Xu Yuanchong: In my lifetime, I will do one thing, "posterity is better than predecessors", "yimei, sound beauty, shape beauty" "I will do this one thing in my life"

Literary translation is to create beauty for the whole world, promote mutual understanding, mutual appreciation, mutual support between China and the world, and enrich the world's cultural resources

Wen | Ma Guochuan, a reporter from Caijing

Edited | Su Qi

Mr. Xu Yuanchong, a famous translator, died in Beijing on the morning of June 17 at the age of 100. Xu Yuanchong graduated from the Department of Foreign Languages of Southwest United University in his early years, was admitted to the Institute of Foreign Literature of the Research Institute of Tsinghua University in 1944, and has been a professor at Peking University since 1983. He has been engaged in literary translation for more than 60 years, covering Chinese, English, French and other languages, and has won the "Lifetime Achievement Award of Chinese Translation Culture" and the "Northern Lights" Outstanding Literary Translation Award, which is the first Asian translator to receive this honor.

On June 2, Mr. Xu Yuanchong was interviewed by Caijing reporters at Changchun Garden of Peking University. I would like to publish this final interview with Mr. Xu here as a souvenir. - Editor

"Literary translation is to create beauty for the whole world, and literary translation should turn out the literary flavor," Xu Yuanchong, a famous translator, said in an interview with Caijing reporter. ”

As the first Asian winner of the "Northern Lights" Award, the world's highest award in the field of literary translation, Xu Yuanchong has been engaged in literary translation for 80 years, publishing more than 100 kinds of Chinese, English and French translations at home and abroad, especially in the foreign translation of ancient Chinese poetry, and is known as "the only person who translates poetry into English and France".

In April this year, Xu Yuanchong celebrated his 100th birthday. This university scholar from Southwest United University has a variety of experiences in the journey of a hundred years of life. Today, he lives in the Changchun Garden of Peking University, writing 1,000 words a day, often staying up until two or three o'clock in the morning.

In the interview, Xu Yuanchong reviewed the Southwest United Congress that year, and also introduced his own translation ideas and theories. He believes that literary translation is to create beauty for the whole world, promote mutual understanding and mutual appreciation between China and the world, and "support each other and enrich the world's cultural resources."

"The more you know, the better." Xu Yuanchong regarded the pursuit of knowledge as a lifelong pursuit. Although he is already a centenarian, Xu Yuanchong is still full of love for knowledge and life. He goes for a walk in the park every day and occasionally takes a car to take a walk around the streets of Beijing. At the same time, he also pays attention to the world and is very familiar with the news of the US election and landing on Mars.

"The back wave of the Yangtze River pushes the front wave, and a generation of new people wins over the old." This is a sentence that Xu Yuanchong likes. At the end of the interview, the old man said in a full breath and a loud voice: "I don't have much of a demand myself, I just hope to live well, and at the same time, I can do my best to have a hot light." ”

<h1 class="pgc-h-arrow-right" data-track="16" > "posterity wins over predecessors"</h1>

Ma Guochuan: As a centenarian, do you look back at the road you have traveled in the past, and can you divide it into several stages?

Xu Yuanchong: If you follow the division of Dante's Divine Comedy, my life can be divided into trilogies: youth, purgatory, and rebirth. Before 1950, it was basically a period of learning and inheritance, while paying attention to the weaknesses of predecessors and preparing to transcend; before 1980, it was a period of transformation, which wasted the golden age of my life; after 1980, I began my period of transcendence, surpassing Chinese translators in foreign translation, and becoming the only person who translated poetry into English and France.

Ma Guochuan: From 1938 to 1946, you studied at Southwest United University for eight years. How do you personally evaluate the Southwest United University of that era?

Xu Yuanchong: Talking about the Southwest United Congress now, it is impossible to restore the feelings at that time, and the current view is not necessarily exactly the same as at that time. Because the longer the time, the greater the change in perception. The "Southwest United University" itself is a complex issue, which is the result of the merger of tsinghua, peking university and nankai university. The three schools are very different, some people think that Peking University is good, some people think Tsinghua is good, and some people think that Nankai is good, which is good? To investigate.

