Introduction: On March 29, the Globalization Think Tank (CCG) invited Thomas Friedman, author of "The World is Flat", winner of the three-time Pulitzer Prize and columnist of the New York Times, to hold a dialogue with CCG Director Wang Huiyao to discuss in depth the new trends of globalization in the post-epidemic era, the dilemmas facing global governance, how to build trust between China and the United States, and how to view China's development achievements.
Wang Huiyao: Good evening, and good morning, welcome to the online conference held at the CCG Multimedia Center, and thank you very much to thomas friedman, the guest of our conversation today, and it is a great honor to welcome Thomas Friedman to the meeting.
Thomas Friedman: Thank you so much for inviting me.
Wang Huiyao: Thank you. Thomas, you are very famous and have become a symbol and symbol of globalization, because your book "The World is Flat" has been a bestseller in China for a long time and has influenced many people. In that book, you talk about globalization. You divide globalization into three levels: countries, companies, and individuals. At the national level, thousands of years of competition have leveled the world. Companies can basically play a good role. And now, in the Internet revolution of 2000, we have individuals. But today we also see more challenges to globalization, such as anti-globalization and populism. What are your thoughts on globalization? How should we view the new trends led by globalization?
Thomas Friedman: This question is a good starting point. Whenever I host a webinar like this, people's first question is often: Is the world still flat? I always start with a smile because I say, wait a minute, I'm sitting in my office in Maryland and my friend Hui Yao is sitting in his office in Beijing. We sit at opposite ends of the office as two individuals and have a conversation, is the world still flat? The world is flatter than before. Hui Yao, when I wrote "The World is Flat" in 2004, Facebook didn't exist, Twitter was still a voice, "cloud" was still in the sky, 4G was like a parking lot, big data was a rap star, Skype was a typographical error.
All of this came up after I wrote The World Is Flat, so today's world is actually flatter than ever. We've never connected different nodes as well as we do today, and never connected as smoothly as we do today, speeding up connections between those nodes. But we also did the third thing. In fact, we have removed a lot of buffers that hinder flow between these nodes.
Think about it, from December 2019 to March 2020, just when the new crown virus appeared, there were 3,200 direct flights from China to the United States, and 50 direct flights from Wuhan to the United States, and most Americans had never even heard of Wuhan. Think about what happened on the Suez Canal today. A ship is trapped on the Suez Canal, and a company in Europe is waiting for supplies from China because of the need for timely deliveries to replenish inventory. But when we remove the obstruction, the system gets faster and faster.
The container ship "Changzhi" ran aground in the Suez Canal (Source: The Paper)
The world is not just flat, it is fragile. Because when you connect so many nodes and then speed up the connection between those nodes, but unbuffer, you become vulnerable because now I can pass instability from my node to your node faster than ever. Yes, ever since I wrote The World Is Flat, a lot of people say it's not flat, it's pointed, it's bumpy, it's curved, it's bumpy. All these books are wrong, and the world is smoother than ever.
Wang Huiyao: Thomas, I think what you said is completely correct. I think globalization is accelerating to some extent as technology evolves, as we get more involved. And then there's the flow of capital, goods, and talent, all of which are actually getting faster than before. What do you think the future holds? Are we seeing new trends? The digital economy is coming.
Also, as you said, before the outbreak, there was a lot of people moving across the Pacific between China and the United States. We have 400,000 Chinese students in the United States and 3 million tourists. Before the epidemic, China's outbound tourism reached 150 million. 10 million people went to Japan, 10 million people went to Thailand, and 3 million people went to the United States. What will we see in the future?
Thomas Friedman: The book I'm writing right now, if I name it — but it doesn't have a name yet — it's "The World Is Not Just Flat." The world is fast, integrated, deep, and open. Let's look at these four words. When I say the world is fast, I mean that there has been a change in the rate of change, so the speed of technological change is getting faster and faster, and with the advancement of chip and communication technology, the world is moving very fast.
Second, the world is not just flat, it is integrated. We are not just interconnected, we are interdependent. A boat was trapped in the Suez Canal with something I was waiting for. Huiyao in Beijing has also been affected. We're not just connected, we're all in this together. We are also integrated by climate. What the U.S. does about the climate affects Canada, What China does could affect Thailand, and the way Australia handles forest fires affects New Zealand. So we're fused with technology and climate.
