"I hope to push the examination data to a new stage" - Interview with Mr. Li Yumin 丨202110-49 (Total No. 1810)

Transferred from the "Tang Chao Magazine" WeChat public account.

"I want to take the evidence to a new level"

——Interview with Mr. Lee Yu-min

01 Studying for a famous scholar, committed to research

Q: Hello Mr. Lee! You have studied at Hangzhou University and Peking University, and you have been close to the teachings of famous historians such as Xu Zhi and Deng Guangming, what impact has this study experience had on your later academic career, please briefly talk about it.

A: In 1959, I was admitted to the History Department of Hangzhou University and applied for the history major, purely because I liked it. At that time, there was no "ambition" to devote himself to academia, so he thought that since he had studied history, he would study well and prepare for becoming a middle school teacher in the future, after all, most of the graduates at that time went to middle school as teachers. After I went to college, I read as much as I could. You see there are so many books in the university library, which is unimaginable in middle school, so I just soak in the school library all day. When I was admitted to college, my grades were very good, and I was the key training object in the department, and Mr. Xu Gui, who was engaged in Song history, was still a lecturer at that time, and he was willing to train me and guide me. Mr. Xu Gui's mentors are Mr. Zhang Yinlin and Mr. Chen Lesu, under the influence of the teachers, Mr. Xu Gui's examination skills are very deep, and I am also influenced by Mr. Xu Zhi to lay a solid foundation in the basic skills of the examination. Although Mr. Xu Gui is a teacher, he has no sense of distance from the students, no shelf, and the articles he writes are willing to share with the students, which makes me feel very warm, and I am more willing to learn from him. Mr. Xu Gui once used the "Li Tao Chronology" he wrote to talk about how he examined the evidence and used historical materials. Later, when I wrote the "Liu Shu Chronology" in my undergraduate thesis, I was influenced by Mr. Xu Gui.

When I first conceived my graduation thesis, I originally wanted to study Sima Guang's historical thought, but later I found that in the process of compiling and revising the Zizhi Tongjian, Liu Shu's contribution was quite large, but few people knew that I was a little upset with Liu Shu. Liu Shu's materials are a total of several hundred words in the "History of Song", but from these hundreds of words, I found that Liu Shu intersected with Sima Guang, Fan Zuyu, Liu Shu, and Su Shi brothers, so I went to turn over the collections of these people. After turning over, new clues were found, and the clues were constantly expanded, and the material accumulated more and more. At that time, in order to check the materials, I also went to the Zhejiang Library to check the Wenlan Pavilion's "Four Libraries complete book". After the thesis was written, I showed it to Mr. Xu Gui, who was very happy and thought it was good, and when I graduated, my thesis was still taken out for exhibition.

By writing my dissertation, I found that writing an almanac was the fastest way to accumulate knowledge and master the methods of examination. When the knowledge is not rich, I want to go to the examination, I don't know where to start, how to take the test, where there are problems, it is not clear. However, by compiling the chronology, collecting all the information of the master of the genealogy, and then chronicle the date, the problems in the material will be presented. When there is a problem, further materials will be collected to solve it. This process not only allows for rapid accumulation of knowledge, but also gradually explores ways to examine evidence.

When I was about to graduate from college, the state suddenly announced that it would openly admit graduate students. In the past, although graduate students were also recruited, they were all recruited within each school, and the national open recruitment of graduate students was the first time. At that time, the number of graduate students was very small, and only Mr. Deng Guangming of Peking University recruited one in the direction of Song Shi, and Mr. Meng Wentong of Sichuan University recruited one. I didn't decide to apply for the exam at that time, from the announcement to the exam, it was probably more than a month apart, and Mr. Xu Gui also felt that it was too hasty. Moreover, at that time, the professional course determined by Mr. Deng was Song History, the basic course of the major was Sui and Tang History, and there were two reference books, "Zizhi Tongjian" and "Continuing Zizhi Tongjian", and there was no way to prepare. Before the application was about to close, I applied for graduate school at the instigation of the department leaders. Maybe it was good luck that when I was waiting at home for assignment, I was suddenly notified that I was admitted to Peking University.

