Eight of the 19 question-raising friends received book donations, and the organizers added two new books by Sun Zhouyong, Secretary of the Party Committee and President of the Shaanxi Archaeological Institute, "Jue Out of Zhou Yuan: A Glimpse into the Handicraft Production Form of Western Zhou" (Shanghai Ancient Books Publishing House). The award-winning listeners were: Shanghai Yang Fuxing, Shanghai lawyer Wang Yong, Lanzhou University Wang Yixin, Northwest University Qi Xiang, Shaanxi Normal University Kong Xinyuan, Beijing Wenbo Wang Jing, Shenzhen investor He Ren, Wuhan Huazhong University of Science and Technology Wang Lifen
【Introduction】On January 7, 2023, the 159th Wenhui Lecture Hall "The Origin and Formation of Chinese Civilization" series of four lectures on New Year's Eve specially supported by The Paper News Network as the media came to a successful end. The 26 effective questions were answered by three keynote speakers - Gao Jiangtao and Zhao Haitao of the Institute of Archaeology of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, and Di Nan of the Shaanxi Institute of Archaeology in the WeChat group at the scene and at the end, so that the listeners had a more detailed understanding of the three kingdoms and dynasties in the upper and middle reaches of the Yellow River and the connections between them.
17 of these Q&As have been selected for the benefit of listeners and readers. The three keynote speeches will be published tomorrow (13th), and the rest the day after tomorrow (14th).
Host Li Nian presided over the question session, and the three guests answered questions from listeners
*Archaeology is based on non-deterministic speculations based on available materials
Shanghai Accounting Consultant Yang Fuxing: You just mentioned the four certificates, what kind of proof is needed to clearly conclude that Taosi is Yaodu?
Gao Jiangtao: This is actually a typical archaeological and documentary problem. Theoretically, on the one hand, no amount of evidence can draw a clear conclusion to determine that Taosi is Yaodu. The key word "is" is certainly inconclusive, even if the evidence is sufficient. What we see is also what was left over from thousands of years ago, many of which exist in material form, and many things at the superstructure-level and spiritual concept level cannot be preserved. Therefore, it is also a question of how much sufficient literature is considered "sufficient". On the other hand, it is not because we do not have 100% evidence that we cannot speculate about what it is or what it is likely to be.
Archaeologists often say that there are ten materials to say seven points, because archaeology has limitations, and what we excavate are all preserved remains, which is one-sided. Of course, if there are indeed various aspects and different levels of evidence, that is, the "chain of evidence", all pointing to a certain historical record, we can still make such a conclusion appropriately. However, if it is necessary to draw a very positive conclusion, it is estimated that no one will do so.
From this point of view, there is a difference, even a gap, between the research of archaeologists and the expectations of society. After all, scholars' research must have scientific principles, and only when there is sufficient evidence can appropriate judgments be made.
*One of the archaeological purposes, to enrich the historical connotation and activate the scene at that time
Shanghai electric power worker Zhu Weiqing: Current research shows that Erlitou may be the summer capital, what kind of archaeology is needed to confirm this?
Zhao Haitao: My views are basically the same as Gao Jiangtao. There is no most critical evidence or the text at that time, and there is a lack of 100% conclusive evidence, so doing these studies now can only be said to be very likely, most likely.
Therefore, it is necessary to turn to the study of other, more important practical issues, such as the connotation of Erlitou, the development model of royal power, the layout and the structure of the state, and the excavation of archaeological phenomena from settlements. Through the cooperation of various means and disciplines, it was necessary to restore the social life at that time, enrich the historical connotation of the time, and further activate the scene at that time.
*Around 4000, the oasis civilization culture had a deep influence on Chinese civilization
Shanghai lawyer Wang Yong (WeChat answer): Today, the three teachers all talked about China, the earth and the world, so is there any comparison with other world civilization centers in the same era? Was China related to other civilizations in the world at that time?
Gao Jiangtao: Other centers of civilization in the world at the same time, such as ancient Egypt, ancient Babylon, ancient India (Harappan civilization), etc., can certainly be compared with our period, but the comparative angle and place are more macroscopic, such as the development process of their civilization (China's late beginning), the nature of the state (the similarities and differences between theocracy or royal power), the mode of state operation, and so on.
