Fan Deng: This year marks the centenary of the founding of the Communist Party of China, and I have always wanted to find a very good book on the history of the Party to introduce to you. I discovered this book called Tinder. After reading this book, my mood could not be calmed for a long time. Put yourself in the shoes of an intellectual, if we were young people or intellectuals, what could we do to save our lives?
I especially hope that more people can understand how "Tinder" was born, so I invited the author of this book, Mr. Liu Tong, a professor at Shanghai Jiao Tong University. Welcome, Professor Liu.
Professor Liu, what surprised me the most about your book was that it did not begin in 1921, but with the signing of the Xinugu Treaty. How did you come up with it?
Liu Tong: At that time, we wrote this book, first, for the centenary of the founding of the party, and second, Shanghai is the birthplace of the Communist Party, so we must come up with innovative and more important works.
This gave me a big problem, because the history of the Party, a big book, has been written for an unknown amount. The traditional staging began with the May Fourth Movement, which gave birth to a new culture and the Communist Party. But I think the founding of the Communist Party was not so simple, it did not fall from the sky, it must have gone through a historical process.
This process, as we know when we read modern history, is the first half of the twentieth century. The most turbulent era in China was the Gengzi Rebellion in 1900, and the "Xinugu Treaty" marked that China had reached the most humiliating and darkest era. All the money lost is lost, the sovereignty is lost, and the dignity is lost.
It is precisely because of that era that so many young people have become "angry youth". Everyone strongly retorted to overthrow imperialism and overthrow the feudal dynasty. So from that time on, generation after generation of young people rose. Many revolutionaries were produced among them, but the way of revolution was different, the degree of revolution was different, and this evolved step by step into the new cultural movement.
These young people who really established the Communist Party in the New Culture Movement are intellectuals, but they are not young masters and young ladies, they are not from noble families, but they are a group of suppressed young people at the lower levels of society. Therefore, the emergence and establishment of the Communist Party came step by step, rising step by step, and deepening step by step, and we must reflect this process. I am not only talking about the birth of the Communist Party, I am talking about the process of China's heroes and benevolent people finding a path to the rejuvenation of the Chinese nation and freedom and independence.
With such a line of thinking, the horizon is broadened. It is not limited to the traditional party history, not limited to these few people in the party history, but all these pioneers and generations of people are written into it. This generation also had a profound influence on the Communists who came after them. For example, Qiu Jin, Xu Xilin, and Lu Xun certainly had an influence on the Communists.
I think that showing a real historical picture, with a panoramic description, more importantly, there are stories and details, so that people can read it, so that people can feel that they can believe it. So I used such a guiding idea to create this book.
Fan Deng: In the process of exploring the period of salvation and survival before the founding of the Party, what stages do you think are mainly divided?
Liu Tong: The first stage is "angry youth." The manifestation of the "angry youth" was the assassin, such as Wu Fan (a modern Chinese democratic revolutionary who advocated assassination against the Manchu Qing government), which was the first step. Cai Yuanpei and Chen Duxiu both had the idea of an assassination group, which shows how deeply this trend of thought was at that time.
But personal resistance did not make much difference, and even if wen Shengcai (one of the martyrs of the Xinhai Revolution, who assassinated the Qing general Fu Qi in Guangzhou) succeeded and blew up the ministers, they did not change much history. So the next step is to meet the party.
Fan Deng: The representatives of that period were Chen Tianhua and Zou Rong, who wrote "Turning Back" and "Warning Bell".
Liu Tong: This is the representative of "angry youth". "Angry youth" represents an extreme anxiety about the country, an extreme indignation toward society, and an extreme criticism of Chinese. Therefore, the things written by Chen Tianhua are like slogans; the things written by Zou Rong belong to the content of nationalism, mainly in the platoon.
All these represent a trend of thought at that time, a kind of youth indignation, these things can stir people's blood to boil, but it is impossible to achieve victory.
Fan Deng: It may be a drumming action that makes the whole society shake.
Liu Tong: The other is to make Chinese awaken.
Fan Deng: "I recommend Xuanyuan with my blood" feeling. But in reality their changes to history are limited.
Liu Tong: That's why I specifically mention Lu Xun. At that time, as soon as Qiu Jin gave a speech, everyone crackled and applauded warmly. Qiu Jin said, "Let's all go back to the revolution!" The Zhou family brothers (Zhou Shuren and his brothers) immediately said no: we are government-funded students, and it is not a good opportunity. You told us to give up the official fees and go back to the revolution with you, and the head fell off, what should the mother do?
"Then you don't have to go back", Qiu Jin was so angry that he chopped the knife on the table and scolded them for being timid. However, the Zhou family brothers were still very concerned about Qiu Jin's affairs, and as soon as they heard that Qiu Jin's girl had been arrested, they immediately invited a Japanese colleague back to Shaoxing to inquire about the situation, indicating that they were very concerned about this matter in their hearts.
Fan Deng: But the method is different.
Liu Tong: Right. In fact, the attitude of Lu Xun and others at that time represented the attitude of the majority of the people, that is, I did not disapprove of the revolution, but I could not be too radical, and I could not ignore the front and ignore the future.
But there are such people, this style, just like the chivalrous style in the "Assassin Chronicles" in the Warring States period: I just want to sacrifice, to awaken the people of the country with my sacrifice. Therefore, the second group of people is the Hui Party Revolution, Qiu Jin, Xu Xilin and their kind of revolution.
The third stage is the League Revolution. The League Revolution knew how to organize. Sun Yat-sen raised money overseas, organized students studying in Japan, bought guns, bought bullets to transport to Hong Kong, and then secretly launched uprisings in Guangzhou and Qinzhou. It's a step further and organized. But they're still niche stuff. Hundreds of students, not professional soldiers, suddenly attacked the government and fought against the professional army, and they were outnumbered, so the chances of victory were very small.
Fan Deng: Seventy-two Martyrs of Huanghuagang.
Liu Tong: Right. But where are these people valuable? Lin Juemin knew that he would be sacrificed the next day, and the "Letter with His Wife" was written poignantly and movingly, but he told Yu Peilun that we still had to go, and we still had to dedicate ourselves.
Fan Deng: There are many details in the book about this Guangzhou uprising: to those who built bombs, others say that you don't have to go, you are a technician, you can build bombs, you hide, next time you can use you. He said I was building bombs to use, so how could you make me hide?
Liu Tong: These people have a strong sense of morality. Yu Peilun first made a bomb with Wang Jingwei, but it did not explode at the Silver Ingot Bridge, he left, and later went to Japan. People scolded him, saying that Wang Jingwei was arrested and how did you come back alive? His heart was particularly unbearable, and he felt that his conscience had been greatly condemned.
So these revolutionaries, morally speaking, are very innocent, very noble, full of enthusiasm. Although their uprising failed, each failure of the uprising could awaken more people to join the anti-Qing.
Fan Deng: Going forward and following. Why is the Wuchang uprising "a mistake to fight by mistake"?
