Theme: Writing history for the people
Time: 14:30-16:30, December 19, 2021
Location: Chengdu Luhu Xunlu Library
Guest: Wang Di Historian
Translated by Lu Dapeng
Moderator: Zhao Qiong Media Person
China is currently the only country in the world that has not interrupted the historical record from ancient times to the present. However, Chinese history is mostly centered on emperors and generals, and the main energy is focused on changing dynasties, emperors or ruling elites. Under the influence of heroic historical writing for a long time, some readers are more accustomed to the fact that history is created by heroic figures, so they should write heroic figures. In the past two or three decades, public historiography has risen. Historians are aware of the need to let historical writing out of the ivory tower and lead to reading by the masses.
Wang Di, born in Chengdu, Sichuan, is a distinguished professor and historian at the University of Macau. He went to the United States in 1991 and received his Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University in 1998. In recent years, he has attracted attention with public historiography writings such as "Brother Robe", "Tea House", and "The Tea Shop on that Street Corner".
China has the only uninterrupted historical record in the world from ancient times to the present, but it is mainly centered on the emperor and general
Zhao Qiong: "Writing history for the people", seeing this theme, I thought of two points: First, what is the history of the people in addition to the princely generals? Like the "Chronicle of History" is the history of emperors, what about the history of the general public? Second, out of the field of historical research, the history written for the general public, some will have a derivative color in it, like "What happened in the Ming Dynasty", it is not history, but historical stories.
How does Teacher Wang Di see "writing history for the people"?
Wang Di: China currently has the only uninterrupted historical record in the world from ancient times to the present, but it is mainly centered on the emperors and generals, and it is difficult to find the thoughts and stories of the people, and the suffering and joy experienced have a place in historical writing. Sima Qian's "Records of History" at least wrote a "Biography of assassins" related to the jianghu, and later many of the histories of the broken dynasties became more and more neglected by the people.
In fact, most historical research rarely pays attention to the people, but focuses on changing dynasties and generations, to the emperors or the elite of the world. This is the starting point for me to write history for the people, and I think the people should also have their rightful place in history, which is what I have been doing for the past three decades. Readers also need to have a conversion. Under the influence of heroic historical writing for a long time, many people believe that history is created by heroic figures, and heroic figures should be written. I don't think that's enough, we're all making history every day. I think that's what it means to write history for the people.
Zhao Qiong: In recent years, there has been a relatively hot concept of "non-fiction writing", and we have also seen "historical non-fiction writing". Many people have questions - can history still be fictionalized? What is fictional is not history, but historical stories.
Wang Di: The "non-fiction" in the concept of real history writing must have a factual basis. What we call "non-fiction" means that the historical content of the events, people, culture, and economy we talk about must either be supported by historical materials, or be our own fieldwork, or evidence obtained from the literature. Historical non-fiction writing is a way of writing that is more accessible to the masses. And our general history writing, like my first book, "Out of the Closed World," was written for professionals, a tome of more than seven hundred pages, with more than three hundred statistical tables in the middle.
When writing about history, I think it's important to consider a few questions:
First, there must be character shaping, and character shaping must have a basis.
Second, there must be a story. Why was "Brother Robe" recognized by the literary circles after its publication and won the "Lüliang Literature" Award? A big reason is that it depicts Lei Mingyuan as such a living robe brother. If there are no such characters just talking about events, I don't think it can be called non-fiction.
Third, the language must be vivid. I am also writing papers on very serious historical research, which are mainly analyzed on the basis of historical data, and I do not consider whether the language is vivid or not. But like "The Tea Shop on The Corner," I deliberately wanted to make it a little literary, not as serious and emotionless as my historical essay. Although we, as historians, must not let our emotions sway our judgments, but "The Tea Shop on that Street Corner" involved my own childhood memories, my experiences in Chengdu, and the people I came into contact with, I substituted myself. This sense of substitution is needed as historical non-fiction.
Finally, there's about the style of the book. There is a great emphasis on citations in history writing, and the books I have written have more detailed annotations. But when I wrote Street Culture, The Tea House, and Brother Robe, I had consciously hoped that these academic studies would be accessible to the general public, so I put all the annotations at the back of the book. In this way, the average reader can ignore the comments when reading, and the person who is interested in going back to the end can also find the source of information he is interested in according to the comments that follow.