Third, the world is becoming deeper and deeper. Profound is the most important word of this era. Because what we're doing now is putting monitoring equipment everywhere. The world has been talking to us for thousands of years, and we just can't hear it. IBM did a study a few years ago where they occupied a lake in New York State, and they put sensors on the surface of the lake, at the bottom of the lake, from one side of the lake to the other. The lake is right there and as beautiful as when we were driving through. Suddenly, the lake started talking, and began to tell what was happening at the bottom, what was happening in the middle, what was happening on the next layer, there were fish, there was fun, there were all kinds of things. We'll imagine. Now we have a deep understanding of this. We had to create new words to describe our profound state, our profound thoughts, our profound medicine, our profound research, our profound disguises, to describe the facts that penetrated deep within me.
I can sit in Washington, and I can view public satellite images of different parts of China from Google Earth and The European Space Satellite. I might be able to find your office and see if you can come to work. I can also see Xinjiang. In addition, Chinese can see Minneapolis, my hometown. So the world is getting deeper and deeper.
Finally, it becomes very open. Every citizen is now a paparazzi, a filmmaker, a journalist, a publisher, with no editors and no filters. A citizen of my hometown of Minneapolis took a picture of a police officer with his knee pressed against the neck of a man named George Floyd. Someone snapped it on a cell phone, and The name of George Freud spread around the world. In China, people know the name George Freud because one can tell the story in an open world. The same is true of China. We've seen it in Hong Kong and we've seen it in other regions. So the world is becoming fast, integrated, deep and open. This is the challenge facing the central government today. How do you rule the world? This is a fast, integrated, deep and open world. This is the challenge we face.
Wang Huiyao: Yes, very good. Thomas, you're thinking about something deeper, more open, faster right now, which could be the next phase of globalization. I think it's no longer flat, we have more layers now. I think you raise a very profound question. With the rapid changes in the world, our system is based on centuries and on the Bretton Woods system after World War II. Are we good enough to meet all these new challenges? The world has really become so engaging and changeable that the governance system needs to respond.
We've seen this COVID-19 pandemic that has caused so many casualties to the world, we've gone through World War I, We've had World War II, and after World War II, we've got a new world system, and now we've got COVID-19, and I think that presents a huge challenge for how we respect nature. Will we have more buffers? Like you said last time at our November meeting. We went through SARS, and then we went through COVID-19. If we don't respect the climate, what's next? I am pleased to see president Biden sign a presidential decree to return to the Paris Agreement since taking office. You also interviewed President Joe Biden before he took office. So what do you think of the buffer we're re-establishing? Will we lose our buffer zone because of the backwardness of global governance?
Thomas Friedman: When the world becomes so fast, integrated, deep and open, there is only one way to govern it effectively, whether at the national level, at the local level or at the international level. This is what I call complex, adaptive alliances. I actually got the word out of nature. So I think it's a fast, integrated, deep and open world. It's like climate upheaval, our climate is undergoing tremendous changes, not just in climate, but in technology and globalized.
In nature, when an ecosystem experiences climate change, the ecosystem becomes prosperous and then survives. They have complex, adaptive networks. We are part of this network of systems, promoting their resilience and maximizing propulsion, which is their ability to move forward. The same is true of the world.
When the world becomes so fast, integrated, deep and open, the only way we can effectively govern it is to build a global complex adaptive alliance that can manage climate change. Unless the United States, China, and Europe, especially the large economies of India, Japan, and South Korea, all work together, this will not be possible. Who can manage global trade? Now, unless all the big economies work together, only complex adaptive alliances can effectively play to the world's strengths and act as a buffer.
The problem is that when complex adaptive coalitions are needed, governments become more nationalistic. The Chinese government is becoming increasingly nationalistic. Under former U.S. President Donald Trump, the United States has become more nationalistic, Russia has become more nationalistic, and Britain has become more nationalistic. Many countries are becoming increasingly nationalistic. The world is battling this trend when we need global alliances more than ever, even within countries, within companies, within political parties, and when they need to be more open and cooperative.
On August 31, 2020, local time, Trump said at a press conference that the recent violent riots in various cities in the United States are the evil consequences of the spread of left-wing ideas in schools, making young people "think that the United States is an evil country full of racism" and advocating the restoration of patriotic education in schools (Observer Network video screenshot)
Wang Huiyao: Yes, I think you are right. I think that global governance really seems to be lagging behind global practice, or behind globalization.
Thomas Friedman: But the problem is that there is now a whole set of issues that can only be effectively addressed through global governance, such as networks, capital flows, trade, climate, labor mobility, which require global governance, but no global government. What do we do when we need global governance, but there is no global government? It gets worse when the two largest countries, the United States and China, begin to struggle in the middle.
