field of Japanese succinctology (see Keiya to Akira Kawakatsu(Kawakatsu Yoshio) (see Akira Akira Tsuneyama, Researcher of the Japanese Toyo Bunko Library: Between Jane, Paleography, Legal History, and The History of the Qin and Han Dynasties, 2010, p. 443), and Mr. Tsukiyama mentioned that he met you for the first time in Mr. Kawakatsu Yoshio's General Canon class (see "Akira Akira Ryo, a researcher at the Toyo Bunko Library of Japan: Between Jianmu Studies, Paleography, Legal History, and the History of the Qin and Han Dynasties"), What is the exchange and cooperation between the third generation of JianMu researchers?
There is nothing special about groups of aspirants such as the "Society for the Study of Chinese History", and there are many other research societies, and this is still the case. The "Chinese Medieval History Research Society" chaired by Kiyoshi Utsunomiya, Michio Tanigawa, and Yoshio Kawakatsu is also in this category, and I have participated in it. But I'm not an enthusiastic member myself. The kind of research that doesn't "read" historical materials, but publishes personal research and discusses them, is not attractive to me.
In the Humanities Research Institute, all the research courses I promoted as the class leader adopted the form of "reading" historical materials, but I did not organize research associations outside the Humanities Research Institute. In the Humanities Research Institute, it was my duty to organize joint research classes, so I presided over the research class of Jian Mu Xue; and the research class had to produce results, so I had to publish the "Han Jian Yu Hui" and so on.
Mr. Katsukatsu's Study of the General Dictionary is a graduate course.
Hanjian Language Collection Seminar. The time was December 3, 2010, in the conference room of the Kita-Shirakawa Hall of the Kyoda Humanities Research Institute. In the lower left of the photo is the squad leader Tsutomu Tsutomu, and in the lower right is the reporter Tatsuro Sato.
During your studies, which European and American Chinese studies researchers studied at Beijing University? Do you have any communication with them? As we all know, Mr. Michael Loewe studied Hanjian under the guidance of Mr. Mori Lusan in 1960-1961; Mr. Tonami mentioned several European and American students studying in humanities, such as Arthur Wright in the 1950s, Howard Wechsler in the late 1960s, and Richard William Louis Guisso in the late 1960s (see Tonbogo: "JingluoXue Style"). , p. 360). You also mention the famous translator Burton Watson in The Collection and Introduction to the Ancient Chinese Bureaucracy and English Sayings (Showa Hall, 2011).
Tsutomu Tsutomu: Well, I was just a student at the time. In the graduate school years, there were no scholars from Europe and the United States. When I was an undergraduate, Mr. Waltzson came to class as a lecturer in Chinese literature at Beijing University, and I listened to it for two consecutive years, and I still remember that I submitted a report at that time, "Ghosts in the Left Biography.".
What is the theme of your university and master's thesis? At present, the first three papers published in the western Han Dynasty, "Politics and Spring and Autumn Studies in the Second Half of the Western Han Dynasty" (1978), "The National Education of Confucianism" and "The Officialization of Confucianism" (1979), and "The Eve of the White Tiger View Conference- The Acceptance and Unfolding of the Later Han Dynasty" (1980), are all far from the history of the legal system and the study of Jian Mu, until the publication of "The Labor Punishment of the Qin and Han Dynasties" in 1983, which opened up a new direction. You and Mr. Dating Live in Mimian, are you familiar with this researcher of the legal system of the Qin and Han Dynasties before studying Chinese history?
Tsutomu: His undergraduate thesis was "The NationalIzation of Confucianism", entitled "The National Indoctrination of Confucianism" and "The Officialization of Confucianism", which was published in Studies in Oriental History. His master's thesis was "Politics and Spring and Autumn Studies in the Second Half of the Western Han Dynasty", which was also published in "Studies in Oriental History". Just when I was hesitant about whether to continue to study the history of ideas along the existing trajectory, I came into contact with the "Bamboo Jane of the Tomb of the Sleeping Tiger Di Qin", and became deeply interested, so I turned to the history of the legal system and the study of Jian Mu, and the object of study changed greatly.