In my opinion, some aspects are good for Tsinghua, and some aspects are good for Peking University. It is not that Tsinghua is absolutely better than Peking University, nor is Peking University absolutely defeating Tsinghua. Tsinghua has the strengths of Tsinghua, and Peking University has the strengths of Peking University. Generally speaking, I prefer Tsinghua. Because Tsinghua mainly represents the United States, Peking University represents China. Tsinghua Western flavor foot, Peking University Chinese taste foot.

Ma Guochuan: For students, the learning environment of Southwest United University was free and relaxed, and the teachers of Southwest United University were mostly the best academic figures at that time. Who among these teachers has had the greatest impact on you?

Xu Yuanchong: Different teachers have different influences. These teachers were my teachers then and are still my teachers. Eighty years on, I can now see them more accurately than in the past, and I can see their shortcomings more. Because eighty years have passed, the times have progressed, and the views have also improved, and now many places are where posterity is better than predecessors.

Ma Guochuan: But there is also another possibility, that is, the new people are not as good as the old people.

Xu Yuanchong: This is all possible. Good or bad is not necessarily divided according to the old and new, good is good, bad is bad. I now think that they have a lot of shortcomings and could have been better. Qian Zhongshu, which seemed great to us at the time, also seems to have deficiencies today.

Mr. Qian believes that there are two kinds of translations, one is colored glass and the other is colorless glass. He advocated that the translation should be colorless glass, not colored glass, that is, every word should be translated, no more than the original text. I discussed it with him in person and eventually respected his opinion. But based on years of experience, my current view is that there is no colorless glass, it must be colored glass. The human eye has a color, and the "true color" cannot be seen. It is impossible to translate the "true color", and Mr. Qian himself believes that it is impossible to translate the "true color". For example, Liu Yuxi's poem "The sun rises in the east and rains in the west, and the road is clear but sunny", how can the translation be right with words and words?

Ma Guochuan: It seems that translation is either more or less, is it better to have more, or is it better to have less?

Xu Yuanchong: There can be more or less, not necessarily, depending on the specific situation, how to be more beautiful is how to translate. For example, in Mao Zedong's poem "Don't love red clothes, love arms", Mr. Qian Zhongshu advocated that red clothes are translated as "red clothes" and armed forces are translated as "armed". But in such a translation, the poetry is gone.

I translate it as to face the powder, not powder the face. Literally, face the powder means "face the smoke", not powder the face means "no grease and powder", which seems to be far from the original text, but I think that this translation of English is better than Chinese. If it is directly translated as "like guns and do not like to dress up", the taste is lost, and the charm of the poem is gone.

Ma Guochuan: You first agreed with Mr. Qian Zhongshu, when did it change?

Xu Yuanchong: Based on my own experience, I have gradually realized that some words should be translated literally, and if the paraphrasing can express the original meaning and make the text more beautiful, it should be paraphrased. The biggest difference between me and Mr. Qian is here.

Ma Guochuan: Actually, Mr. Qian Zhongshu is a scholar, not a translator. You are the real translator.

Xu Yuanchong: I don't dare to call myself a translator, it's all a matter of degree. In the case of literature, it is necessary not only to translate words and phrases, but also to translate their beauty. It doesn't have to be the best to follow the original text recently. If you strictly translate in accordance with the original text, you can not only express the meaning of the original text, but also express the beauty of the original text, then you can use the original text. If there is more beautiful than the original text, it may as well be adopted more beautiful.

<h1 class="pgc-h-arrow-right" data-track="71" > "meaning beauty, sound beauty, shape beauty"</h1>

Ma Guochuan: The late Qing Dynasty thinker Yan Fu proposed that the translator should be "Xindaya", do you agree?

Xu Yuanchong: "Xindaya" is all relative. There is no absolute "letter", some translations are more "up", and "Ya" is the most difficult to say. For example, "it rains in the east at sunrise and rain in the west" would be boring if it was literally translated as "the sun came out in the east and it rained in the west." If it is translated as "there is a smile in the east and tears in the west", and "rains" is translated as "tears", it is more personal, and the meaning is a little deeper and more elegant than the original text. It's important to express poetry.