When China makes "deep products," differences in political systems and values become important
Wang Huiyao: Exactly. I think that's a challenge for all of us. You are right. There is a lack of global governance because there is no global government. We lived through the Second World War, and the post-war world system clock established the United Nations, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the World Trade Organization. China was the first signatory to the UN Charter, and we have gone through 75 years. But that's not enough, especially in the context of globalization, where, like you just said, is getting faster and faster. China is in the midst of globalization, and this year it has been 40 years since Kissinger's secret visit to China, and in the 20 years since China joined the WTO, China's GDP has increased by 10 to 12 times. Then China became prosperous, China embraced globalization, China lifted 800 million people out of poverty, and so on.
But China is also often blamed by Western countries. One reason I'm thinking about it is that I read your January 26 article in the New York Times, socialism in America is for the rich, capitalism is for everyone else. I saw a national number that surprised me that 10 percent of Americans own more than 80 percent of stocks, and their wealth has more than tripled in 30 years. The incomes of the people at the bottom have not increased. China was able to export and keep inflation low in the United States. But every country has its own problems, and China must solve its own problems. Especially in the Trump era, the United States blamed China for this widening gap. The reason why China has lifted 800 million people out of poverty is actually to avoid extreme poverty. Maybe you're right, we need some global consensus, or a new global narrative. What do you think?
Thomas Friedman: The U.S.-China relationship, let's talk about this because it's very complicated. Because you mentioned the anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and the United States, I think the 40 years from 1979 to 2019 are a new era in Sino-US relations. Unfortunately, this era is over. What was that era? It was a period I called unconscious fusion. Unconscious, not because we didn't think about it, but because it was easy in a sense.
As an American company, it can be said that I want to build a supply chain in China. As an American parent, I want my son or daughter to go to college in China to learn Mandarin. As an employer you might say, I want to hire the best Chinese technicians or Chinese students living in the United States. From a Chinese perspective, I can say that I want my company to go public on nasdaq, I want to have an American partner, and I want my children to go to school in the United States.
In these 40 years, China and the United States have become one country, two systems, to some extent. We really blended together. Unfortunately, that era is over. Why is it over? I'm going to go back to the word "depth" because for most of those 40 years, like the 30 years of those 40 years, most of the things That China sold us were shallow goods, the clothes we wore on our bodies, the shoes we wore on our feet, the solar panels on the roof... I call these primary products. We have deep products, like computers, software, and that might be in ccg's office. American computer software, right in your office, right in your home, maybe in your phone. We sell you deep products, and most of the products you sell us are shallow products.
When China only sells us shallow products, politically we don't care whether China is authoritarian, communist, liberal or vegetarian. That doesn't matter because you're just selling us shallow products. But China has been able to make deep products over the past 10 years on its own technological developments. Huawei and 5G are very good deep products. You come to the United States and say we're going to sell deep products, just like you sell deep products. We want to sell Huawei to Thomas Friedman. When you're just peddling shallow products to us, we don't care about your political system at all. But if you want to sell me deep products, if you want me to answer the phone with Huawei, the difference in values is important. That is the crux of the lack of trust between our two countries, the lack of mutual trust. China's core value is collective stability. Therefore, if the collective is progressing, if more people are lifted out of poverty, this is a core value of China.
It is important that teams of foreign journalists can enter Xinjiang to come up with independent answers
Thomas Friedman: That's a good idea. People say to me that if you're going to a webinar in China, they're going to censor you. I said, no, I'll mention Xinjiang and Hong Kong, and no one will censor me. In fact, we are having a very valuable conversation because you have informed me of China's views and I have informed you of the concerns of the United States. It is important to have respectful talks.
You have your point of view, which, in my opinion, is not unreasonable. Your views on poverty alleviation and stability maintenance are very important. When I asked questions about how a certain culture was treated in Xinjiang or about Democracy in Hong Kong, you listened carefully to my views. Maybe when you go back, you will say that what Friedman said makes sense, maybe I will say that hui yao makes sense when I go back. Because we have this respectful dialogue, maybe I'll tell you that it would be helpful if China did that in Hong Kong or Xinjiang. You might also say, Friedman, that it would be helpful if the United States were talking about or treating China.