Mr. Ōtori is not only my neighbor, but also a senior of my high school (Osaka Prefectural Kitano High School). The mother had close contact with Mrs. Ting. When I was in high school, I knew Mr. Ting, but I didn't know that he was a legal historian. Now that I think about it, it is really incredible, and if I think about it carefully, I can indeed say that like Mr. Dating, I am engaged in the study of the history of the legal system and the study of JianMu.
When were you hired as a teaching assistant at the Faculty of Humanities at Kyokyo University in 1979, when did you become a lecturer at the Faculty of Liberal Arts at Osaka University (hereinafter referred to as "Han university") ? What are the main tasks during the teaching assistantship period?
From 1979 to 1985, he was an assistant professor at the Faculty of Humanities, and since 1985 he has been in the Faculty of Liberal Arts, Osaka University. The teaching assistant of the Humanities Research Institute is blessed with a unique treatment, and the task that needs to be completed is to concentrate on participating in the research class, so as to improve their research ability.
I attended the Taoist research class of Mr. Fukunaga Hikari, Mr. Yoshio Kawakatsu's research class on the Chinese medieval aristocracy, and Mr. Hayashi's Chinese archaeology research class. In addition, I also listen to Mr. Umehara Yu's interpretation of "Rong Zhai Essay" every week. Contact with the "Sleeping Tiger Di Qin Tomb Bamboo Jane" and turn to the study of legal history are naturally related to the study of excavated cultural relics in Mr. Lin's research class.
Which Chinese scholars have you come into contact with in the 1970s? In the preface to the Chinese translation of "Research on the Legal History of the Qin and Han Dynasties" (Shanghai People's Publishing House, 1991), Mr. Daying mentioned that if the relations between China and Japan had been normalized when he was young, then he must study under Mr. Chen Zhi. Did you choose to study at Northwestern University in 1981 because of Mr. Chen (although he had died at the time)?
The 1970s coincided with the publication of excavation reports of unearthed written materials. Related to this, the Chinese scholar who has had the greatest influence on me, dating back from the 1970s, is Wang Guowei; if it is a scholar in the 1960s, it is Chen Mengjia.
I went to Northwestern University to study because Kyoto and Xi'an became sister cities, And Kyo University signed an academic exchange agreement with Northwest university, and I was sent to study as the earliest exchange student. Therefore, the goal of doing research under the guidance of Mr. Chen Zhi was not aimed. At Northwestern University, the supervising professor is Mr. Lin Jianming. At this time, Mr. Huang Liuzhu was Mr. Lin's teaching assistant and later helped me publish the Chinese translation of several books.
Things related to studying abroad at Northwestern University are mentioned in the "Afterword to the Chinese Edition" in "Mu Jianzhu's Brief Introduction to Ancient China" (Zhongxi Bookstore 2021).
Certificate of completion obtained when he studied at Northwestern University
During your study abroad, what other places have you visited besides Xi'an? Have you ever gone to Gansu and other places to investigate the ruins of Beacons?
Tsutomu Tsutomu: In the era of studying at Northwestern University, foreigners were not as free to travel as they do now. It was essential to purchase train tickets, obtain travel permits, and prepare food stamps that were still in use at the time (divided into national and provincial uses).
However, thanks to the university's Fang and Mr. Lin Jianming, I also received travel expenses to travel to Changsha (Mawangdui), Jingzhou, Shashi and Wuhan. At that time, I had not yet started a brief study, so I did not want to go to the Hexi Corridor to do research.
In the 1980s, famous Chinese masters such as Su Ru visited Japan one after another, such as Tang Changru and Han Pan. Have you spoken to them?
Mr. Tang was invited by Mr. Katsura Kawakatsu to visit The University of Beijing in the 1980s. At that time, I was Mr. Chuansheng's assistant and was cared for by Mr. Tang. As Mr. Tang's assistant and visiting Mr. Hu Dekun (a history of modern Japan-China relations), he later became the vice president of Wuhan University, and at that time our two assistants also learned Chinese and Japanese from each other.
While studying at Northwestern University, I visited Mr. Tang's house when I traveled to Wuhan. I still remember that Mr. Tang had a cat at home, which was relatively rare in China at that time.
Mr. Han Han Pan was accompanied by Mr. Toshiichi Hori to visit the Humanities Research Institute, and it was when he took the following photo. In my impression, he was a very quiet and stable gentleman. Later, when he visited Gulangyu Island in Xiamen, where Mr. Han lived, he was told that the house had once been Mr. Han's residence.