If they don't write, this position will be occupied by some people who are not high enough, misleading the public
Lu Dapeng: When I first came to work at the publishing house, people didn't seem to talk much about the concepts of fiction and non-fiction, and the concepts often said in the industry were novels and non-fictions.
Many of the history books we see now, for example, there is a book about Wang Mang called "Xiangrui", if it is in Europe and the United States, it is generally not said that this is a nonnfiction (Editor's note: non-fiction), because this is a popular history book (popular history). Like He Wei's "Jiangcheng", or like the kind of travel literature that Professor Luo Xin likes, and like the translation documentary series of the Shanghai Translation Publishing House, this kind of news documentary writing is called nonfiction in Europe and the United States. Europe and the United States generally do not call "Xiangrui" a history book for the public to read as nonnfiction. On our side, it seems easy to confuse these two concepts, calling "Xiangrui" a non-fiction work, and non-fiction and popular history are very clearly distinguished in Europe and the United States.
However, non-fiction writing, or journalistic documentary writing, or documentary literature, is actually very closely related to history books. There are many examples of a good non-fiction writer who is later able to train himself to be a good writer of historical research. Like Applebaum, the author of Gulag: A History, she was originally a current political journalist, and now everyone should admit that she is a fairly good historian. I interviewed her in the UK a few years ago, and I asked her about the relationship between nonfiction writing and historical writing. Applebaum said: "Non-fiction writing is the preparation for historical writing." ”
Zhao Qiong: You have translated so many works, and there are many excellent historical works in them. From the translator's point of view, how do you see historians writing history to the masses?
Lu Dapeng: On the one hand, I am translating history books for the public, and on the other hand, I am also doing editing and introducing such history books. It is worth mentioning that the anglo-American historical circles I know are very, very different from those of France and Germany on the European continent.
Like Richard Evans, a very top Scholar in Britain, his study of Nazi Germany's "Third Reich Trilogy" was very popular in China. He wrote a large number of popular history books, and also wrote a small book on the history of British historiography, called "The World's Islanders: British Historians and The Continent". Richard Evans argues that British historiography is very different from that of Continental. The British are cosmopolitan islanders – since they are islanders, they may have a narrow vision, but the British are very cosmopolitan. Moreover, British history writing has a literary tradition, pays more attention to literary training, and emphasizes that history books must have some literary style and be accepted by everyone.
At the same time, British historians were very good at writing the history of other countries, for example, the British wrote The history of Germany very well, and the study of the Soviet Union was also very good. But conversely, German historians who study Britain and write British history are less acceptable in Britain and less likely to be translated into English. Of course, the United States and the United Kingdom are in the same vein, and they are also similar, and American authors are also very good at writing history books for the public.
I once interviewed David Abrafia of cambridge university, who himself studied Mediterranean history. I asked him, why would a very high-ranking historian in British historiography be willing to write a book for the masses? He believes that good scholars with professional training have the responsibility and obligation to write books for the public. Because if they don't write, this position will be occupied by some people who are not high enough, which will mislead the public. Therefore, he believes that British historians should have an obligation to do some public service and write some more beautiful history books for everyone.
The writing of history should be literary, and the writing of literature should have a sense of history
Wang Di: In the past two or three decades, the United States has used another word, which is public history, public historiography. Historians write history as a kind of academic research, mainly academic dialogue between historians' professions, and the discussion between views is to recognize history itself. But after the rise of public historiography, these historians realized that they had to let historical writing out of the ivory tower and lead to reading for the masses.
In the past, not only Chinese historiography, but also Western history, became more and more like the study of social sciences. The most typical is my book "Stepping Out of the Closed World", which uses the concepts of statistics, sociology, and economics to study history. Over the years, my own history writing has actually become closer and closer to narrative, and I have considered the literary nature of historical writing more and more. Hayden White wrote Metahistory, and he found that no matter what kind of historical writing, there is a potential structure under the historical narrative, which is actually in line with the division of literature, including comedy, tragedy, satire, and so on. Moreover, our historical research will also use literary rhetorical techniques, metaphors, metaphors, and so on. After the publication of Hayden White's book, it attracted widespread attention in the West and became increasingly influential in China.
In fact, China also has such a tradition, if we trace historical writing back to Sima Qian, his "History" is often chosen as a model for the ancient literature of our middle schools and universities, and it is not only a history book, but also a very good literary work. Later, the development of our historiography, especially the rise of new historiography in the 20th century, was influenced by the professional history writing of the West, that is, to find the real history, not to use emotion, and to make history more and more scientific.