When translated into a foreign language Chinese, it must be easy for Chinese to accept. Conversely, translating Chinese into foreign languages should also be acceptable to foreigners. Sometimes it's a literal change of word, but in terms of content, it doesn't hurt. In this case, it is more content-oriented than formal.

Ma Guochuan: This involves an important question, is it to respect the content, or to respect the poetic expression?

Xu Yuanchong: The language and writing in China are very different from those in the West, and according to statistics, only about 40 percent can be equalized. Therefore, when translating, especially literary works, the principle of reciprocity cannot be used alone. The creation of literary beauty needs to be expressed in the best translations, some of the original texts are very beautiful, and some of the original texts are not beautiful, so they should be analyzed according to the specific situation. If the equivalent word is the best way to express it, then use the equivalent word; if there is no equivalent or the equivalent is not the best expression, you should give up "equality" and take "best". Beethoven said it well: In order to be more beautiful, there is no rule that cannot be broken.

Ma Guochuan: As a translator, what do you think is your greatest contribution?

Xu Yuanchong: This problem is too big to be said to be the "greatest contribution", but it is just that some aspects have made a little more progress than others, and some aspects have made a little less progress than others, and they can make more progress in the future. In general, literary works should be both true and beautiful. If the translation only seeks truth and does not seek beauty, it cannot be regarded as faithful to the original text. This is my supplement and development of Mr. Qian Zhongshu's translation theory.

Ma Guochuan: Your presentation of the beauty of ancient Chinese poetry to Western readers is your greatest contribution.

Xu Yuanchong: People are abstract, I am able to be as concrete as possible. In fact, I just applied the writing method of Western poetry to the translation of Chinese poetry, and Western poetry also tried to make use of the benefits of Chinese poetry. Creating literary beauty requires the best translation to express it. In fact, anyone can do it by doing it this way.

Translation has to consider many aspects, which is the most beautiful I use. Beauty, very subjective, objective also has an impact, so after a while may change the view again, I often revise my own translations. The new ones always trump the old ones, and there are always more beautiful translations to be found.

Ma Guochuan: You pursue beauty in translation, but how to understand beauty is also a problem that everyone says.

Xu Yuanchong: I advocate the "three beauty" - the beauty of meaning, the beauty of shape, and the beauty of sound. Confucius said, "He who knows is not as good as the one who is good." The good one is not as good as the happy one. "Yimei" can make people "know", that is, the truth; "shape beauty" can make people "good", that is, good; "sound beauty" can make people "happy", that is, beauty. Therefore, the translation of truth, goodness and beauty is the best.

The relationship between truth, goodness, and beauty is to know, to be good, and to be happy. So how do people know, do good, and enjoy them? The method is truth, goodness and beauty. In this way, Chinese literature and art can make world literature and art one step further, and world literature and art can also make Chinese literature and art richer. The two sides support each other and enrich the world's cultural resources.

Ma Guochuan: Regarding translation, you have your own very systematic proposition. But I also noticed that there are actually many people in the Chinese translation community who disagree with your views.

Xu Yuanchong: Yes, it is difficult to convince me, it is easy to criticize me, but there are not many high voices of criticism, and few of them I say I am not convinced. What I said is not necessarily correct, there are opinions to come out, I will point out where it is not right. I have argued in person, and I have not yet encountered it if I can argue with me in person.

<h1 class="pgc-h-arrow-right" data-track="72" > "I've done this all my life."</h1>

Ma Guochuan: You have translated a lot of ancient Chinese poetry, and contemporary Chinese are no longer familiar with some ancient poems, and it is even more difficult for foreigners to understand ancient Chinese poetry.