Then, maybe we start to build mutual trust, and the two sides take steps to cool down the U.S.-China relationship. Sadly, what happened in Alaska was a two-sided debate and quarrel that made everyone angry. So I want to say that I appreciate and respect this talk that you have hosted. I hope we can broaden this channel, because these are legitimate concerns held by the United States and the West, and I am worried that we have not even heard of those legitimate concerns. I don't want that to happen, but I'm afraid we're going to end up with something like boycotting the 2022 Winter Olympics, and then the whole U.S.-China relationship will break down.
That's why I think it's important to have talks, where China said, I heard what the United States thinks and will take measures, and the United States also said that I heard What China thinks and will take measures. Then, in this world of fusion, we found a way forward together, and as my friend Graham Allison has always said, we can now guarantee the destruction of each other. China and the United States can destroy each other, as well as the world economy and the global climate. So we are destined to cooperate. What bothers me now is that we don't have the kind of frank and respectful talks we need, and when we leave the talks, we know what to do next.
I heard that Friedman talked about the Uyghurs and the situation in Hong Kong, and I don't agree with what he said, but I will still find a way to do something. Then I said, I heard What Hui Yao said — China has helped 800 million people get out of poverty. Do you know how stable the world has become because of China's efforts? That's a big deal.
I will work on your concerns. We need to return to dialogue because I want to return to my central point – that the 40 years of 1979-2019 will be seen as a golden age of relative global prosperity and peace, with China and the United States at its core. If you undermine this core, the day will come for your diplomats to criticize me or the United States, or the days for our diplomats to criticize China. But if we don't seek ways to cooperate with China and the United States, the world will be in a precarious situation year after year.
Wang Huiyao: Yes, I think that as the two largest economies in the world, we have a moral responsibility and obligation to cooperate. I agree with you that journalism should be restarted, so should U.S. consulates, and we should strengthen communication. There are 400,000 Chinese students studying in the United States while only 10,000 students in the United States are in China. I hope we can attract more American students to China.
You're right, we can have more communication at the social and civic level. You talk about Xinjiang and Hong Kong, and we always hear from the international community that we have 1-3 million people locked up here, but we really don't know where this news comes from. What is the source of this data? Many of the buildings in Xinjiang they see from satellite are empty. And then there's the fact that they simply can't prove that 1-3 million people are being held there. In fact, last year, the government said in the white paper that people in Xinjiang are all receiving education.
Therefore, the Spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry welcomes foreign envoys and journalists to carry out more dialogues and exchanges. We should communicate with each other instead of just talking to each other. The same is true of the Hong Kong issue. Now, the situation in Hong Kong is no longer turbulent, and the US Capitol Hill has stabilized. We really need a lot of dialogue on these issues, and we also need to encourage journalists on both sides to promote the dialogue.
Thomas Friedman: I think that's very important. From my point of view, if the Team of New York Times reporters can get into Xinjiang and let them walk around, see and write, then we can come up with independent answers. I think that's very important. The same is true from China's perspective, wherever you want to go to the United States should not be restricted.
Wang Huiyao: Yes, I think this is a very good idea. It can be open, and I think openness is really a good way to solve all these problems. You also mentioned "decoupling", which I think is very difficult to "decouple". When you mention Huawei, you say maybe we should let Huawei experiment in the United States so that we can build trust. The building of trust between us should be restarted during the Biden administration.
The deeper the economic dependence between China and the United States, the more politics will follow this trend
Thomas Friedman: I think you're absolutely right, because if we get into a "tech cold war," I think it might not be that bad for the world, but it would hurt the United States. If there is a technology ecosystem in Both China and the United States, I dare not say that most countries in the world will make the decision to join the US technology ecosystem out of technical or economic considerations. So I don't think that's a good thing.
I think the best thing about the world is interdependence. I hope that China can rely on Intel's chips, and I think there is no problem for the United States to rely on China's supply chain. I think the more dependent we are, the more politics will follow this trend.
Like I said before, I've been visiting China since 1989. China is much more open now than it was thirty or forty years ago, but it is more closed than it was five or six years ago. But I also believe that with the development of China, the middle class will grow stronger and stronger, and people will not only get rid of poverty, but also enter the middle class, which is the development trend of China.
How many Chinese tourists travel abroad every year? There are tens of millions of them every year. So people sometimes say to me, "Friedman, you say China has become more open, but it has been more closed in the last five or six years." I said, "Who would dare to say that 2021 is the end of history?" The pace of development of countries is different, like three steps forward and half a step back. I believe that China's development is not only to get rid of poverty, but also to strengthen the middle class, the middle class will travel abroad, will hope that international students to study around the world. The trend of China's opening up will continue. So we should be confident about that. I think the deeper we merge, the more things will happen. But now trust is the core issue.