For me, who was young at that time, Mr. Tang and Mr. Han were both Mr. Big and had no intimate communication relationship, but the students of the two gentlemen, Mr. Mou Fasong and Mr. Zhou Dongping, were very close friends of mine so far. When Mr. Tang and Mr. Han came to Kyoto, I didn't know them at all, and it can indeed be said that it was an adventure.
Photo by Zhao Jing from Tonbogo dunhuang から奈ra Kyoto へ (Hozokan 2016, 306 pages). From left to right are Tonami Go, Inoue Jin, Korea Pan, Tsutomu Ketani, and Toshiichi Hori.
There is also a certain tradition of Oriental historiography at Han university, where did you teach for a few years? At that time, the researchers of the Faculty of Literature were Mr. Yoshinobu Spo (transferred to the University of Tokyo in 1986), Mr. Atsutoshi Hamjima (assistant professor in 1987), and Mr. Fushibaku Shiobi who retired from the Faculty of Liberal Arts in 1983.
Tsutomu Tsutomu: Worked at Han university for five years from 1985 to 1990, and belonged to the Faculty of Liberal Arts, teaching general studies (history) to first- and second-year students. As a result, none of the gentlemen questioned had ever worked together. There was an overlap period of about two years with Mr. Hamama, but because there was a gap in the field of expertise, there was no exchange.
However, at that time, the history department of the Faculty of Liberal Arts of Han university was a colleague with Mr. Osamu Higashino (Japanese Wooden Jane), Egawa Wen (Medieval Western History), Kanesaka Kiyonori (Geography), and was also a young teacher, who often discussed and learned a lot. Those five years of leaving Kyoto and being freed from the "curse" of Kyodai were actually five years of leisure.
Mr. Hidemasa Nagata has been a professor at Toyama University and Shiga University since 1974, and only became a professor at the Faculty of Letters at Kyo university in 1990 (of course, he has been participating in joint research classes at Kyo University). When did your life with him begin?
Tsutomu Tsubasa: I returned to the Faculty of Humanities at Kyokyo University in 1990, which also happened to be the year mr. Nagata came to Kyoda. The "Han Dynasty Stone Carving Materials Research" class he presided over was a research class of the visiting department of the Humanities Research Institute. I am an associate professor of humanities research, assisting this research class, and the result of this research class is the publication of "Han Dynasty Stone Carving Data Integration".
When I first met Mr. Nagata, I was an undergraduate at The University of Kyoto, and before he went to Toyama University, he was an assistant professor in the Faculty of Humanities. Since then, I have always had close contact with him, following him to learn the research methods related to Jian Mu, and my doctoral dissertation "Examination of the Qin and Han Penal System" was also presided over by him, and I also investigated with him the Han Dynasty Beacon Site in the Ejina River Valley.
Mr. Umehara and Mr. Nagata are classmates of kyodai Toyoshi, and the relationship between the two is very close. For me, Mr. Umehara and Mr. Nagata are mentors.
To put it mildly, the two are completely different types of gentlemen. As mentioned earlier, Mr. Umehara will unceremoniously criticize the other person regardless of his age; as for Mr. Nagata, he has never heard of him being harsh and critical of people, and he is a person who is sincere to the extreme. I have always loved my mentors, Mr. Nagata and Umehara, and I am fortunate to be able to accept their guidance.
In 2004, the Nagata Eimasa Koki Celebration Party. Former left-to-right Akira Momiyama, Mrs. Nagata, Mrs. Nagata, Toshitaka Okawa;
When did you and Mr. Nagata come to China to investigate the Han Dynasty Beacon Site? In the 1990s, Mr. Dating presided over several international cooperation projects on Jian Mu studies, in which you and many Chinese scholars participated. Did the contacts with the Chinese Scholarly Circles begin at that time?
Tsutomu: The exchanges with the Chinese Scholarly Community have benefited from Mr. Dating's efforts. In particular, in 1992, the "International Symposium on Hanjian Studies" held by Kansai University, when the researchers of Jian Mu who were active in the frontline gathered together, such as Li Junming, He Shuangquan, Xie Guihua, Peng Hao, Xing Yitian, Chu Shibin, Hu Pingsheng and others. I met many Jane scholars at that time. Soon after, fieldwork became possible, and in the summer of 1997 I went with Mr. Nagata to the Ejin River Valley to investigate. In 2002, I went again to the Juyan area and the Shule River basin to investigate.