In fact, around 4,000 years ago, the civilization that influenced China was precisely some oasis civilizations and cultures in Central Asia and West Asia, especially the bronze civilization, in addition to the near Indian region. Specific to the artifacts, the main artifacts are sea shells, bronze ware, sheep, agate and so on. Mr. Li Min of UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles) called it three interactive circles, and related articles can be found in related articles.
* The appearance of tombs is likely to be closely related to agriculture and settlement
Chen Jianchao, a researcher in Beijing: When did the burial system begin to take shape? How is it dealt with after the death of the person before this?
Gao Jiangtao: There are actually many ways to deal with the problem of how people deal with after death, such as water burial, cremation, etc., and in the end, it is more about buried in the earth pit burial, sarcophagus burial, etc. Judging from the current materials, most burials have pits, and if there are no graves and tombs, it is impossible to know the form of the tomb. The tombs with tombs and graves are about 10,000 years old, and in fact they are related to the rise of agriculture, or sedentary life. After the formation of agriculture, there is a stable sedentary life, and only then will you want to bury your ancestors or deceased people.
Therefore, the appearance of tombs is likely to be closely related to agriculture and settlement. The burial method gradually formed a burial system, and after development, it will further form a burial system containing ritual vessels and having a ceremonial system. This is related to the emergence of civilization, around five thousand years, or even earlier. After arriving at the Tao Temple, including the Erlitou period, a burial system with a clear connotation of the ritual system was formed.
How did Shiji disappear, and who came to Shiji again?
The horse face (left) of Shiji City has the function of late horse face (horse face in Pingyao, Shanxi during the Qing Dynasty, right).
*The only remaining remains of the sacrifice in the ruins of the stone is the sacrificial pit
History and Culture Student of Chifeng University in Baotou: Have groups of sacrificial sites similar to altars and temples been found at the Shiji site?
Di Nan: In 2015, the archaeological team found a stone structure outside Shiji City, with a square building inside and a half-moon-shaped stone wall outside, which was initially thought to be a sacrificial remain. Later, with the deepening of excavations, the original understanding was overturned and it was considered to be an early warning facility outside the city. At present, the remains clearly related to the sacrifice in the Shiji site can be seen as the human head sacrifice pit, and the altar temple mound has not been found for the time being.
The large base of more than 10,000 square meters on the top of the imperial city platform has only excavated some peripheral contours, and found some exquisite stone carvings, whether this building is related to religion, the specific nature is still uncertain, as for the altar temple mounds such as sacrificial remains have not been found for the time being.
*The Zhukaigou culture is about 100 years later than Shiji, and there is a substitution relationship, but the source and flow are not the same
Qi Xiang, a student at Northwest University in Shaanxi (WeChat answer): The lower limit of the Shiji culture has entered the summer era. According to reports, remains dating back to 1800 BC have also been found at sites such as Imperial City Terrace. After the end of the Shiji culture, what is the flow of culture and people?
Di Nan: According to the excavation data of the Shiyan site, 1800 BC is the lower age limit of the Shiyan city site, and the original ethnic groups using the double beard basically disappeared, and then a group of ethnic groups from the north who used the "serpentine beard" occupied the place, and some scholars call such remains the "Zhukaigou culture".
In 2019, we found the remains of this "serpentine beard" on the top of the Imperial City Terrace, and he damaged some buildings in Shiji and rebuilt some buildings. Dating data show that the "serpentine remains" found in Shiji are roughly around 1600 BC, and there is a gap of about 100 years between the lower age of the city site.
From the cultural point of view, the two may belong to different archaeological cultures, and the source and flow are not the same. As far as the current findings are concerned, it may be related to the previous Shiji culture.
As for whether there is a kinship between ethnic groups, there is too little information at present for direct evidence.
*The demise of the Ishiji may not be related to foreign invasion, but to climate change
Liu Jidong, administrative officer of Qingyang, Gansu: Shiji is from Qingyang, Gansu, and some people say that Shiji was destroyed by nomads.