Liu Tong: It is written in the book that the Wuchang Uprising was originally well planned, and Sun Yat-sen's revolution shook the Qing Dynasty from the outside, and if it could not be shaken, it had to be fought inside the Qing army. Therefore, the people of the Wuhan Gongjin Society (a revolutionary organization founded by revolutionaries to prepare for the Guangzhou uprising) went inside the Qing army. When preparing for the uprising, the bomb accidentally exploded, and all the documents were copied, and as a result, the three martyrs (referring to Peng Chufan, Liu Fuji, and Yang Hongsheng, three revolutionaries) were beheaded.
Then a large-scale hunt began, and by this time the dragons were leaderless. The leaders were hiding, not knowing where they had gone. Xiong Bingkun they thought, anyway, it is also a death, just I will bump into it. As a result, first, Xiong Bingkun and these infantrymen fired the first shot; second, they rushed to the armory to find an officer; the third step occupied the arsenal, mastered the troops, and went to arrest Li Yuanhong. This was all unplanned in advance.
Fan Deng: The Li Yuanhong described in your book is particularly wronged, And Li Yuanhong said that I don't want to do it, can you please stop looking for me. So why do you have to find someone like that?
Liu Tong: At that time, the Chinese people were still important to status, and depending on who was written on your bulletin, I had to know you.
Fan Deng: You Xiong Bingkun can't do it.
Liu Tong: Of course, Xiong Bingkun can't. I have to know who you are, and as soon as I see Lord Li, then we believe it. So this one still works.
Fan Deng: After the Wuchang Uprising, Yuan Shikai came out of the mountains, and he profited from fishing in the process.
Liu Tong: Right. It should be said that it seems to be an accidental factor, a superficial factor, but in fact, it is still strength that speaks. Yuan Shikai has been cultivating the Beiyang Army for so many years, and that is not a joke.
Fan Deng: Small station training (refers to a set of modern army training programs formulated by Yuan Shikai at Tianjin small stations).
Liu Tong: Right. This man is very clever, he not only trains soldiers, but also officers, and he holds the hearts of these officers tightly. Whether it is material interests, spiritual encouragement, or Yuan Shikai's personal charm, he can make these Beiyang officers have an iron heart to follow him. He laid these foundations and it won't work until this time. So we say that politics seems to have a lot of accidental events, but in fact, in the end, success or failure, you have to look at the basic conditions behind it, and how well he is prepared.
Fan Deng: So it's time for the interim president.
Liu Tong: This is what he has been practicing for many years in the Qing Dynasty. In the late period of China's feudal society, especially the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty, if you did not cultivate to the point of pure fire, you would not be able to stay in the official arena at all. Yuan Shikai has experienced so much tempering, when to sing what songs, what plays, come by the way.
Huang Xing and Sun Yat-sen had never been in the official palace, so they were both fooled by Yuan Shikai at this time. Warm reception, state guest treatment, and then sincere talks, talks, pushing the heart, a few times to make them all dizzy. Here lies the weakness of the petty bourgeoisie.
Fan Deng: We didn't understand why Song Jiaoren had to be assassinated before, because Song Jiaoren didn't eat his set.
Liu Tong: And the Kuomintang has an absolute majority in parliament.
Fan Deng: At that time, Song Jiaoren's status was very high, young and capable. Yuan Shikai entrusted a lot of relations to him, but he could not solve it, and even assassinated him.
Liu Tong: Right. Because Song Jiaoren believes that he has a majority of votes, he is elected as the prime minister, and then he can propose to the National Assembly, and he can restrain Yuan Shikai. Song Jiaoren was a "parliamentary fan" at the time, and he envisioned such a path to democracy in China. As a result, Yuan Shikai has a gun and smashes you with one punch. Therefore, the death of Song Jiaoren is actually a shattered republican dream.
Fan Deng: After that, Yuan Shikai was also known as the emperor. In the book, I felt very deeply, And Yuan Shikai was not satisfied with the end of the end, he said: "I have been busy with officials in my life, and I have read too little. Then he said, "Yang Du mistook me." ”
Liu Tong: To be honest, intellectuals during the Republic of China period sometimes played a very bad role, especially a must.
Yuan Shikai has achieved some achievements, and he still wants to be emperor in his heart. Yang Du saw it and immediately touted it, mainly saying that the quality of the common people during the Republic of China period was too low, or they had to have a monarchy, and it was up to you "Emperor Yuan" to sit in the seat, so that our country could be stable. They were arguing for monarchy from this perspective. Yuan Shikai did not want to understand in this regard, so under the promotion and praise of a group of people, his mind was dizzy.
Fan Deng: What may surprise Yuan Shikai the most is that the original Beiyang concubines also opposed him, and one by one they announced their independence.
Liu Tong: The Beiyang concubines themselves have views on Old Yuan, especially Feng Guozhang. I am so loyal to you, you don't tell me the truth, I ask you whether you really want to be emperor, he said what do I want to be? By this time you're in charge again. So Feng Guozhang feels that we henchmen have been played by you, and we have nothing to say.
Fan Deng: After the dream of the republic was shattered, it was Chen Duxiu who appeared on the scene and began to run "New Youth", and then Hu Shi began to do literary improvement.
Liu Tong: This is the third stage. After Yuan Shikai died, he taught the Chinese people a bitter lesson: We worked for half a day as a revolution, we engaged in a republic for half a day, and we got a Yuan Shikai. It seems that revolution alone cannot be done, and we must look for individualism and have ideas. After Yuan Shikai's death, these presidents were not so strong, and they could not control the education and public opinion circles.
These two conditions, one is the people's pursuit of new ideas and new culture, and the other is the weakness of the authorities' ideological control and cannot be managed. One is that a large number of students studying in Japan have returned to China, and Li Dazhao and Chen Duxiu have all returned to China. The other is that our brother has a few fifty dollars to run a magazine, a hundred dollars to run a newspaper, and do it.
Fan Deng: "New Youth" was born.
Liu Tong: "New Youth" is one of the thousands of magazines that emerged.
Fan Deng: Including Cai Yuanpei's reform of Peking University. Then I think it is particularly interesting that you wrote about Mr. Lu Xun. Chen Duxiu ran "New Youth", at the beginning there were not many people watching it, and the influence was not large, at this time Lu Xun stood out. He originally studied medicine in Japan, but later learned to think that it was more important to be alert to the people.
Liu Tong: I have spent a long time restoring a humanized Lu Xun. In fact, when Lu Xun was young, his family suffered such a great misfortune, and he had a deep memory of the fate of the country and the family. So he will seek the truth. After arriving in Japan, he felt discriminated again, so he abandoned medicine and literature. In fact, his heart is very hot, but he is cautious and does not make many friends, so he has no friends, and no one has said anything in his heart.
When he returned to China, he had to support his family and buy a house; then he had to go to the Ministry of Education to be a servant (equivalent to the deputy post of education director, who also served as section chief), which was an iron rice bowl. But being an official is not what he wants, so this person has been living in contradiction and pain. This kind of experience of his, as well as the experience of the official field, the experience of society, and the experience of studying abroad, has made him more and more rich. This pain is an accumulation that requires a window.
Fan Deng: Suitable to be a writer.
Liu Tong: Right. So Lu Xun was accumulating thick and thin at that time, he had been thinking about the problem for many years, and suddenly broke out. Lu Xun's point of view is not through writing a tragic novel, nor is it written passionately, he is dissecting human nature and dissecting the human nature of Chinese. His characters are not cute characters, they are all characters who make people look at him and lament his misfortune and anger.