Attending graduate school at Peking University was a turning point in my life. At that time, most of the graduate students went to universities or research institutes to do research, and it was then that I really had the idea of doing research in the future. Studying with Mr. Deng at Peking University has many benefits, the most important of which is to broaden your horizons. Mr. Deng not only has a solid foundation in examination, but also has a macro vision. For example, the "four keys" proposed by Mr. Deng have made great contributions to the current methods of historical research, and these are the basic skills that we should master. And Mr. Deng not only studies history, but also writes history. Mr. Deng is particularly strict with graduate students. He asked me to go to his house once or twice a week, and when I went there, I would talk about my study and what problems I had encountered. Sometimes asking him too big a question will be criticized as "big and inappropriate"; asking too small questions will be criticized as "drilling the horns". Mr. Deng's strictness is to force your own brain, let you think about how to do learning, and let the students break through on their own, which is also the biggest benefit of Mr. Deng.

At that time, Mr. Deng asked me to listen to two people's lessons, one was his special topic on song history, and the other was Mr. Wang's special topic on Sui and Tang history. Wang's lecture style is completely liberal, which is different from Mr. Deng's teaching style. Mr. Wang talked about the history of the Sui and Tang Dynasties, and the preface lasted half a semester, thinking of where to talk about where. However, it can be seen from this that he studied the history of the Sui and Tang Dynasties, and he had a fairly good grasp of the "source" before the Tang Dynasty, and only by mastering the "source" well could he have a full understanding of the "flow". In my journey of study, there were three people who had the greatest influence: Master Xu led me to the beginning, Master Deng led me to a higher place, and Mr. Wang broadened my horizons.

When I graduated from graduate school in 1966, the Cultural Revolution broke out that year, and our original distribution plan was all changed, first working in Beijing for two years, and then being assigned to Shanxi University. During the Cultural Revolution, there was revolution everywhere, and Shanxi was no exception. At that time, I felt that the "Cultural Revolution" would definitely end, that academia would definitely continue to be carried out, and that we would have to seize the time to engage in academic research now. At that time, I was living in the dormitory of the Shanxi Museum, and all I could come into contact with was archaeology and literature. Archaeology, ancient writing, these have little to do with politics, archaeology, there is no condition to excavate, I do not know how to excavate, there is no financial support, ancient writing can be engaged. I studied word by word, and then I went to see the papers that scholars debated with each other. These papers have their own truth, I can't distinguish, what to do? No one can ask for advice. I thought, then choose one person's treatise to read, I chose Guo Moruo's article. I took Guo Moruo's main works in ancient script to read, and I copied down some of them. In this way, I have a clear understanding of Guo Moruo's academic path, and then I will have the ability to distinguish between other people's papers. The first paper I wrote, "My Views on the Book of Hou Ma Meng", was to discuss with Mr. Guo Moruo. Writing that paper was not to argue with Guo Moruo, but mainly to know whether he was right to write this way. At that time, I wanted to find someone to ask for advice and could not find anyone, just when the state restored the three major publications of "Archaeology", "Cultural Relics" and "Archaeological Journal", I also had the opportunity to publish articles, anyway, young people are not afraid of losing face. My paper was finally checked by Mr. Guo Moruo and published in Archaeology, and he did not refute me, proving that the way was not wrong. All this is due to the training of Mr. Deng Guangming at Peking University, who encouraged the students to break through on their own, allowing me to break out of the world.

02 Consider history and look at the macroscopic picture

Question: You have edited the "Four Libraries Summary Error" (Shumu Literature Publishing House, 1990, hereinafter referred to as the "Error"), from your point of view, what kind of role do you think the "Outline of the General Bibliography of the Four Libraries" (hereinafter referred to as the "Outline") has in our governance of learning?

A: The book "Synopsis" still has considerable academic value. After all, it is impossible to read through thousands of books, but by reading the Synopsis, we can understand the general situation of a book in the shortest time. You can find books that interest you, learn which books are more valuable, which books are in the past and which are behind. In this way, when studying a certain problem, you know where to find clues, and it will naturally be handy to study. This is also the case that Mr. Deng emphasized the importance of "catalog" in the "Four Keys", and bibliography is also an important foundation for reading and governing.

Speaking of "Fixing Error", there was no idea to write this book at first. I like to buy books, read books, when reading, we must compare the "Summary", find problems to make eyebrow criticism, so that the accumulation of less into more, and then sort it out, there are four libraries of abstracts to be mistaken twenty cases, thirty cases, published in the form of papers. Later, I published more, felt that it could be written into a book, and made some additions, and in 1990, "Fixing Error" was published. This was followed by substantial additions, with an updated edition published in 2005. In 2005, more than 200,000 new words were added, and when it was ready to expand to 700,000 to 800,000 words after a period of time, a multi-volume "Four Libraries Summary" was published.