What was your chance as a visiting fellow at the University of Cambridge in 1991? Is it related to Mr. Lu Alone? Did the close association with European sinologists originate at that time? Professor Oliver Moore, who has worked with you since then, was born in Cambridge.
The opportunity to become a Cambridge researcher was in the second year of returning to Beijing University, and I applied for overseas academic funds from Beijing University, and my long-cherished wish to study in Europe was realized. Mr. Lu had been to Japan for the previous two or three years, and was able to meet him through Mr. TaiTing. It was also under his care that I was accepted as a fellow at Clare Hall at Cambridge University. But I did not get guidance from my husband on the study of Jane. Because my residence was some distance from Cambridge University, I was not likely to see him. My "day lesson" is to go to the British Library and Museum in London every day to investigate the Dunhuang Jane and Stein collections.
When I went to study in the UK, I was forty years old, I had never been to Europe before, and I had seen the West, so it can be said that it was late. But studying abroad had an incalculable impact on my subsequent research career. Here's a little more.
When I studied abroad in the UK, I knew nothing about Europe. When you land at London Heathrow Airport, it can be said that it is "lonely at the end of the world". Although Mr. Lu had met him before, he had only seen him once in Japan. Soon after, when I applied to investigate the Stein collection at the British Museum, I was approached by Omorie, the head of the museum at the time. He has since served as a lecturer at leiden University and a professor at the University of Groningen, and we still maintain the same intimate relationships to this day. I was able to conduct international joint research with leiden University because of my collaboration with him.
In March 2020, Tsutomus and Omori were reunited in Groningen.
While studying in the UK, I wrote to the Swedish Museum of Ethnology in Stockholm to investigate the Sven Hedin collection. I was written back by H kan Wahlquist, the head of the museum and director of the Sven Hedin Foundation. While investigating the museum, he happened to meet Staffan Rosen, a professor at Stockholm University at the time. The joint research of the "Quicksand Unearthed Textual Data" can be said to have begun at that time. Since then, he has continued his research on the death penalty of 東アジアの, and international cooperation with Sweden has lasted for ten years. For their efforts, I was awarded the Royal Swedish Order of the North Star and elected a Foreign Fellow of the Royal Swedish Academy of Humanities, History and Archaeology.
Looking back on this process, from being completely unfamiliar to conducting international joint research, publishing the results of several collaborations, and promoting the internationalization of Oriental Studies, I must thank the fateful encounter and luck.
On July 6, 2009, Keiya was honored at the Swedish Embassy in Japan
Royal Swedish Order of the North Star
Why did Mr. Umehara start two consecutive investigation and research projects on archaeological data in Europe in 1994 (a comprehensive survey of legal documents such as Jian Mu that appeared in Central Asia in Europe, and a comprehensive study of archaeological academic materials brought by Sven Hedin)? For this purpose, he also wrote a special article "The Rise and Fall of the Kingdom of Shanshan, the False Reality of Loulan" (included in 冨谷至編 "Quicksand Unearthed Textual Data", Kyoto University Academic Publishing Society, 2001). Does this have to do with your dealings with Swedish scholars?
Keiya: After returning from studying in the UK, I came up with the idea of promoting international joint research based on existing achievements and contacts. In the past, it was rare for the predecessors of humanities research to communicate with foreign countries only at the individual level, and it was rare to receive high scientific research funds and launch organized joint research results.
Therefore, I invited my boss at the time, Mr. Umehara, Mr. Akamatsu Akihiko of Kyushu University (later Professor of Indian Philosophy at the Faculty of Literature of Kyoda University), and Mr. Akira Ryochi Toyama to participate, and applied to the Japan Academy for the Promotion of Science for a three-year overseas research fund, and after obtaining approval, I organized a study of Central Asian excavated texts in cooperation with the British Museum and the Swedish Museum of Ethnology. As you said, the research that Mr. Umehara did at that time was somewhat different from his specialty, but I also considered that historical geography was one of the professional fields and that I had studied in Europe, so I asked him to engage in research on this topic and introduce results.