But he dissected China's more representative human nature and established these images. Lu Xun gave us a mirror, we can't be such a person who is slaughtered by others, we can't be such a muddy person, we want revolution. This is the reason why Lu Xun was able to win the favor of young readers and influenced many later Communists.
Fan Deng: Today, even if we read "The True Biography of Ah Q", read Xiang Lin Sister-in-law (from "Blessings"), read "Medicine", we can still feel the breath of those people, he is not writing about one person, he is writing about a group of people.
You wrote in the book that Lu Xun had nothing to do at home at that time, copying the stele. Then Qian Xuantong came to him and said that maybe he could write a little text, and he began to embark on the road of literary heroism. It's amazing. So we look at this context very clearly. After Mr. Lu Xun did a good job, the May Fourth Movement came. The occurrence of the May Fourth Movement has a lot to do with the brewing of "New Youth".
Liu Tong: All advanced young people read "New Youth." These masters, at first, were readers of "New Youth", later became the authors of "New Youth", and later separated from "New Youth", such as "New Wave", "Xiangjiang Review" and so on.
Fan Deng: Then in the chapter "Zhengrong Youth", you mentioned that not only the gang of people who were meeting in Shanghai at that time were organizing the study of Marxism-Leninism, but many such organizations across the country, especially when you mentioned Yun Daiying's work in Wuhan, I think it was a lot of things, such as the Liqun Book Club.
Liu Tong: Why is it said that it is Zhengrong Youth? These people really played a very important role in promoting a new culture and Promoting Marxism-Leninism at that time.
Chen Duxiu founded the earliest Communist Party organizations in Shanghai and then asked everyone to go to various places to develop organizations. Who are you looking for to develop local organizations? Of course, we have to find alumni and colleagues who know, so Mao Zedong in Hunan; Chen Gongbo is a student of Peking University, that is, Chen Duxiu went; Dong Biwu, because he is Li Hanjun's hometown, he met Li Hanjun in Shanghai, was influenced by Li Hanjun, and believed in the Communist Party, so Dong Biwu is also equivalent to entering this circle.
Fan Deng: Including Zhang Guotao, Peking University.
Liu Tong: Yes. But Yun Daiying did not have this opportunity. Dong Biwu participated in the first congress and went back to Wuhan to re-establish the party, and then Yun Daiying, Lin Yuying, and Lin Yunan joined.
Fan Deng: The section on the founding of the Party is particularly wonderful, as you say in your book that Mao Zedong and Cai Hesen advocated the establishment of the Communist Party.
Liu Tong: At that time, Mao Zedong was influenced by two sides. On the one hand, Chen Duxiu's influence on him advocated the founding of the party. Then Mao Zedong had a mass base called the Xinmin Society, and most of the people in the Xinmin Society went abroad. Among them, Cai and Sen desperately watched Marxism-Leninism in Paris, and studied like a mesmerized study. Cai and Sen told Mao Zedong that we should also build a Communist Party. However, Cai and Sen had nothing to do with Chen Duxiu, and Cai and Sen only met Chen Duxiu after returning to China. As soon as Chen Duxiu saw him, he liked him very much and immediately stayed in the central government.
Fan Deng: The story of a major party building has been made into many movies, movies and TV series. Chen Duxiu and Li Dazhao, two important figures, did not even participate, and many of the other students could only go because of the summer vacation, which seemed a bit casual?
Liu Tong: There are two views on everything, one is called "hindsight", that is, knowing the result, knowing that the Communist Party has now developed like this, and then coming back to say a big deal. My point is to stand on the scene of history, what these people were like in those years, what they wrote about him.
When I was writing this book, a major memorial in Shanghai translated and published historical materials of the concession police. Marin is wanted by Interpol for being arrested by dutch authorities during a revolution in Indonesia. So Marin was targeted as soon as he came out of Moscow and passed through the Netherlands. When they arrived in Shanghai, the Dutch consulate informed Marin to report, which was tantamount to monitoring his movements. At the end of June, Japanese police detectives wrote a report that the Communist Party was going to hold a meeting.
Fan Deng: The Japanese are particularly well-informed.
Liu Tong: The police in their concession are ventilated. When I looked at the document, it was all in black and white. So Marin was targeted as soon as he arrived in Shanghai. As a result, he came to the meeting, and he spoke loudly, and you know that the sound insulation is not good at Shikumen.
Fan Deng: You can hear foreign languages spoken on the road.
Liu Tong: So the meeting was washed up. Therefore, what seems to be an accident is now inevitable from the historical data. I wrote all of these processes into it.
After that, I added a paragraph, which I particularly emphasized in the introduction: When did China open the First Congress? How did it become July 1st? In 1941, Mao Zedong and Dong Biwu were in Yan'an to commemorate the twentieth anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party. Mao Zedong said when we will open a big one. Dong Biwu said July, I can't remember which day it was. Then Mao Zedong said then let's have July 1st. So the anniversary of the Communist Party became July 1st, which was decided by the Central Committee.
When we re-revised the history of the Party, the mind was emancipated, and all scholars felt that July 1 was unlikely. At that time, Shao Weizheng, who was following Li Xinxiu in the history of the party, went to examine a major date. It just so happened that he found a rare version, Chen Gongbo's memoirs. Chen Gongbo's memoirs wrote: The meeting was washed away that day, and there was another murder when he returned to the hotel at night. Chen Gongbo ran away in anger.
Shao Weizheng suddenly thought that the murder must have been recorded in the newspaper. I went to Shanghai to check the old newspaper, and found that it was July 30, 1921. So he set the day of the meeting on July 30th, and further on, the meeting was held on the 23rd. So he wrote an article, "Examination of the Date and Attendance of the First National Congress of the Communist Party of China," which was published in the inaugural issue of Chinese Social Sciences. This problem is solved.
This problem is solved, but what about those who study party history? Originally, they were all written according to the authoritative conclusion of Hu Qiaomu's "Thirty Years of the Communist Party of China.". So please show Hu Qiaomu, Hu Qiaomu said I will write. He wrote a passage in the first volume at that time, that is, the first national congress of the Communist Party of China, which was held in secret in the Concession of White Terror, did not attract much attention from society except for being harassed and interrupted by police detectives. What does that mean? It may be that many people don't know, but in the vast darkness, a fire is ignited. With the Communist Party of China, there was something that happened later.
Fan Deng: Later, he went to Jiaxing South Lake, made a resolution in a small boat, and shouted some slogans.
Liu Tong: But none of the delegates who held the meeting realized that they had done something groundbreaking. Later, the majority of the deputies turned around, rebelled, defected, and left the Party.
Fan Deng: In addition to these elites in China trying to find a way out, the elites in Europe are also constantly working hard. There is a chapter in the book dedicated to the elites in Europe, which is Cai Yuanpei's advocacy of studying in France and working hard.
Liu Tong: Why should I write this paragraph? These young intellectuals stayed in school and returned to the Communist Party, and they were actually the most elite forces in the Communist Party, and Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping were among them, so I would like to write about the performance of these people in France.