Xu Yuanchong: The challenge is great. One of Li Bai's most famous poems is "The bright moonlight in front of the bed is suspected to be the frost on the ground." The Soviets asked Chairman Mao, "Where do you say this poem is good?" Later, he asked Mao Dun, and Mao Dun asked me because he knew that I was translating the poem. I said that because China has a concept of reunion, "bright moonlight in front of the bed", when you see the full moon, you think of reunion, and travelers look down and think of their hometown, so they say "look down and think of their hometown". The West does not have the concept of reunion, and the moon circle has nothing to do with family reunion, so the Soviets do not understand.

I translate "bright moonlight before bed" as before my bed a pool of light, and "head bent, in homesickness I am drowned." Comparing nostalgia to water, the bright moonlight in front of the bed is like a pool of water, and when you see the moonlight on the water, you think of your hometown like water. In this way, the Soviets suddenly realized: Your Chinese culture is profound, but it can be understood in this way.

Ma Guochuan: A poem illustrates the difference between Chinese and Western cultures.

Xu Yuanchong: So what we do in translation work is to try our best to make what we don't know become things that we understand. This step alone is not enough, but also a step further, so that mutual understanding becomes mutual liking. Chinese translation may be able to be understood by foreigners, but the beauty of China has not spread. How to make foreigners not only understand this meaning, but also understand this beauty and like this beauty? It's hard to do.

Literary translation is to create beauty for the whole world, and literary translation must translate the literary flavor, and I have done this one thing in my life. Each poem becomes another beautiful language, there is no fixed method, I have spent my life, and I dare not say that I found it. It's something worth a lifetime, and I'm still doing it.

Ma Guochuan: This is a very difficult cultural project, because in order for China to communicate with the world, we must first understand China and understand the world.

Xu Yuanchong: It is difficult, India and Egypt are also ancient cultural countries, and their history is longer than That of China, but the national smell is too heavy, the religious smell is too heavy, and it is difficult for their culture to become something that other ethnic groups can understand, so it is difficult to communicate with the world and it is difficult to develop themselves. In this respect, China trumps the West. Our religion does not smell heavy, and advocates "the world is just". In my personal opinion, as far as we know so far, in terms of ancient culture, Chinese culture is the highest. In the Book of Rites, there are sayings of "Datong" and "the world is just". To really study well, a lot of problems can be solved.

Ma Guochuan: In the book "Diary of Studying at Southwest United University", you talked about the "four realms of life" that Feng Youlan said -- the natural realm, the utilitarian realm, the moral realm, and the heaven and earth realm.

Xu Yuanchong: For people, the first three realms are enough. What is the "Realm of Heaven and Earth"? Maybe Mr. Feng Youlan didn't fully understand either. It is difficult for people to fully understand heaven and earth, and I think the realm of heaven and earth is impossible.

Ma Guochuan: I understand that what Feng Youlan calls "the realm of heaven and earth" means that a person has no desires and no needs, and can do one thing calmly.

Xu Yuanchong: Your standard is too low, if that's the case, it's too easy. Did Confucius reach the "realm of heaven and earth"? Didn't arrive. Lao Tzu didn't arrive either.

Ma Guochuan: You are 100 years old, and now you think the best time in your life is now, or when you are in college?

Xu Yuanchong: When I was in college, I was ignorant, and now I know a little more, but it is far from 100 points, and I don't even know more than I know. Anyway, I knew that there were a lot of things I didn't know. Knowledge goes from less to more, from not knowing to knowing, so that it can be, where there is a "heaven and earth realm".

Ma Guochuan: You have always regarded the pursuit of knowledge as a lifelong pursuit. As an intellectual over 100 years old, what hope do you have for your descendants?

Xu Yuanchong: A person's knowledge is always limited, there is no apex. Where could there be an all-knowing person? It can only be said that the more you know, the better.

Life should be as pleasant as possible. I don't have much to ask for myself, I just want to be able to live well, and at the same time, I can do my best to have a hot light. I have lived for 100 years, and I can't do much more, I can only rely on you to do it, and everyone has a point of heat and a light. "The back wave of the Yangtze River pushes the front wave, and a generation of new people wins over the old people", your future is getting bigger and bigger, and you hope that in the future.