He was selected as a Foreign Fellow of the Royal Swedish Academy of Humanities, History and Archaeology
When was this research room created when you hung the sign "Institutional History Research Room" at the entrance of the research room of the Kita-Shirakawa Branch of the Humanities Research Institute? When you say that Mr. Umehara was your boss, does that mean that he belongs to this laboratory?
Under the Humanities Research Institute, it was divided into three departments: the Eastern Department, the Japanese Department, and the Western Department. In 2000, the organization was reorganized into two departments: the Department of Oriental Studies and the Department of Humanities Studies. Before the reorganization, the Oriental Department had the so-called "Historical Geography Division" research office, which was successively taught by Mori Shikazo, Hibino's husband, and Mr. Umehara Yu. As an associate professor in the Department of Historical Geography, I am a subordinate of Mr. Umehara. In 2000, I was promoted to professor and took advantage of the institutional reorganization to rename the "Historical Geography Research Office" to the "Institutional History Research Office". I myself do not specialize in historical geography, so the goal is to build a research office that focuses on the history of the legal system, the official system, and other institutions.
Did Professor Emmerich Reinhard of the University of Münster study in Kyoto in 1985 know him at that time? Why did you visit the Department of Sinology at the University of Münster in 2004?
Keiya Zhi: Compared with the previous exchanges in Sweden and the Netherlands, academic exchanges with German universities are different in process, time, method and content.
Emmelrich of the University of Münster studied abroad three times in the Faculty of Humanities. The first time was in 1985, and although he was attending Mr. Hayashi's seminar at the time, I didn't know it. The second time was in 2000, and we met and became close friends. At that time, the joint research conducted with Sweden in the 1990s published the result "Quicksand Unearthed Text Data", which came to an end for the time being, and I myself went to Europe every year, familiar with European affairs, and my friends increased one after another. After Emmelich returned home, I was invited in 2004 to be a visiting professor at the Institute of East Asian Studies at the University of Münster, where I had to teach every week. In 2006, I invited Emmelich to be a visiting professor at the Institute of Humanities. On this basis, I would like to promote the second phase of international joint research.
Joint research with Sweden takes the form of convening scholars to hold seminars and publish papers, while joint research with Germany has the following directions: first, to conclude academic exchange agreements between institutions; second, not only Japan and Germany, but also universities and researchers from China and South Korea; third, to cultivate young graduate students and scholars. In China, academic exchange agreements were signed with China University of Political Science and Law and Xiamen University, thus trying to promote academic activities of tripartite cooperation between Germany, Japan and China.
Since then, in addition to the University of Münster, international academic research on Chinese character culture and Chinese concepts has been carried out in conjunction with the Institute of Asian and African Studies of the University of Hamburg (Professor Feng Kai [Kai Vogelsang]), the Institute of Foreign Chinese Studies of Nanjing University (Professor Tong Ling) and the Institute of Humanities (Professors Tomoyuki Nagata) on Chinese character culture and Chinese concepts, and the Collection of Ancient Chinese Officialdom and English Terms is one of them, and is now compiling a "collection of English languages related to the concept of ritual thought".
In September 2012, the "Public Notion of Crime and Law in East Asia: Crime and Society in East Asia" symposium was held at the University of Münster, Germany. The picture shows a group photo of the participants, and the third and fourth from the left in the front row are Keiya and Emmelich. The second from the right in the back row is interviewer Zhao Jing.
Due to the continuous emergence of Jian Mu in China, coupled with the fact that Japan and South Korea also have their own unearthed wooden Janes, Jian Mu has become an international science. According to your observation, are there any differences in the academic styles and research paradigms of Japan, China, South Korea, Europe and the United States in this field of research? What are their characteristics?
冨谷至: 簡牍 is an archaeological textual source. Therefore, it is not just what is written on the brief, but we must also analyze it from the perspective of where it was unearthed and under what conditions. Especially for the Jian Mu (documents) unearthed in the border area, we must consider the so-called "transmission" problem, that is, where to start from, where to transmit, whether to make copies during the transmission process, etc. European and American studies, which seem to be centered on the history of ideas, do not appear in this view. The tomb excavation of Jian Mu, you need to think about why the burial question, is it used in the real world, or written to the underworld (such as The Mockery)? In the latter case, it is dangerous to treat them as data for real-world use.