At first, they wanted to work and study, and they wanted to live a good life. And stay in the ocean and can earn money, which is a good thing who does not go. But after going there, it backfired. First, the level of French proficiency is very low, and the vast majority of them do not go to university. Second, when they went, the First World War was over, and a large number of French soldiers returned and robbed their jobs. So what to do? So I pinned my hopes on Cai Yuanpei, on the French Embassy, and on Wu Zhihui.
Fan Deng: Cai Yuanpei scolded them.
Liu Tong: Cai Yuanpei believes that if you have the ability, you will take the test, and if you have no ability, you will work, what are you making?
Fan Deng: I don't take exams and I don't work, you ask me for money.
Liu Tong: That Cai Yuanpei can't afford it, to be honest. So what to do? Desperate to take the risk and occupy the Sino-French University, it is impossible to say anything, so it was sent back. After repatriation, these people were all revolutionaries and all joined the Communist Party.
Those who remained there organized the French Youth Communist Party. This group of people, Zhao Shiyan (an early proletarian revolutionary of the Communist Party of China who participated in the "May Fourth Movement"), had both academic ability and were able to work there to survive, and they also participated in the revolution and organized the Communist Party.
Their most capable was to overthrow Zhang Shenfu (whose father was the editor of the Hanlin Academy, and in 1917, Zhang Shenfu stayed at Peking University to work, and was one of the early founders of the Communist Party of China). You Zhang Shenfu came to us to be the Emperor Taishang, who obeyed you? Even though you have come to build the Party, we will eventually expel you.
Fan Deng: It doesn't matter if you are a professor at Peking University.
Liu Tong: It's useless, we don't want to be too emperor. Show the revolutionary temperament of these young people, who do not obey anyone, who are not afraid of whom, and who have backbone.
Fan Deng: Here you write about Zhou Enlai, Zhou Enlai was a person who became famous at a young age, in fact, he took on the heavy responsibility of the family very early, went to prison, and matured very early.
Liu Tong: Zhou Enlai's experience is different from Mao Zedong's. The first was that he had been sent to the fence for a long time; the second was to participate in the May Fourth Movement early and was imprisoned for several months. Being locked up for a few months is tantamount to going to college. After Zhou Enlai was released from prison, he knew what it was like to lose his freedom, so he became extremely alert later.
Fan Deng: He did underground work for so many years without being arrested.
Liu Tong: Can this be accidental? This is literacy. In addition, Zhou Enlai knew how to survive. Before others go to France, they look for a family to borrow a sum of money, and then go to France to sit in the mountains and eat the air, and when they have no money, they will make trouble.
Zhou Enlai was different, first he got a scholarship, and second, he got a job, that is, to write continuous reports for newspapers. In this way, he has two incomes to the bottom and can have no worries about food and clothing. He can go everywhere to observe, to go on outings, to visit friends. So he found Zhang Shenfu, became the earliest Communist Party member in France, and entered the core. Then he met Zhao Shiyan and joined the circle of students in France. He was originally outside the student circle, because he was a journalist, and after knowing Zhao Shiyan, he joined this student circle. After joining the student circle, Deng Xiaoping, Nie Rongzhen, and others all knew each other, and he had a wide range of contacts.
Then Zhang Shenfu, the eldest young master, returned to China and was hired as the director of the political department of Huangpu. He couldn't do it for two days, and recommended Zhou Enlai to do it. Zhou Enlai did not serve as a soldier for a day, and immediately went to the Whampoa Military Academy as the director of the political department.
Fan Deng: This is the question that we have not been answered when we read history in the past, thinking about how Zhou Enlai could be the director of the political department of the Whampoa Military Academy. It turned out to be recommended by Zhang Shenfu.
After the founding of the Communist Party, the first stage of the struggle was mainly the workers' movement. When I look at this paragraph, I feel that the workers' movement is really difficult to engage in, such as the Anyuan strike, Liu Shaoqi, Li Lisan and others. Why did the revolution start here with the workers' strike?
Liu Tong: When the Communist Party was founded, it was in accordance with the instructions of the Comintern, which asked you to engage in the workers' movement, so at the beginning it was the workers' movement, and Zhang Guotao was the secretary of the labor union.
Zhang Guotao is a Liren from Pingxiang, and I have been to his hometown, dozens of miles away from the Anyuan Coal Mine. So he asked Mao Zedong to go to the Pingxiang Coal Mine and the Anyuan Coal Mine to see. Have you ever seen the painting "Chairman Mao Goes to Anyuan"?
Fan Deng: I have that stamp.
Liu Tong: Let Mao Zedong go to see the situation first, and then Li Lisan and Liu Shaoqi went, and as soon as they left, they opened up the situation. But Li Lisan and Liu Shaoqi were smart in that they knew how to compromise and not do things to the extreme. When the Anyuan coal mine went on strike, the key facilities were not stopped, the motor room and the water pump were not stopped, so that they could bargain with the capitalists.
Fan Deng: If the motor room and the water pump are stopped, it will cause huge losses, so he retains the bottom line.
Liu Tong: He understood that strikes are also compromises, so he won. Moreover, he put forward a limited condition, that is, the abolition of the foreman and the prohibition of abuse of the worker. These conditions were something that the management could do, so the strike was won.
But the next Beijing-Hankou railway strike is different, the Beijing-Hankou railway strike is the entire Beijing-Hankou railway stopped, then the Beiyang warlords can bear it? Can Wu Peifu stand it? Absolutely cannot agree.
And they want to set up the Beijing-Hankou Railway Federation of Trade Unions, a national organization. Even if Wu Peifu is usually good to you, it must not be tolerated at this time. Therefore, the strike on the Beijing-Hankou Railway blocked the warlords' room for bargaining, which led to the "February 7" bloody massacre. However, the "February 7" bloody massacre affected Sun Yat-sen again. Sun Yat-sen said that by looking at the Communist Party, hundreds of thousands of people can be mobilized at any moment, and when will our Kuomintang be able to do this?
Fan Deng: In the past, Sun Yat-sen was actually not very optimistic about the Communist Party, he felt that these children were useless in making these things, and as a result, he saw the "February Seventh" strike, which shed so much blood, and everyone was willing to pay with their lives.
Liu Tong: Everything has a reason, and it will not be produced out of thin air. In this book, I try to do one link at a time, that is, to tell you that nothing comes in vain, not that you have it when you pat your head, it all requires certain conditions and certain factors.
Fan Deng: In the stage of cooperation between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, you first wrote that Chen Duxiu and everyone had a bad relationship. This was a man of particularly interesting character, quarreling with everyone, even those sent by the Soviet Union.
Liu Tong: Chen Duxiu is a man of personality, and in this book I have made a special comparison between Chen Duxiu and Mao Zedong; Chen Duxiu is a pioneer who can advocate a new culture, he can establish the Communist Party, but he cannot lead it, let alone play an armed struggle, so he can only play a role in a certain historical stage.
To be a leader of the Communist Party, you first need to be an organizer to unite the majority of the masses, and his biggest problem is that none of them can be united, and as soon as the party is founded, li Da, Li Hanjun, and Chen Wangdao are all scolded and run away.
Then he quarreled with Marin. After arguing with Marin, he happened to be arrested. Now the Shanghai Archives has found a photo of Chen Duxiu holding the prisoner's number when he was in the concession, he used a pseudonym at that time, a pair of faces to know that it was Chen Duxiu, that photo was found not long ago. It took Ma Lin 5,000 oceans to bail him out, so that Chen Duxiu was grateful to Ma Lin and was good to Ma Lin.