Q: After talking to you so much, including looking at your articles and writings, I can see that you attach great importance to literature. Judging from your personal academic experience, what is the impact of the level of literature on the academic discipline?

A: Literature is the main material of our historical research, and I think that if we do not examine the data and do not distinguish the authenticity of the documents, the things written in this way are worthless, and in the end they will be eliminated. Therefore, first of all, we must consider the authenticity of a document. Secondly, different literature also has the problem of the size of the proof force. A key factor in the size of the proof force is the age of the document, that is, the question of the early and late age of the document formation. The "age" mentioned in Mr. Deng's "Four Keys" means this. But now many people have problems with the understanding of the word, "era" does not mean which era number is equivalent to which year AD, not this meaning! He refers to the distinction between primary and secondary and tertiary materials by identifying the age of the material formation. The first-hand material is generally credible, and the second- and third-hand materials need to pass the examination, distinguish the authenticity, and judge the size of the proof force before it can be used cautiously.

Q: From your experience, if there is a research path for historical research, what steps should be taken?

Answer: To study and engage in history, I think we must understand the evidence. I have a book called "Song Shi Kao Theory", why did I give it this name? It is precisely because our study of history requires both "examination" and "theory." We must first study the literature, and then solve historical problems through the literature. To study the literature is to distinguish the authenticity of the literature, and to distinguish the age sooner or later, it is necessary to use the method of examination. However, the examination of literature is only a starting point, and we are engaged in historical research to solve specific historical problems, and if we only "examine" and not "discuss", it is not a study of history, but a pure philology. When we look at the literature, in the final analysis, we must return to the question of history. Therefore, we need to read the literature with a sense of problems to find out the causes and consequences of an event.

Q: Paying attention to the evidence is a major feature of your study, can you talk specifically about how you understand the "evidence"?

A: To put it simply, to examine evidence is to de-falsify and store truth. Specifically, the first thing to do with the literature is to distinguish between authenticity and falsity. After determining that it is true, it is also necessary to consider the version problem, after copying and engraving, there will be some text errors that were not originally there, and it is necessary to proofread and identify errors to restore the original appearance. From a philological point of view, the task is basically completed. However, from the perspective of studying history, it is also necessary to examine the credibility of the contents of the records: those who have experienced, seen, and heard with their own hands are more reliable, and the reliability of hearsay is poor; the credibility of remembering contemporaneous events is higher, and the credibility of remembering the past events of a hundred years ago is worse. There may be several different accounts of the same thing, and it is necessary to find various evidences to discern the truth. The objects of examination - time, place, people, events, officials, etc. are different, and the specific methods are different. Just because you have examined one of these points, you should not think that you have mastered all the methods of examination.

Because many scholars have made a large number of references from the perspective of literature for thousands of years, people have a misunderstanding that the evidence is equal to the microscopic. This perception is incorrect.

Micro or macro refers to the perspective of observing the problem, and the evidence is the way to solve the problem, which are two different things and cannot be equated. Evidence can be used both microscopic and macroscopic.

Microscopic evidence can be divided into two categories: simple and complex. Most verbatim arguments are simple. Complex evidence, like cracking a case, needs to find various clues and try all kinds of ways to solve it, such as Liu Chang wrote the poem "Yang Invincible Temple", this temple was built by the Liao people to commemorate the Song general Yang Ye, which still exists and has special significance, I want to examine the specific time of his poem, accurate to the year, month and day, it is very difficult: there is only one known condition - the time when he was appointed as an emissary. Exactly when to leave, when to return to Beijing, when to pass through Gubeikou, I don't know. This requires looking for various clues, making detailed evidence, considering various possibilities, and then eliminating them one by one, until the time when he passed through Gubeikou is determined, and it is further determined whether it was written when he went or on the return trip. It was finally decided that the poem was written on the evening of November 7 of the second year of the reign (November 28, 1055 AD). The error of this conclusion will not be greater than one day. This is the complex evidence.

As for the macroscopic evidence, it means that we can solve big problems by looking at the big one by one, examining one small problem after another, and then systematically summarizing it. Mr. Chen Yinke's "Brief Discussion on the Sui and Tang Origin System" is a study of macroscopic evidence, and he compares the various systems of the Sui and Tang Dynasties with the previous systems of Northern Qi, Liang Chen, and Northern Zhou, and after examination, he draws the conclusion of the source of the system. This is the use of macro evidence.