The wood jane in Korea and Japan is a thing of the same era as paper and wood, so it cannot be treated the same as the Han Jane. Since there is basically no information, the study of Chinese JianMu does not involve the era of paper and wood.
International academic exchanges are becoming closer and closer, and the study of Chinese and American scholars seems to be no longer limited to the classics in the history of ideas, but also shifts the focus to documents, coupled with the long classical tradition of Europe, the comparison of different writing cultures, in fact, it is gradually converging with the research path based on ancient calligraphy in Japanese academic circles. For example, the University of Hamburg has set up a cultural research center for writing, do you have any communication with them?
In the study of Jian Mu, North America can be said to be more prosperous than Europe. However, in my opinion, the study of Jian Mu in North America basically does not pay attention to the administrative documents such as Juyan Hanjian and Dunhuang Hanjian, but focuses on the classics excavated from ancient tombs.
Professor Enno Giele of heidelberg University is one of the representative researchers of Jian Mu in Europe, who has long been taught by Mr. Xing Yitian of the Institute of History and Linguistics of the "Academia Sinica". But after him, it seems that he did not cultivate a young Jian Mu researcher, right? After Mr. Lu, there was no successor to Cambridge, and Leiden no longer had a Jian Mu researcher after Mr. He Siwei. European classics (Sinology) did once glorify, and while it is a pity, we cannot argue that this tradition continues today.
As for the Manuscript Cultures in Asia, Africa and Europe at the University of Hamburg, I have been aware of the situation since its inception and still remember the lectures that took place at the Institute. The friend Professor Feng Kai was related to the establishment of the center, so by chance, the international academic cooperation between the Humanities Research Institute of Beijing University, the Institute of Foreign Chinese Studies of Nanjing University and the University of Hamburg was implemented. I also recommended Mr. Tomoyuki Nagata, who was then a teaching assistant at the Institute of Humanities, to the Research Center for Writing in Hamburg, where he was hired as a researcher.
However, the writing research conducted by the University of Hamburg is slightly different from the study of calligraphy in the field of Chinese studies. As the name suggests, the aim of the University of Hamburg's Writing Research is to explore all methods of transmitting information, including words, based on the world's writing books (or, to be precise, the medium of recording and the transmission of information). In our understanding, calligraphy and writing are in any case the use of words as the main body of information transmission, and the writing materials, writing methods, forms of writing, symbols, etc. are secondary objects, which is still different from the direction of Hamburg's research in the direction of the goal. As an excellent scholar of Sinology, Professor Feng Kai's relationship with the Research Center for Writing has gradually drifted away.
Dr. Thies Staack, who graduated from the University of Hamburg, should be a young scholar immersed in the German sinology tradition, and has cooperated with Mr. Ulrich Lau. Dr. Maxim Korolkov, who is now working at Heidelberg University, has studied at Moscow University, Peking University, and Columbia University, and has a variety of academic training. Do you have contact with them?
Tsutomu: I've heard of Star, but Ma Shuo doesn't know it. Since he was at the University of Heidelberg, it was under Professor Gianno, right? As for Mr. LaoWuli, it is all too familiar, and there have been meetings in Münster, Hamburg, and Japan, and there have been discussions on the explanation of the Han law unearthed in Zhangjiashan, which is really a sincere and honest gentleman.
As for the nature of the tomb law, the town tomb dispelling heresy that you advocate is quite representative, and Professor Zhang Zhongwei's "Continuation of the Study of the Qin and Han Laws and Decrees" published last year (Zhongxi Bookstore 2021) supports your views from the evolution of funeral customs in Chudi. On October 6, 2017, The Paper published the main content of your speech at East China Normal University ("Jian Gu Zhi: The Formation of Ancient Chinese Legal Codes such as Jian Mu and Paper"), which talked about the spring and autumn period of casting punishment should not be understood as the publication of written legislation, which was presented to the gods rather than the world. Does this have anything to do with the idea of qualitative tomb Jane?
Ji Guzhi: I think that the content of the Qin and Han tombs (law-related Jian Mu, Bing Shu, Jian Mu related to the elderly, etc.) has the effect of warding off evil spirits. For crimes in the real world, the law has the power to prevent and intimidate, and they can also intimidate evil spirits underground.