Fan Deng: Moreover, Chen Duxiu was afraid of bloodshed as soon as he encountered it, and he vigorously opposed the workers' movement and the strike.
Liu Tong: It was due to his historical limitations.
Fan Deng: Is it related to his origin?
Liu Tong: No one is a born revolutionary, so how did Mao Zedong go from a scholar to a revolutionary? It's all honed step by step. People have to go through the test, sometimes you take a few steps, but there are two or three steps that can't come, then it won't work.
Fan Deng: Therefore, after the cooperation between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, the birth of the Whampoa Military Academy was born, and then there were regular troops of the Kuomintang.
Liu Tong: The Communists thus joined the National Revolutionary Army and trained a number of founders for the Chinese People's Liberation Army.
Fan Deng: In the book, it is also mentioned many times that the students of the Whampoa Military Academy tried the small battles of the cattle knife and exercised step by step. Then came the will of Sun Yat-sen, who died particularly suddenly at the time.
Liu Tong: Because of liver cancer. He was also exhausted at that time, so many years of failure, always tossing, always exile, what kind of mood he was. But Sun Yat-sen was also fortunate that before he died, he finally recognized who was right and who could be relied upon, so that his will could be passed down.
Fan Deng: (Proposed) United Russia, United Communist Party, and support for peasants and workers. After that, Liao Zhongkai was suddenly stabbed, because Liao Zhongkai was a very important figure in the Kuomintang at that time, and you did not write in this case who did it.
Liu Tong: It is true that I still don't understand who did it. Liao Zhongkai was the de facto successor of Sun Yat-sen, nominally wang Jingwei, but the real power was in the hands of Liao Zhongkai. Liao Zhongkai was a staunch Kuomintang leftist, so the Kuomintang rightists hated him to the bone. But Hu Hanmin's relatives, Lin Zhimian's relatives (Hu Hanmin, Hu Yisheng, Lin Zhimian, the early leaders of the Kuomintang, were once suspected of being the murderers of Liao Zhongkai's case) and so on, seem to have less bitter hatred with Liao Zhongkai, and it is not worth it to take risks. So everyone suspects that it is Chiang Kai-shek, but there is no evidence.
Fan Deng: Because Chiang Kai-shek was the biggest beneficiary, after Liao Zhongkai was assassinated, the entire military power was vested in him. Chiang Kai-shek's appearance was also a very rapid appearance.
Liu Tong: He was tested. When Sun Yat-sen was at his most unlucky, when Chen Jiongming rebelled, Chiang Kai-shek went to the ship to help Sun Yat-sen command and wrote a "Chronicle of the Disaster of President Sun Da's Guangzhou." These two actions deeply touched Sun Yat-sen.
Test a person to see the key moments. There is a Grand Marshal's Mansion in Guangzhou, which is actually the office building of the British Tobacco Company, and it can be seen from the chronology that the staff headquarters of the Grand Marshal's Office has the same people as the marquee, that is, Chiang Kai-shek has persisted.
At that time, the wavering elements were the majority, and the firm ones were the minority, and Chiang Kai-shek showed that he firmly sided with Sun Yat-sen at this time, so he was valued by Sun Yat-sen.
Fan Deng: At the beginning of the Northern Expedition, the two parties were still relatively united and fought together, and later there was a "case of sorting out party affairs." This was led by Chiang Kai-shek, so why did he suddenly overturn Sun Yat-sen's will?
Liu Tong: This is not just Chiang Kai-shek, I wrote that during the Great Revolution and during the cooperation between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, they gradually showed that they were different from the class essence and values of the Communist Party. The Kuomintang wants to overthrow the great powers and eliminate the warlords and establish a democratic republic. The Communist Party wants to eliminate all exploiting classes and establish a red regime of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Values are fundamentally different.
In the course of the Great Revolution, the Northern Expeditionary Army in the front fought a war, and the rear began to fight the landlords, which aroused the disgust of many Kuomintang and Northern Expedition officers. At that time, "young master and young lady did the revolution", these students accepted revolutionary ideas to do the revolution, he had to study, he had to study a little money at home, so most of the students at that time were landlords and capitalists. But I did the revolution in front of me, and you copied our house behind me, and you say what they think of the Communist Party.
Moreover, Chiang Kai-shek became more and more aware that most of the most capable cadres in the Nationalist government and the most capable officers in the Northern Expeditionary Army were communists. So Can Chiang Kai-shek rest assured?
When we arrived in Shanghai, the most crucial thing was first for Cai Yuanpei and Wu Zhihui to persuade Chiang Kai-shek (the Qing Party), then Yu Qiaqing to persuade Chiang Kai-shek, then Jin Jinrong and Du Yuesheng to persuade Chiang Kai-shek, and then the foreigners in the concession to persuade Chiang Kai-shek. Therefore, Chiang Kai-shek's liquidation of the party is by no means a personal sentiment, but the Kuomintang and the Communist Party are completely different in class, essence, and values.
Fan Deng: So it led to the "April 12" incident.
Liu Tong: The April 12 incident is no accident.
Fan Deng: At that time, the workers' forces were armed, but they were quickly disarmed, and they were also inexperienced in the struggle against the enemy.
Liu Tong: At that time, the Kuomintang and the Communists cooperated, and the banner raised was the Kuomintang, and the third armed uprising in Shanghai at that time was commanded by Zhou Enlai, Zhao Shiyan, and Gu Shunzhang, but the government we established was mainly the Kuomintang. When the group photo was taken, a few Communists participated, most of them Kuomintang.
So the Northern Expeditionary Army came and said that you workers could no longer be armed, that you should disarm them, that you would surrender your weapons, and that it would not be okay not to disobey, because the Communist Party did not do itself under the banner of its own.
Fan Deng: It was during that time that the Communists in Shanghai began to withdraw to Wuhan, and Zhou Enlai was almost arrested at that time, hiding in the Reeds Hotel.
Liu Tong: Now it's called Pujiang Hotel.
Fan Deng: He was already in danger.
Liu Tong: At that time, no one could control anyone, and they could only take care of themselves. Chen Yannian was arrested in the alley, and Zhao Shiyan was caught at home.
Later, the wind was a little looser, and at that time, the only docks that the Kuomintang could control were sixteen piers, which was the Huajie in the southern urban area, and the Taikoo pier on Fuzhou Road was British, and the fair road dock was Japanese, and there were French. These Communists all went from foreigners' ships.
Fan Deng: It seems that there are many British steamships, and at that time, on British steamships, every ship was a communist.
Liu Tong: Right. The Kuomintang police could not enter the concession and could not go to the docks to inspect.
Fan Deng: Most of the people retreated to Wuhan, and this stage is the stage called "White Terror". Moreover, Li Dazhao was also poisoned in Beijing. This passage makes us feel that Li Dazhao has many opportunities to escape, and he has even been hiding in the Soviet embassy.
Liu Tong: Barracks.
Fan Deng: Hiding in the barracks, how come he couldn't be saved?
Liu Tong: This is because Li Dazhao is inexperienced. When the Penghu Reform Law failed, when Zhang Xun's restoration failed, they all hid in the embassy and took refuge, and then the embassy sent soldiers to send them on the train to leave. Neither the Beiyang government nor the Qing Dynasty government could arrest people.