When I arrived in the United States in the early 1990s, I found that the books I read in graduate classes in the United States were very few of the so-called traditional social science studies and more of the historical research works of the humanistic tendencies. This kind of humanistic history that I came into contact with in Europe and the United States had a profound impact on me. When I was writing my doctoral dissertation, I was thinking about how to express the culture of Chengdu. From "Street Culture" to "The Tea House" to "Brother Robe", I think that "The Tea Shop on that Street Corner" is getting closer and closer to the historical writing of narrative.
If I summarize my thinking on this issue in a simple sentence, I think that the writing of history should be literary, and the writing of literature should have a sense of history. You go and read Mo Yan's "Life and Death Fatigue", Lu Yao's "Ordinary World", Yu Hua's "Alive"... How strong is the sense of history.
Why do people like Li Jieren more and more now? His sense of belonging is very strong, so when I wrote "The Tea House" and "The Tea Shop on the Corner", I quoted Li Jieren's description, because the name of the tea house and the name of the street that he described were completely real. Of course, Li Jieren was also later pressured by literary criticism. But as a historian, I think this is too good because we rarely remember this kind of daily life. In particular, he wrote about the urban changes in Chengdu during the great turning point of the late 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, and there are no historical materials, where to find it? Fortunately, there is a Li Jie person. What Li Jieren recorded was actually what his eyes saw, what he experienced.
At the beginning of the 21st century, China has surpassed Germany to become the world's largest translation country
Zhao Qiong: How does Dapeng define good translations? In your translation process, how do you translate a work to be both accurate and interesting?
Lu Dapeng: Because the books I translate are basically popular history, they will emphasize literature. For example, in a war, a very academic historian might use a lot of numbers, archives, etc., to compare the economic situation, taxes, or how this kind of finance supported the military. Another way to write is to use non-linear narratives and multi-perspective literary techniques to write about war in a gripping way. Most of the way I translate. But I also like academic history books, like Wang Di's "Stepping Out of the Closed World", although there is a lot of mathematics in it that I, a liberal arts student, can't control, but the harvest is still very large.
The last seven or eight years in China have been a very prosperous period for the translation of historical works. A very prominent British publisher told me that in the past, Germany was the world's first translation power, and by the beginning of the 21st century, China had surpassed Germany and become the first translation power. There are now new history books, non-fiction writing, and high-end academic research abroad, and there will soon be Chinese editions, which is difficult to imagine in other countries. So despite the difficulties that the publishing industry is facing one way or another, we can still do a lot of things, which I think is very rare. Some of the book brands that everyone is very familiar with, such as The Republic, Houlang, CITIC, and our social science literature Oracle, have done a lot. Although those of us who are editors and translators who do the translation of history books are not rich enough to be able to bring a lot of these things to readers, to be able to introduce their favorite books to China, and to have some help for readers in need, I think we are still very lucky and happy.
Wang Di: As Teacher Dapeng said just now, I would like to add that a large number of translations, including those books of oracle bones, are actually very helpful for our academic research.
In the past, I was in the United States, mainly in dialogue with Western scholars, and when I arrived at the University of Macau after 2015, I felt that writing English works was too time and energy for me, after all, I was not a native language, like the second part of "The Tea House" was written for a full twelve years. When I returned to China, I began to write directly in Chinese, and since 2015 I have been working on the relationship between the United States and China after the Xinhai Revolution until the 1920s, especially the reaction to the New Culture Movement of the May Fourth Movement.
In the past, when I wrote in English, I mainly read the original English books. But now that I'm writing in Chinese, I'm making extensive references to works that have been translated about my research topics, such as Adam Tuz's The Terrible Flood. It would be very time-consuming to read such a thick English work from beginning to end. But if it's Chinese, I can see ten lines at a glance, very fast. For example, Barbara Tuchman's "Stilwell and the American Experience in China (1911-1945)", such a thick work, if it is read in English, it is relatively slow, but these books are translated and introduced one after another, which is very convenient to read.
In fact, my interest in reading has far exceeded my own writing needs, and as long as I see that the introduction book is well written and there are Chinese choices, I choose to read Chinese first. I also read the original English, sometimes I can't find Chinese version, such as Know My Name ("Know My Name"), What Remains ("Restless Ghost"), etc., can not find Chinese version I read the English original, if you can find the first choice or Chinese.