I have been exploring different types of macro problems with evidence-based methods and have written some papers. For example, regarding the comparison of the national qualities of the Tang and Song dynasties, this is a very difficult problem, no one has ever studied it, and I tried to solve it, using the examination method. I started with the enlightenment readings, collected the Mongolian studies books written during the Tang and Song dynasties, examined the authors, writing ages, and contents of these books one by one, and then arranged them according to the writing age, and the characteristics of different periods were revealed. Whether it is from the quantity and quality of Mongolian books, or the level of Mongolian authors and the target audience, it shows that the Song received enlightenment education far more than the Tang, and extended from men to women, from general literacy to teaching encyclopedic knowledge. The Southern Song Dynasty was better than the Northern Song Dynasty, and even extended to the blind. He wrote "Annual Examination and Research of the Tang and Song Dynasties and Mongolian Studies" (The Third Series of Tang and Song Historical Reviews), Social Science Literature Publishing House, 2017). I also made a comparative study of the number of jinshi, the number of people taking the entrance examination, the change in the number of colleges, the change in regional distribution, etc., and further determined that the same characteristics were more obvious in terms of the intellectual population and the intellectual elite, that is, the Song was better than the Tang, and the Southern Song was better than the Northern Song. Therefore, combined with the essence of the above research on Mongolian studies, he wrote "On the Quality of the People of the Southern Song Dynasty Being Higher than that of the Tang Dynasty and the Northern Song Dynasty" (Journal of International Social Science (Chinese Edition), No. 3, 2016).

I think that some people who do macro research do not attach importance to the evidence, make a new point of view, put together a few pieces of material, and the article is written quickly, which looks imposing, but is prone to big and empty mistakes. If the reliability of these materials is found to be problematic, the whole article will suddenly collapse like a building built on the beach. Those who have always made micro-evidence may also try to apply it to solving macro-level problems in order to reveal the original appearance of history more correctly and more deeply.

I am now doing the examination in the hope of surpassing the Qianjia School and pushing the examination evidence to a new stage.

Question: You have discovered and sorted out the "Diary of Sima Guang", can you tell us about the discovery of "The Diary of Sima Guang" at that time?

A: At that time, I was on a study tour in Japan, and Yasuhiko Satake accompanied me to visit several of the larger libraries in Japan. When I arrived at the Cabinet Library, I asked to see the "Complete Works of Sima Wengong", because this book was not available in China, and I really did not know that there was "Sima Guang's Diary" in it before reading it. Mr. Deng Guangming had also come to the Cabinet Library before, but he did not see this book, and he lost it. When I got the book, I first looked at the catalog, and I was surprised to find that there were "Hand Records" and "Dilogies" in them. However, this book is a fragment, at that time, I did not dare to be sure that there was definitely one in the table of contents, so I quickly turned it back and found that the three volumes of the "Journal" were complete, and the "Hand Record" was stored in two volumes, and three volumes were missing. I was very happy and quickly copied it down. When I went back to study it, I concluded that this was Sima Guang's diary. One of the most important points is that Sima Guang and Han Wei are friends, and Han Wei's word is "holding the country", but because Sima Guang's father Sima Chi also has a "chi" character, the two pronunciations are the same, so every time Sima Guang mentions Han Wei is "Bingguo" instead of "holding the country", which is to avoid family secrets, others will not do this. Of course, there are also some other evidence in the "Diary", which can also prove that this is Sima Guang's own work. After the decision was determined, Yasuhiko Satake and I were very happy, and after the news spread, there was a sensation in Japan, and soon japanese reporters came to interview, and the news was published in the Japanese "Mainichi Shimbun" newspaper, and the Chinese media also made relevant reports.

03 Retreat without stopping, forge ahead

Q: You've been retired for a long time and have been working hard, can you talk about your current job status?

A: Although it is retired, it can be said that it is retired without rest. Studying the history of the Song Dynasty has always been my interest, and after retirement, I am more free, and it can be said that it is a golden age of my own research. After retirement, I have more time, and many of the research results I have accumulated hope to be published slowly.