But Li Dazhao hid in the Soviet embassy (barracks), the Western mission regarded the Soviet Union as an enemy, they reported to Zhang Zuolin, and then the Western mission collectively decided, saying that the Soviet embassy was not bound by the Xinugu Treaty, and you could arrest people. In this way, Zhang Zuolin and his army brazenly rushed into the Soviet embassy and arrested Li Dazhao.
Fan Deng: The death sentence of such a famous cultural figure as Li Dazhao was a shocking thing at the time, when many people were trying to rescue him.
Liu Tong: But Zhang Zuolin was born as a bandit, and he is not the same as Yuan Shikai and Xu Shichang, and he does not have that quality. Because Li Dazhao had instigated Guo Songling, Zhang Zuolin hated Li Dazhao to the bone. At that time, there was also Lin Changmin, who was lin Huiyin's father, who ran directly to Guo Songling's team and was shot, but some people did not write it.
Fan Deng: There are also photos of Li Dazhao before yiyi in the book, which is particularly calm and calm.
Liu Tong: Li Dazhao wrote a total of four self-reports in prison, all of which are now displayed in the Wan'an Cemetery, Li Dazhao's memorial hall. I saw those self-statements and felt that Li Dazhao was a communist with a frank heart. He acknowledged that he was a Communist Party and that he had done anything. He said it was a faith that was a struggle for the liberation of China.
Fan Deng: At this stage in Wuhan, we have experienced many "left" mistakes. During this time, mao zedong wrote in the book that there was a very profound reflection, what was he worried about?
Liu Tong: It's just that everyone can't find a correct direction. In the face of the massacre of the Kuomintang, Chen Duxiu panicked and hesitated. Then some people, like Qu Qiubai, Cai and Sen, who were very radical, said that we were going to revolt immediately. But what to do after the uprising, after the uprising you can't live? And there is no calculation.
At that time, these young people did not understand armed struggle, so it was impossible to have a long-term plan, a complete plan. At this time, the knife is almost on your neck, and Wang Jingwei's rebellion is also a matter of time, so Mao Zedong was very worried and had the idea of leaving the central government and going to the localities to carry out the revolution.
Fan Deng: We originally thought that Chairman Mao led the Autumn Harvest Uprising because he was in that place, but in fact he parachuted in.
Liu Tong: Sent from Wuhan.
Fan Deng: Yes, he can not go, he can stay in the city, or go back to Changsha. But he chose to go to the front line to lead the autumn harvest uprising.
Liu Tong: But Mao Zedong said later, and he said that at that time, if anyone said that I knew how to lead the revolutionary war and how to lead the Chinese revolution, it was all bragging. I'm just a teacher, I know what, pure groping.
When Mao Zedong first came out, he was caught by the vigilante group and almost killed him. Mao Zedong experienced a moment of horror, uncertain of life and death, locked up in a house, not knowing when he was dragged out and killed. The next day, after being released, Mao Zedong fled over the mountains.
I rode in a car from Qixi Village to the town of Paibu where the peasants rescued him, more than twenty miles, five or six mountains, and Mao Zedong climbed all night. Then we went to the top of the hill, where there was a thick wood and a stream, where Mao Zedong waited for a peasant. All the funds he brought with him were hacked by the militia in Qixi Village, and Mao Zedong reached the confluence of the Autumn Harvest Uprising with his bare hands.
Fan Deng: The funds used for the uprising were robbed and blackmailed, and there was none.
Liu Tong: This fledgling disaster taught Mao Zedong a profound lesson: Doing revolution is not a child's play, saying that killing you will kill you, and whoever is still polite to you. This taught Mao Zedong that we should be cautious when doing revolution first, and we should not leave the ranks casually or act alone. Second, fight if you win, go if you can't win, survive first, don't fight with you. Mao Zedong said that this was all learned in practice.
Fan Deng: That period of time also reflected Qu Qiubai's feeling of being a little simple, always launching riots.
Liu Tong: Qu Qiubai first had a fanatical sense of revenge; second, he was obedient to the Comintern, and the Comintern called you a city riot, and you rioted in the city.
Fan Deng: There were a lot of sacrifices at that time. Then it became logical that the Communists also had to have their own armed forces, so they went to Nanchang to revolt and fired the first shots, relying on Zhang Fakui's troops at that time.
Liu Tong: The Fourth Army. The largest force was He Long's Twentieth Army, but He Long's troops were not of the Yuan clan.
Fan Deng: The Nanchang uprising seemed to be a success at the time, but then I didn't know where to go.
Liu Tong: This also shows the immaturity of the early Communists. They went south to Guangdong, to Chaoshan, believing that there was a foundation of Peng Pan, and then occupied Shantou, with a port where the Soviet Union could reinforce from the sea. But the major mistake was to enter the core area of the Kuomintang. Guangdong is the base camp of the National Revolution and the place where the Kuomintang is most concentrated, and if you break into it and grab the land, can people not play with your life?
Then their own party organizations were not made public, the troops were not reorganized, and the local party organizations were not in contact, and these more than 20,000 people could not eat or drink when they walked on the road, and those who fell behind, got sick, and escaped were reduced every day. When we arrived in Guangdong, the attrition was reduced to more than 10,000 people, and the physical strength was so weak, and suddenly encountered more than 30,000 Kuomintang troops waiting for work, can you win the battle?
Fan Deng: In the end, I didn't expect to be miserable to that extent, that is, Zhou Enlai, Ye Ting, Nie Rongzhen, and Peng Pan, there were only a few people left, and the others were all scattered. This failure is really painful.
But Jude saved some troops at that time.
Liu Tong: First, Zhu De's troops were behind the palace, far from the core theater. Second, Zhu De, this person, is not how clear and firm he is when the matter comes to an end, but when he is in the palace army, he has this kind of quality.
I was at the Jinggangshan Memorial Hall to see the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" he read when he was studying in the Wutang, which wrote about the great chaos in the world at the end of the Eastern Han Dynasty, what do you do. He instructed: "Those who have great ambitions and weakness in the chaotic world will avoid it, wait for the opportunity, and succeed more later." "It's just that you find a place to hide first." Then there is the phrase "Whoever destroys the house of a troubled world will destroy it, and he shall be generous." "You can't be a bandit, you can't go to your house and rob a house."
These two instructions when Zhu De was young were the qualities he later cultivated. If I can't win the fight, I will first find a place to hide, and I will not harass the people and keep this team. So Jude was able to save a regiment at a critical moment.
Fan Deng: After Mao Zedong led the Autumn Harvest Uprising, he and Zhu De's two teams met. Then I couldn't find a place to go, so I chose to go to Jinggangshan. This selection process is also very interesting, how do they know that Jinggangshan can stay?
Liu Tong: After the failure of the Autumn Harvest Uprising, Mao Zedong was in Wenjia City at the time, and he said to retreat to Shonan, avoid the real and the virtual, find a far-away place, a safe place, and let's first keep this team, which is Mao Zedong's concept. He didn't know where to go, so he said that our direction of progress was kept secret, and those who were soldiers were not allowed to ask questions and followed me. Then drill the ravine.