Recently, I also read Cornelius Ryan's "The Longest Day" about the Normandy landings, and also read Scott Anderson's "Lawrence of Arabia" translated by Roc, as well as Roger Crowley's "Mediterranean Trilogy", Paul French's "Midnight Peking" and so on. Although I don't study these questions, I expand the scope of my reading. I don't know that China has now become the first translation country, but it also shows the rise of our reading community, especially the younger generation.
Personal interests are very important
Can help you through tough times
Zhao Qiong: Teacher Wang Di's new work "The Tea Shop on the Corner of the Street" surprised me a little, there are many illustrations in it, and Teacher Wang Di wrote in the afterword that these illustrations were all drawn by himself. What kind of hobbies does Teacher Wang Di have besides historical research?
Wang Di: Actually, I usually paint very little. I used to love to draw, and I wanted to be an artist since I was a child. Unfortunately, at that time, the confidence of the Academy of Fine Arts was insufficient, and the history test of the 1978 college entrance examination was the best, and I thought it would be safer to simply apply for the history department, and then there was no time to consider art painting. In 2006, I was a resident researcher at the National Humanity Center in North Carolina, USA, and by chance, the resident researcher of the center that year had an old American woman, who was a professor at the University of California and had been studying Chinese painting. As we talked, we talked about my experiences as a child. She proposed that we paint together once a week. Having this opportunity evoked this imagination of art again. I painted there for a year, and I picked up this hobby for the first time since I went to college.
Now it is easier to draw with a tablet, and you don't need to prepare paper, pen and ink, you can operate on the computer. Sometimes I draw when I'm on a plane and I use a painting app. Because I collected a lot of old photos, the pictures had to be processed accordingly, so I connected painting and writing. If I want to use this app, I must be familiar with these things, and I will simply show some photos in painting according to my own artistic understanding.
When I came out of "The Tea Shop on the Corner of the Street", I thought that if I used pictures again, it would be a repetition of the previous book, and I would think more about the literary color of the book, and if I added some artistic forms, it might be richer. Nineteen paintings were finally painted, which I also mentioned in the epilogue of the book, which is also a fulfillment of my artistic dream as a teenager, and it is a new attempt.
Zhao Qiong: What hobbies does Dapeng have besides translating books?
Lu Dapeng: Experience a variety of cuisines. There are many very authentic foreign restaurants in Beijing, and there are also in Shanghai. I remember many years ago, when I was traveling abroad or on a business trip, some friends might have to bring their own Chinese rice and rice cookers... I think it's a pity that people still have to be brave enough to challenge something they haven't tasted. The last time I was in the UK, a friend took me to the most exotic restaurant, which was Eritrean cuisine, which was really interesting.
In addition to good food, I like to play computer games. I've been playing games since elementary school, and I'm interested in history, so I generally play history games, such as Age of Discovery, Age of Empires, etc. I don't chase new games anymore, I still play the old games I played when I was in middle school.
Wang Di: Actually, I still like to grow vegetables. When there was no land in Macau, I used plastic foam boxes on the balcony to grow vegetables, degraded kitchen waste into fertilizer and applied it directly, and invented my own equipment for degrading and collecting kitchen waste fertilizer. Basically there won't be a bag of garbage a week, and I'm very proud of that and have a great sense of accomplishment.
Zhao Qiong: The epidemic has lasted for two years, and in the new year, two teachers have cheered on readers and friends!
Lu Dapeng: I suggest that if you have any hobbies, such as reading, fishing, or cooking by yourself, you must enjoy these hobbies. Personal interests are very important and can help you through some tough times. Don't throw away these things you like.
Wang Di: From a historical point of view, whether writing the history of the world or writing the history of China, it will definitely be a very important event, which can be said to have a far-reaching impact, because the whole world is closed. For each of us, I think we should think about, first, how we get along with the world, how we get along with nature, how we can avoid causing damage to nature; second, I think it is how to live in harmony with each other, how to live in harmony with each other. I recently wrote a foreword to a book, A History of Human Evolution, which has just been published. This book has a very important point - human development to this day, in fact, it is mainly human cooperation rather than competition played a major role. Therefore, today, we must think more about how to cooperate between people, between countries and countries, and between nations. Finishing/Rain Station