What I am studying now is mainly two aspects: one is basic work, and the other is macro research. I have examined more than five hundred kinds of books in the Song Dynasty, each of which has been taken notes one after another, and the workload is relatively large, because the examination of these books must be carefully read, and problems will certainly be found. The problems found are mainly divided into two categories, one is the problem of the version, and the other is the problem of the wrong record itself. Issues with editions are mentioned in a few schoolbooks, but many books have not yet been addressed. The problem of its own misrepresentation will have to be slowly examined. By now, I've probably written more than a million and a half million words.

In addition to the above, I would now like to make a chronicle of the surviving Song Dynasty documents. Hundreds of thousands of words have been written one after another, but this work is more difficult. First, because many books do not have a preface, it is necessary to look at the contents of the book and other contents to prove it, and to speculate on his age through internal and external quotations. Second, at least three hundred or more books are still in the hands of various public and private collectors, most of which cannot be seen. I can only slowly classify and examine it according to a subset of the history of the scriptures.

Q: So is there any core issue in your current research?

A: Well, the core issues, I won't talk about them for the time being. Because there are many major issues to consider very mature. At my age, writing papers can not be unreliable, must have roots, I am more practical, always have to be responsible for academics, I do not seek short and fast.

Question: As a scholar of previous generations, what is your view on the current situation of Song history research? Are there any suggestions for young scholars?

Answer: The current song history team is unprecedentedly larger than in the past, and there are countless papers and works every year. The state now invests a lot in scientific research, and more and more data can be seen, coupled with the convenience of computer retrieval. In short, the current research conditions are much better than before. But unfortunately, there is not a top scholar like Mr. Deng. Mr. Chen Yinke called Mr. Deng "the first person in song history", and there is no such figure at the moment, so what is the reason? It's worth thinking about. Many of the current achievements are only quantity, not quality, and lack of time-tested heirlooms. Why has Mr. Chen Yinke's book become a classic, reprinted in one edition for decades? That's because of its quality. But most books don't do that now. Many scholars do not have a solid foundation, the "four keys" are not mastered on the random writing of articles, just the pursuit of short and fast, this is not to improve the academic level to work hard mentality, how can they contribute to academic progress?

Speaking of data, the study of historical materials in the Song historical circles is still relatively weak. It is reasonable to say that the current conditions are much better than in the past, a large number of books have been photocopied and published, you can also see a lot of books in the Four Libraries series, there are also a lot of reconstructed rare books, as well as the newly organized and published "Quan Song Wen", "Quan Song Poems", "Quan Song Ci" and "Quan Song Notes", etc., but everyone has not made good use of them. Now the gap in the research level of many people is reflected here, the historical materials do not carefully read, think, do not do research, take it and use it, use a modern computer to copy it, and the article will be written quickly. Our research and use of historical materials should be more refined. I have spent more than ten years studying the pre-Qin ancient script, because there are relatively few materials, so if you want to do research, you must pay attention to fine, and sometimes you can write an article by examining a word. If the study of song history can also be so exquisite, then the level can definitely be on a higher level.

There is also a problem, I think the current historiographical review is not very well done. Reviews should be able to objectively say the advantages and disadvantages of the book, and now the book reviews, almost all say good things, so how can they progress? Our academic research is supposed to advance in constant criticism. If we point out his problems well with a book, the author can listen with an open mind and improve it when it is republished, so that the book can be taken to a higher level. The best way to improve yourself is to listen to the criticism of others. In fact, in the process of criticizing others, it is also an improvement for the critics themselves. Because you need to study this book well, you can have a basis for evaluation, and only when you stand on a higher level than the author, or at least at the same level as the author, can you have practical criticism and suggestions. At present, it is a common phenomenon not to dare to put forward criticisms, and there are face problems here as well as practical interests, because the evaluation of titles and awards depends on whether there are good reviews. Affected by this mechanism, there has been a lack of pertinent comments so far, and a good atmosphere of comment has not been formed.

Q: Last question, do you think there are any regrets in your academic career?

A: For me, there are no regrets. I chose to study history entirely on the basis of my own interests, and no matter what twists and turns there were, I would keep going. As long as there is still a breath and my head is not confused, I will not put down the pen pole. I hope to make some new achievements on the basis of the research of my predecessors, which is my determination since the day I became a graduate student, and I have not forgotten it until now.

(Interviewed on May 10, 2021 at the Family College of Shaanxi Normal University)

(Interview with Hu Kun of Northwest University)

Text Source/Trends in Chinese Historical Research, No. 4, 2021

Editor-in-Charge/Weiwei Jiang

Review/A little bit