Di Nan: Shi Yan is located in a special geographical location, located along the Great Wall, which for a long time was the dividing line between farming and nomadism, and is a very sensitive climate. It is not ruled out that there is a possibility of extinction after the invasion of foreign enemies, but there is no evidence from archaeological discoveries to support this view, and I suspect that it may still be related to climate change, and there is no clear answer.
* The cold of the Longshan era and the change of livelihood to semi-farming and semi-pastoralism are not necessarily related to the demise of Shiji
Xi'an Shaanxi Shida Kong Xinyuan: The use of pigs in the late Yangshao and early Longshan production resources in the Yulin area was very common, and the use of cattle and sheep began to increase. What effect did this have on the decline of Shiji?
Di Nan: The earliest domestication of cattle and sheep was not in China, but in West Asia, which entered northwest China around 5,000 years ago. Such major changes are also related to changes in the environment. Because the Yangshao era was a warm period of climate, it gradually changed into a relatively dry and cold environment in the Longshan period, and the livelihood mode of some settlements also changed at this stage.
The Yangshao era was dominated by agriculture, but in the Longshan era, agriculture was still going on, but the proportion of animal husbandry gradually increased, transforming into a semi-agricultural and semi-pastoral production model, which was implemented throughout the Longshan era, until the demise of Shijia, the increase of cattle and sheep should not be necessarily related to the demise of Shijia.
*Ishikama shows that war was a very important part of everyday life at that time
Wang Yixin, a doctoral student at Lanzhou University: Is the appearance of Shiji horse face the earliest defense system in China?
Di Nan: To be precise, the horse face found in Shiji should be one of the earliest horse faces found in China. With the discovery and confirmation of horse faces in Shiji, in the excavations of some contemporaneous sites in south-central Inner Mongolia and northern Jinbei in Shanxi this year, very mature horse face facilities were also found on the city wall, most of which are similar in age to Shiyan, or even slightly earlier. But they basically appeared around 4000 BC.
What can be confirmed now is that around 4000 BC, relatively mature city defense facilities such as Mamian and Wengcheng appeared in the northern region, indicating that the demand for defense was very strong during this period, and frequent wars became the norm for residents.
* Stone Ridge or just at the crossroads of early cultural exchange
Wei Xinli (WeChat answer): The Shijia site, together with the Niuheliang and Xiajiadian stone defensive relics in Liaoning, together constituted the edge of China's grassland at that time, so what role did the Shijia site play in the cultural exchange of the Eurasian steppe?
Di Nan: The location of Shiji itself is very important, and this area, called the edge of the grassland, may have been a crossroads of early cultural exchanges around 4,000 years ago. Some of the more special artifacts found in Shiji, such as stone carvings, jade, mouth springs and a small number of bronzes, have been discussed by scholars about the similarities between similar artifacts in the Tao Temple, Erlitou, and more distant Russian Altai and Siberian Yenisei valleys, and frequent cultural exchanges may have been the catalyst for the birth of early states and civilizations in the region.
The edge of the grassland is often affected by the climate image, and in the early society, the economic model of these areas will be more fragile, the contradiction between people and resources will be prominent, or lead to frequent wars, which may be the main reason for the extreme demand for urban defense facilities in the region.
*The difference in ornamentation reflects that Shiji and Liangzhu belong to two different religious traditions
Wuhan teacher Wang Lifen (WeChat answer): Shi Zhi (Lushan Gong) has few animal patterns, and several animal patterns appear in the Huangchengtai, but Liangzhu Zhu has stable ornaments, how to understand the difference between this Zhu Gong ornamentation?
Di Nan: There are very few jade changs found in Shiji itself, and the small amount of jade found may have been transferred from other areas, and some jade cunches were cut for secondary modification. There are only a few pieces in Shiji, and different experts have seen different accounts of the source, some feel like Liangzhu's, and some say that they are from the Qi family.
The common types of jade in Shiji mainly include Yazhang, jade knife, jade pottery, jade shovel, Yabi, etc., which are basically plain and unornamented, showing that Shiji and Liangzhu should be two different religious traditions.
The animals of Shiji are mainly expressed in the form of stone carvings, and the style of realistic recognizable cows, horses, tigers, snakes, toads, etc., and some abstract to unrecognizable stone carvings, which are also generally similar to the sacred emblems found by Liangzhu. At present, our understanding of primitive religions is still relatively limited, and the initial feeling is that Shiji is more like polytheistic religion, while Liangzhu is more like monotheism.