The soldier wanted to go and didn't tell me where to go, so he ran away, deserted, and fled more and more. When he reached Lianhua County, the Jiangxi Provincial Party Committee sent him a letter saying that if you go further, there is Jinggangshan in front of you, and there is a bandit Yuan Wencai, who has been a communist for half a year. You know that there is Yuan Wencai, and you don't know that Jinggang Mountain can't go up, so you still can't say, or follow along. As a result, the team was on the verge of collapse, walked to Three Bays, and tried to escape that night.
Mao Zedong knew that this team would be difficult to bring. The next morning a meeting was held, the first was drawn down, the second branch was built on the company, and the third dismissed the officers who had left Germany, formed into the officer corps, and removed all of them. In this way, Mao Zedong stabilized the team.
Fan Deng: And he gave a severance fund. Whoever wants to go, take a few dollars and leave, those few dollars are actually not much.
Liu Tong: Enough to go home.
Fan Deng: Chairman Mao used this method to screen out a group of revolutionaries with strong will. If you are not a strong-willed revolutionary, you will doubt and do not know where to go.
Liu Tong: The Sanwan reorganization enabled Mao Zedong to establish a lifelong principle of employment, that is, first of all, to be thick, loyal and honest, firm in his stance, and not to rebel at key moments. Without this, even the most talented person does not need it.
After Mao Zedong arrived in Yan'an, the first thing he did was to take a group photo with the comrades of Jinggangshan, called "Comrades of Jinggangshan". When selecting cadres, he will ask you what year you are, who you have followed, whether you have escaped, whether you have been arrested, and according to your experience, Mao Zedong will have a judgment on you. This later became his lifelong employment principle.
Fan Deng: So after the reorganization of Sanwan, I think this should be regarded as a core unit of the Red Army, a unit with a firm stance.
Then when I went up Jinggangshan, it was not easy. Yuan Wencai and Wang Zuo do not welcome you. You calculate the economic account for them in the book, it is such a big place, can it feed so many people.
Liu Tong: In fact, it is impossible to feed.
Fan Deng: Then how did he convince Yuan Wencai to do them?
Liu Tong: For Yuan Wencai, the first is to give him a hundred guns; the second is that Mao Zedong is not embarrassed by him. Don't you mean that you don't have the money to feed me, I went down the hill to collect grain to raise money, I first went around the mountain in a big circle, brought enough money and food and then went up the mountain. For Wang Zuo, he sent He Changgong to give him a letter of submission and kill Wang Zuo's biggest enemy, Yin Daoyi, the leader of the militia in Nashan Village.
Later, I also went to see where the village of Nashan, where Yin Daoyi was located. Go to Jinggangshan, to the village behind a big red flag at the highway toll station, which is the old Wo Nashan Village of Yin Daoyi. At that time, He Changgong ambushed, killed Yin Daoyi, and carried this human head to see Wang Zuo, who was convinced and decided to follow the Communist Party and Chairman Mao.
Fan Deng: But at the same time, the city is still playing out white terror.
Liu Tong: Yes, because there are still constant urban riots.
Fan Deng: I think you didn't write along the autumn harvest uprising and Jinggangshan, because you took into account another group of communists, and the Guangzhou uprising was still developing in the city.
Liu Tong: The Guangzhou uprising, the urban riot, failed again, and later Peng Pan also failed in Chaoshan.
Fan Deng: Especially in Wuhan, the massacre of Communists began.
Liu Tong: It is better to kill three thousand by mistake than to let go of one.
Fan Deng: In fact, this was not said by Chiang Kai-shek, but by the warlord Tao Jun.
Then the Zhumao Red Army began to develop at Jinggangshan. Here's a passage that I don't think has been written in other history books. You wrote that Zhu De and Mao Zedong actually disagreed, what is going on in this history?
Liu Tong: A person's experience forms his thinking and inertia. Zhu De was an old soldier, and he liked to take the team to the state capital, and then play a vote to enrich my troops, and he thought that the team could survive.
Fan Deng: You don't have the money to fight you.
Liu Tong: Moreover, Zhu De also implemented the salary system at that time, and he also implemented the salary system in his ranks.
Fan Deng: It means that every soldier has to pay a salary.
Liu Tong: In addition, after going to Jinggang Mountain, Zhu De's team disobeyed: Why should we suffer from this poverty on the mountain, let's go down and fight again, and go to the state to go through the capital. It just so happened that the Hunan Provincial Party Committee and the Jiangxi Provincial Party Committee conveyed the central order: You go to Shonan to riot and fight Chenzhou. Jude took the team and left. Mao Zedong was anxious and wrote to say that you would come back. Judd didn't come back.
Fan Deng: The Red Army split.
Liu Tong: Zhu De believes that we are also carrying out orders from our superiors. As a result, a dozen Chenzhou just happened to meet Fan Shisheng.
Fan Deng: Fan Shisheng is Zhu De's benefactor.
Liu Tong: As a result, Zhu De was defeated, and the Twenty-ninth Regiment also collapsed. Then lead the team back to Guidong. I went to that place, and it was in that little house that Zhu De and Chen Yi saw Mao Zedong again with shame on their faces. Mao Zedong said that if you come back, you will never say bad things about you. While they were talking, the Kuomintang chased after them again, and a battalion commander, Lin Biao, desperately resisted and rescued them.
Mao Zedong and Zhu De's philosophy are different. Later, Chen Yi made a speech at a meeting of the Central Military Commission, that is, the difference between the concepts of the new army and the old army, which I quoted in the book: The old army liked to go through the prefectures and the new army advocated the establishment of rural base areas; the old army was the supremacy of the commanders, the military commanders had the final say, and the new army advocated that the party should manage everything; the old army only managed to fight wars and ignore the people; the new army should pay attention to publicizing the masses, educating the masses, establishing grass-roots local party organizations, and so on. These are all differences, and I think Chen Yi summed it up very well.
When mao zedong wanted to put out his concept of army building at the Seventh National Congress of the Red Fourth Army, he wrote a long letter to Lin Biao, listing the fourteen problems that needed to be improved in the Red Fourth Army. This is the political construction of the army, the party leading the army, and this is the comprehensive understanding of the army that Mao Zedong first put forward. When they heard this, they said that Mao Zedong was the dictatorship of the secretary and elected Mao Zedong in one election.
Fan Deng: Resigned in anger.
Liu Tong: In fact, he was chosen.
Fan Deng: In the middle of this, Chen Yi also returned to Shanghai to ask for instructions once.
Liu Tong: Chen Yi was elected secretary, but Chen Yi did not dare to be the secretary. Because Mao Zedong was a member of the Central Committee, according to the concept of organization, the change of leadership of the Red Fourth Army must go through the Central Committee, and it cannot be decided by itself.
Fan Deng: At that time, everyone's organizational concept was already so sound?
Liu Tong: There are still concepts at the upper and lower levels, and there are still concepts at the local and central levels. So Chen Yi said I had to report to the central authorities. To be fair, Chen Yi's report was objective, he was telling the truth, and did not favor either side of Zhu and Mao. Therefore, the source of many stories here is from Chen Yi's report to the Central Committee in that year.