The punishment is different. Its purpose is not to intimidate, but to report to the Heavenly Emperor . The Ding is a sacrificial vessel, and the political report text (law) is contained in the Ding, along with the offerings. If the definition of "statute law" is "law written in writing", then the provisions on the penal code can also be said to be "the law of practicing all words", but the statutory law is the concept opposite to customary law and unwritten law, and has the meaning of "writing in writing and formulating laws" in general and modern law, so the criminal law cannot be said to be statutory law.
Above you only mentioned the Jane of The Book and the Jane of the Classics, but did not talk about the "Antique Jane" (i.e., the Jane purchased from the antique dealer). I have read the masterpiece ""Bone DongJian" とよばれるモノ (China Excavation Data Society, ed.: "Underground からの贈物:新 excavated data が語るいにしえの China", Oriental Bookstore, 2014), and your attitude in the text is clearly expressed to the position of such simplicity, which is different from the general understanding in the academic community. Judging from this statement on the research path of Jian Mu, your views should not change. Can you say one or two more?
Tsutomu Tsutomu: Regarding "Antique Jane", my attitude has indeed not changed. There is indeed a lot of criticism of my article published in the article "Underground からの贈り物". There are both misunderstandings and opinions based on the issue of authenticity and the ethical issue of using pirated excavations, but the humble article does not deal with whether it is genuine or not, whether the pirated goods are good or evil as information, and the things I am talking about are not problems at this level. My opinion is: "Jian Mu is not only a written material, but also a cultural relics and archaeological material. The basic attitude when dealing with cultural relics and archaeological data is to accurately grasp where and in what state the cultural relics appear. Antique Jane is completely missing the relevant information as a cultural relic. Using this kind of flawed material would be unreliable with the evidence, and I didn't want to do that, so I had no interest in antique Jane. ”
However, the "antique Jane" that was extremely rare in the past has emerged in a concentrated manner, and now there is no momentum to disappear, what is the reason for this? I don't know what everyone thinks? It's incredible.
Since 1986, Mr. Umehara has organized joint research classes on "The Legal System and Society in Modern China" and "The Legal System in Pre-Modern China" at the Institute of Humanities at Peking University, and one of the main themes mentioned in the preface to the two collections of papers published is to conduct a dialogue with two legal history researchers, Mr. Nishiida Ande Shuzo, to strengthen the communication between law and history. Do you think there is a melting between the current disciplines? You have had academic debates with Mr. Shiga, Mr. Yasushi Kawamura, Mr. Tao An, and other people from the Faculty of Law, and have also taught "History of the Oriental Legal System" at the Faculty of Law of Kyokyo University.
Tsutomu Tsuneyama: I didn't realize much about the gap between a legal background and a historiography background. If I have to say different, I think that the analysis and interpretation of language (Chinese) by legal scholars is deductive rather than inductive, so there are many peculiarities in the interpretation and interpretation of ancient texts, such as Mr. Niida and Shiga. Conversely, researchers of legal history from the Faculty of Literature tend to conduct meticulous examinations of materials and do not extend their horizons to the overall problems of the use of law and the concept of law. Is this the difference in education between the Faculty of Literature, which emphasizes linguistic analysis, and the Faculty of Law, which focuses on legal theory. "To learn without thinking is to be reckless, and to think without learning is to perish", this is what is said. Unfortunately, researchers who are good at theory and have a keen sense of language basically do not exist, right?
One of the goals of your proposal is to improve the status of Oriental Studies in Europe and the United States by proposing "The International Studies of Oriental Studies from Asian Orientalism to the World" ("Collection and Introduction to the Ancient Chinese Bureaucracy and English Terms"). Mr. Toshio Takada and Takao Moriyasu also lamented the weakness of European Orientalism and imagined the possibility of Japan nurturing European Oriental scholars (see Toshio Takada, ed., "Toyogaku (Omi)", Daishukan Bookstore, 1996, pp. 296-297). During your tenure at KK, which European and American Oriental scholars have you cultivated through joint research classes?
I have set a goal from "Oriental Studies in East Asia" to "Oriental Studies in the World," but this goal has not yet been fully achieved. I also hope that in the future, young scholars in China and Japan will have to occupy a vast wilderness in the foothills if they want to form a mountain, and if they want to achieve "the world's Oriental studies", only by first increasing the number of young scholars of oriental studies around the world will excellent researchers continue to emerge. In the preface to the Chinese Dictionary of Ancient Chinese Wooden Dictionary (Iwanami Shoten 2015), I listed European and American scholars who had participated in my research class on humanities.