*The bronze mask's exaggerated eyes show the worship of the eye in primitive religions
Qian Xinyu in the field of education in Shanghai (WeChat answer): Shiji has unearthed a small jade person, and there is a bronze mask in Erlitou, which is very different from our common human face, why is this the case?
Di Nan: In the seventies of the last century, a jade face was collected at the site of Shiji, and some scholars once studied it as the "Ichimoku" recorded in the "Classic of Mountains and Seas", in fact, if you look closely, this jade man is not a single eye, judging from the shape of the bun and mouth, it should show a person's side face.
The impression is that the Erlitou site has not announced the bronze man mask, only saw the turquoise plaque, perhaps you are talking about the bronze man mask found at the Sanxingdui site, this and the divine face on the stone carvings unearthed in Shiji do have many similarities, are based on the five senses of people, for some exaggerated performance. The most exaggerated eyes, some eyes bulging, some with large eye sockets outside, may be a kind of worship of the eyes in primitive religions.
Are Tao Temple and Shiji related? Is there a source to the image of the coiled dragon?
Gao Jiangtao answered that the image of the coiled dragon in the Tao Temple is a collection of many animals
*The large sites of Tuyi are mainly based on local culture, and also have typical cultures from other regions
Dr. Zhang Yuanyue of Xuzhou Mechanics: The Tao Temple site is not a single culture, but an overlap of multiple cultures, so how is it divided in archaeology?
Gao Jiangtao: Not only the Tao Temple, but all the prehistoric Tuyi sites, including Shiji and Erlitou, actually have typical cultural factors in other areas that are so-called diverse. This is the biggest characteristic of our Chinese nation, that is, inclusiveness.
The so-called cultural factors of other regions do not mean that there are only other cultural factors in the Tuyi site, and its main body or its core is the local culture with the site as the core. Taosi has other different areas, such as the Haidai area, the Xiliao River Basin, and even the Ganqing Qijia culture, as well as the cultural factors of Liangzhu in the middle reaches of the Yangtze River and the lower reaches of the Yangtze River, and the Xiaojia roof ridge and Shijiahe cultural factors in the middle reaches of the Yangtze River.
More interestingly, the cultural factors of other regions are typical of local culture, and even iconic artifacts. Recent studies have found that the Shijia culture also has the characteristics of belonging to the middle reaches of the Yangtze River and belonging to the Xiaojia roof culture. It should be emphasized that these are only a complex cultural factor, not the main body and mainstream of the Taosi culture.
*Compared with the dragons of Lingjiatan and Hongshan, the coiled dragons of Taosi Temple are a collection of three or four animals
Wang Jing, a scholar of Beijing: What is the inheritance relationship between the dragon image on the four coiled dragons of Tao Temple and the jade dragon of Lingjiatan and the jade pig dragon of Hongshan Mountain?
Gao Jiangtao: This is a very professional question, and it concerns each of us, because we all say that we are the descendants of dragons. There are a large number of articles on dragon research, and interestingly, dragons have been found at the three sites of Taosi, Lingjiatan and Hongshan.
Regarding the jade dragon of Lingjiatan and the jade dragon of Hongshan, first of all, the dragons of Lingjiatan and Hongshan are earlier than the dragons of Taosi. It now appears that one belongs to the north and the other to the south. Secondly, they have one thing in common, the three places are all coiled dragons in terms of morphology.
Of course, the difference between the three is still relatively large, and there are many controversies. For example, some scholars believe that the dragon in Lingjiatan is indeed rich in form, but some scholars believe that it is a jade tiger. Scholars also have different views on the dragons of Red Mountain. In the early days, some gentlemen believed that it was a grub, and rural families would often plow the grubs when they cultivated the land. It is clear that its head is the image of a pig, it is also said to be the image of a bear, and even various other images. In any case, it is a display or display of one or two animal figures.