Why did I write this paragraph in detail? I have three relatively important materials: One is the "Report on the History and Condition of the Zhu Mao Army" written by Chen Yi to the Central Committee in 1929, which is an abridged version in the "Selected Military Writings of Chen Yi", and I read the whole text.
The second was what Chen Yi spoke all day at the enlarged meeting of the Central Military Commission in 1958, that is, he talked about the difference between the proletarian army and the bourgeois army, and talked about the Seventh to Ninth Congresses of the Fourth Red Army. But the speech was not made public.
The third material is that before Marshal Chen Yi died, he told the people of the Academy of Military Sciences that you had come here and talked for about three days, and our record manuscript was more than one hundred and fifty pages, talking about the history of the Seventh National Congress of the Red Fourth Army to the Ninth National Congress of the Fourth Red Army.
Therefore, in these three periods of history, he alone spanned three eras, and his reflections and memories became more and more full and full. So I wrote this history based on these three materials.
Fan Deng: During that time, Mao Zedong was in Sujiapo, Jiaoyang, and he was sick.
Liu Tong: I also went to this place. In that village, in an ancestral hall, Fu Baicui, the head of the local Communist guerrilla group in Gutian, took in Mao Zedong. Fu Baicui was a large landowner, and the league would stay in Japan, but at this time he was a communist.
Mao Zedong could not stand in the Red Fourth Army and defected to Fu Baicui, who then arranged for him to live in this ancestral hall in Jiaoyang Sujiapo. But Mao Zedong had no guns, no guards, and no one cared about him. So Mao Zedong lived in a small black house and lived in fear every day. What if the Kuomintang comes? What if the bandits come? What should I do when the vigilante group comes? Mao Zedong did not dare to stay in the ancestral hall during the day, found a cave in the back mountain, crouched in the cave during the day, and made sure that the village was fine at dusk, and then touched it back to sleep.
I walked to this cave and squatted in the cave for five minutes, and I felt the lonely and painful feelings that Mao Zedong felt after he was seized of power. So is it easy for Mao Zedong to make a revolution? That's a big grievance.
But Mao Zedong realized some truths in this cave: Since you are so clever, how did you get driven down? This shows that no matter how much truth you have, you must also have the masses; no matter how clever your reasoning is, you must let the masses understand and the masses support you before it can work.
Fan Deng: In this process, the New Fourth Army also went to fight Meixian once, which was called the Red Fourth Army at that time.
Liu Tong: Mao Zedong and Chen Yi are gone, and Zhu De wants to go to the prefecture and go to Meizhou. Unexpectedly, Meizhou was very strong in defending the enemy, and as a result, a defeat was fought, and Liu Angong was also killed, and he came back in a hurry. At this time, Zhu De's subordinates felt that it was wrong to go through the prefecture, and only then did they feel that Mao Zedong was right. Therefore, without Chen Yi's report to the Central Committee and Zhu De's defeat in the battle, they would not have united to Gutian Village.
Fan Deng: Then the Gutian Conference was held, and at this time the Central Committee also wrote a letter, a very important letter.
Liu Tong: A very important letter. In the letter, after listening to Chen Yi's report, Zhou Enlai and Li Lisan, two members of the Standing Committee, clearly expressed their support for Mao Zedong. Mao Zedong was right in saying that the Red Army should be led by the Party, and that the Party should lead the army in accordance with Mao Zedong's policy of army building.
Fan Deng: The book says that the Gutian Conference solved one of the most basic problems, but what is the most basic problem you are referring to?
Liu Tong: Mao Zedong's army building policy is political army building, the party leads everything, and the branches are built on the company. How to implement it is to solve the most basic problems.
First, corporal punishment is abolished and no beatings are allowed; second, officers and men are equally treated equally; third, the wounded are absolutely forbidden to abandon on the battlefield. He grasped these three basic questions, and the team was brought up. He grasped the basic problems to such a meticulous degree, so the combat effectiveness was formed in this way, and this is mao Zedong's tradition of grasping problems and grasping the basic links.
Fan Deng: Your book was written about the Gutian Conference, and the final conclusion was "The spark of a star can burn the plains", when do you plan to write it? We didn't feel happy reading here, and when we read it, it stopped abruptly, and the story behind it was also very exciting.
Liu Tong: The story behind is very exciting. It should be said that our times are getting more and more progressive, especially in the network society, many historical materials have also been made public, and the telegraph documents that we thought were archives in the past have now been published. But if you have not read the original archives, you may not be able to see the problem from the compilation of these materials that are now published. Therefore, you must have looked at the original archives to quote these historical materials.
Historical materials are now more and more abundant, and we can calmly look back on these histories, which are all progress. Without these advances, my book would not have been available, and my mind would not have matured to this extent, so I still regard it as a phased achievement.
Fan Deng: How long did the book take?
Liu Tong: The second half of the manuscript was written by me ten years ago. At that time, I just thought that I had to write some real history. So then I wrote paragraph by paragraph, studying paragraph by paragraph.
When I was going to write a book on the history of the Party this time, I designed such a pathfinding process. The founding of the Communist Party was the first fire, and the autumn harvest uprising was the second fire, which found the correct path of the Chinese revolution. I use this as the subject of this book.
The book is an abbreviated version, and the full book is expected to be available by the end of this year, about 600,000 words. The difference between the whole book and the abbreviated version is that the whole book uses historical materials, and the abbreviated version turns the historical materials into narratives, and a piece of historical materials may be completed by me in one sentence.
Fan Deng: So behind every sentence in your book is supported by historical materials.
Liu Tong: All have historical materials as support.
FANDEN: Exceptional. Can you tell us, the young audience, why we are looking back at the history of the Party today? What does this mean to each of us ordinary people.
Liu Tong: This is called not forgetting the original heart. I used to look at the archives in the army, and after retiring from the army to the university, I had a lot of free time, so I went to history. The file is not written clearly, I have doubts, I went to the scene to investigate, the on-site inspection not only clarified many problems, but also many of them can not be reflected in the historical data. For example, what was the situation in the cave where Mao Zedong was squatting, what the village where Mao Zedong was captured looked like, and if you don't know where you know, which document can remember those things?
So I say that I don't forget my original intention, our China has developed to the present, how these founding fathers, when they were young, how did they rise step by step. There are more people who sacrifice, I wrote in the book, how many people sacrificed halfway.
Fan Deng: And a lot of people probably don't even have names.
Liu Tong: If these people had not sacrificed at that time, they might have been scholars, they might have been literary scholars, they might have been professors, and many of them were international students. They are for the destiny of the country and the nation. So the struggle of these people, the sacrifices of these people, we should remember and pass it on from generation to generation.
Fan Deng: The back cover of the book uses the words behind the Monument to the People's Heroes. I mentioned in a book two days ago that when a person walks through such a monument, he should feel the minimum humility, and you must know that what you have gained today is not the effort of you alone, but the blood and sacrifice of so many people before.
So thank you very much for writing such a good book for us, which makes us read with great determination and steadfastness. The historical materials in the book are very detailed, the logic is very strict, and one link is buckled. Let us clearly understand the road to China's salvation and survival, and how it has come step by step in the past hundred years. Even before the founding of the Communist Party, there were so many people who came forward to succeed each other, and then the Communist Party was born and found the correct path and direction.
Thank you, and we'll see you next week.
Liu Tong: Thank you.