You mentioned earlier that in Japan today, there are fewer and fewer chairs in Chinese history, which is similar to the situation in European sinology. So what are your thoughts on the research prospects of Japanese Sinology?
Tsutomu Tsutomu: Unfortunately, it is difficult for Japanese Sinology to be considered promising, perhaps I am pessimistic. Here's why: First, as you said, this is because the faculty of universities is gradually decreasing. For example, the Department of Oriental History of the Literature Department of Beijing University used to be five compilations, but now there are only three. At other universities, there are also cases where the number of faculty members of Oriental history is zero. Second, one of the reasons for this phenomenon is the sharp decline in the number of students who aspire to study in China. At Kyo university, as mentioned earlier, although there are six to ten undergraduate students majoring in oriental history, there are basically no students who have advanced to graduate school. In our time, 80% of students were researchers who wanted to go to graduate school. Third, one of the reasons why there are fewer and fewer people majoring in Chinese studies is that everyone no longer cares about China, and there are fewer students who like Chinese and classical studies. The University Entrance Examination also no longer takes Chinese. If you can not learn in high school, then you will not be interested. Fourthly, as I said earlier, in order to form a high mountain, it is necessary to occupy a vast field in the foothills, and the situation for raising the standard of this academic field is that there are no young strata to form the wilderness of the foothills.
In this "negative spiral," it can only be honestly said that the future of Japanese Sinology is pessimistic.
On March 13, 2017, I came to Kyoto to listen to your retirement speech. At that time, you said that in addition to teaching at Ryukoku University, you would be fascinated by raising flowers and grass. Suddenly, it was another five years. On March 31 this year, you will retire from Ryukoku University, and you can't help but feel that time flies. However, recently, the Iwanami Lectures on General History of the World, which you co-compiled, have been published one after another, and the fifth to seventh volumes are directly related to the Chinese world. Compared with the previous general theory of Chinese history, is there any purpose of writing this time that reflects the latest research trends?
Poster of Kyoto University's retirement lecture
Ji Gu Zhi: Time flies so fast, "it is no different from the gap of Qi Ji". Speaking of Qi Ji, my motto is "When Qi Ji is in full shape, it travels thousands of miles a day, until it ages, and the horse leads first." I am not Qi Ji, and I have ended my academic career with the intention of practicing Tao Yuanming's "return to the garden and living in the countryside". About three years ago, I was commissioned to edit the pre-modern volume of Lectures on World History (Iwanami Shoten). The book has been published since September last year, and of the China-related volumes, the fifth volume, which I am the editor-in-chief of, and the sixth volume, which I have provided as a contributor, have been published. This message also reached China, and many friends mentioned this set of books to me.
The general discussion of the fifth volume is a summary of the results of my research so far, and I think it is my last academic paper. In this "general theory", I talk about the staging problem of the three volumes: from the pre-Qin to the Qin and Han dynasties is the first stage, the "Han unified empire" was born, and the "China" of the Han nationality came into contact, integration, and sublimation with foreign nationalities, and finally the Western Jin Dynasty, opening the reconstruction of the new "China"; from the Southern and Northern Dynasties to the Sui and Tang Dynasties unification is the second stage, this is not "Han China", the surrounding non-Han nationalities incubated in han Chinese society, forming a "Heavenly Khan" world; after the Anshi Rebellion, the system of the early Tang Dynasty collapsed, and the Liao, Jin, and Tang dynasties disintegrated. The surrounding foreign nationalities such as the Yuan gradually changed and deconstructed the "Chinese" of the second stage, resulting in a new "Chinese world". Through volumes 5, 6 and 7, we will discuss the performance of the "multi-layered links of the Chinese world", that is, to show the expansion and transformation process of the "Chinese world" that constantly integrates foreign races and cultures and transforms itself.
Finally, I sincerely thank you for accepting the interview, and wish you a pleasant pastoral life of "morning rise and absurdity, with the moon and the lotus hoe".
Tsutomu: Thank you! I hope that you will work towards "the oriental studies of the world."