However, the dragon of the Tao Temple is not a display of animal figures, it is a collection of at least three or four animal figures. First of all, it is the image of a snake, but at the same time it has two rows of crocodile teeth and snout, and slightly pointed ears, which may be the image of a bear. In short, the animal image of the dragon plate of the Tao Temple is a collection of a variety of animals, and the dragon in Erlitou is also a typical collection of multiple animals, and the dragon of the Shang Dynasty is a dragon image at a glance. From this point of view, the dragon of the Tao Temple is more later, and the time is closer to the dragon in the tomb of Erlitou and Shang Dynasty.
*The Tao Temple and the cultural type of Shiji belong to the same system, but they are by no means the same type
Hu Yuxin, an undergraduate archaeologist in Shaanxi (WeChat answer): The Tao Temple and Shiji city sites are almost coexisting in time and have similar cultural types, and the two are in the Shaanxi, Jinyu region and relatively close in each other, can it be proved through archaeological materials that the two are in the central and secondary settlements of political alliances or even the same state? Since the skulls of the Shiji Foundation Pit belong to the western ethnic minority, I think it is unlikely that the two are in a hostile relationship.
Gao Jiangtao: The Tao Temple and the Shiji have coexisted for at least 300 years. The Tao Temple may be slightly earlier than 100 years (new dating shows that the early Tao Temple has more data as 4400 years ago). The two cultural types are different, but from the perspective of the "ding system" and "hun system" we used to say, it can be understood that they belong to a large system, but they are by no means the same type.
The two regions are not close, the Tao Temple is closer to the western Yu and even the hinterland of the Central Plains, and the Tao Temple is strictly a basin (plain) civilization, not a plateau civilization. The two cannot be the same state, but of course there may be an alliance. Regardless of whether the relationship between alliance and hostility is archaeologically difficult to empirically, it can be appropriately and reasonably speculated.
Di Nan: The skull in the human head pit at the east gate of Shijia Outer City has been measured by physical anthropology and strontium isotopes, showing that it is not a local resident, nor a northwest resident, but comes from today's northeast region, close to the lower culture of Xiajiadian, showing that there is a long-distance cultural exchange between Shijia and the surrounding area, which may be a population obtained in war or trade.
The northwestern contemporaries of Shijia were the Qi family culture, and Shijia found a lot of pottery with two ears, and large tombs with martyrs bent on their sides outside the coffin, which may have been influenced by the Qi family culture.
What else radiates to the periphery?
Zhao Haitao replied that the late Erlitou copper casting technology was further developed, forming a bronze ceremonial combination based on bronze jue, staff, cup, ding and cymbal, laying the foundation for the Shang and Zhou ritual civilization
* The beard of the late fourth period of the Erlitou culture has the characteristics of northern culture
Qi Xiang, master of Northwest University in Xi'an (WeChat answer): Shiji and Erlitou, apart from the image of jade such as Yazhang and turquoise dragon showing that the two are closely related, are there any other examples? Shi Yu and Erlitou, apart from the jade and turquoise dragon images such as Yazhang show that the two are closely related, are there any other examples?
Zhao Haitao: There are also beards, high necks, and lace in the late fourth phase of the Erlitou culture, which have the characteristics of northern culture. Whether it is related to Shiji and the path of relationship needs to be explored in depth
*Erlitou copper casting technology laid the most important foundation for the Shang and Zhou bronze civilization
Shenzhen investor He Ren (WeChat answer): In addition to the radiation influence of Yazhang, is there also a phenomenon of influence on the shape of copper ware in peripheral areas and later generations?
Zhao Haitao: The further development of copper casting technology in the late Erlitou culture made it possible to create larger and more complex vessels, forming a combination of bronze ceremonial vessels dominated by bronze jue, staff, cup, ding and cymbal, which became the most important symbol of the status of the senior aristocracy.
In terms of casting technology, basic types of bronze ritual vessels, instrument shape style, function and the basic connotation of the bronze ritual music system, the bronze ritual music system laid the most important and direct foundation for the brilliant and developed Shang and Zhou bronze civilization in later generations, and through the expansion and development of the Shang and Zhou dynasty, the Chinese culture was formed and the foundation of ancient "China" was laid.
Finishing: Li Nian Jin Meng
Author: Lecture Hall Listener Di Nan Gao Jiangtao Zhao Haitao
Editor: Li Nian
Responsible editor: Li Nian
*Wenhui exclusive manuscript, please indicate the source for reprinting.