Greater efforts by China and the United States will change the trend of Sino-US relations today
Thomas Friedman: One of the questions I often ask myself is, "Why are we fighting?" "Yes, it's not an ideological issue, because in many ways China is already more capitalized than the United States. Does China want to take over San Francisco's Chinatown? I don't think so. I'm not even sure why we're fighting. Does the United States want to occupy Shanghai or Nanjing? I also don't think so. I don't even know what we're fighting. In the deepest sense, China and the United States have a conflict of values.
Obviously, China and the United States are two influential powers, but all this should be controllable. This does require the joint efforts of both China and the United States, which is very important. Building trust on Xinjiang or Hong Kong will be difficult for China. Building trust on issues like Huawei is also difficult for the West.
Americans can do a test, for example, you can install 5G in Texas, and we'll see how you do. If you behave well and comply with our laws, you can go to Oklahoma (to do Business with Huawei). China and the United States have attracted each other's attention. Now, we both need to make efforts, which is not easy, but difficult. When China makes efforts on Hong Kong and Xinjiang, it will attract the attention of the United States. When the United States makes efforts on issues such as Huawei, it will attract China's attention. That is the basis on which we can build mutual trust.
At present, neither China nor the United States has made an effort, because for the United States, it is now politically difficult to get Huawei into the US market, which will be a challenge. It will also be difficult for China to take the steps we have been talking about on Xinjiang and Hong Kong, but if both sides make an effort now, it will build strong mutual trust and will be the key to truly changing the direction of the U.S.-China relationship today.
Wang Huiyao: I think the confidence-building and confidence you mentioned is undoubtedly important. You get to the heart of the matter: "Why are we fighting?" "When the two countries are so closely linked, what is the point of fighting? The U.S.-China Business Council recently released a report saying that the trade war has caused the US GDP to fall by 0.5%, losing between 200,000 and 300,000 jobs. In fact, many Western auto companies sell more cars in China than in their own countries. Despite the spread of covid-19 around the world, Tesla is still fully operational in China and is very profitable. In addition, Walmart has purchased many goods from China, which is also Apple's second largest global market after the United States. That's why China and the United States are so intertwined.
Thomas Friedman: Yes, for me, China is the second largest book market. Except for the United States, my "The World is Flat" has sold more sales in China than in other countries. So, I understand the benefits of U.S.-China integration. We need to address serious trade and equity issues, but we cannot take the form of the Alaska talks and take really strong measures on issues such as trade. This is what can really change the dynamics of the relationship.
Wang Huiyao: Right. I found that at the Munich Security Conference, President Biden didn't mention competitors, but talked about competition. China and the United States do not seek confrontation, and China has always emphasized peaceful coexistence.
Thomas Friedman: I must point out that President Xi Jinping and President Biden have a personal friendship, which is very rare. In fact, while they were both vice presidents/vice presidents, I had the privilege of meeting their friendships at a State Department luncheon. We cannot afford to waste such personal relationships.
China and the United States should have more dialogue and cooperation on climate change and infrastructure construction
Wang Huiyao: That's right. President Biden's summit on climate issues on World Earth Day next month has invited many leaders. We hope that President Xi will also attend so that the two leaders have the opportunity to have another dialogue. I think we need the impetus to help re-engage in good dialogue. I have noticed that the Ford Foundation and many U.S. foundations have initiated the Sino-American Scholar Exchange Program. We hope that the Fulbright Scholars Program will continue, that the U.S. Consulate in Chengdu can be revived, and that student exchange programs can be restarted. There is something new in the Biden administration, where they are no longer looking for the Stubble of the Chinese Communist Party every day and have become more pragmatic. They also stopped arresting, accusing multiple people of espionage, or calling them spies.
As you said, both China and the United States need to do a lot of work. If we have shared values, such as the prosperity of the world, we can abandon certain old-fashioned ideas and focus on reality, focusing on efficiency and effectiveness. I've noticed that there may be two kinds of consensus in the U.S. Congress, one about China and the other about infrastructure. The U.S. needs to transform its infrastructure, and in this regard, China leads the world – the longest high-speed rail network, 80% of the longest bridges are built in China. So maybe China and the United States can cooperate. You just talked about Texas, where the price of U.S. energy exporting from the interior to China is twice as high as exporting energy from the coast to China because Texas doesn't have enough infrastructure.
On March 31, local time, US President Biden submitted a $2 trillion infrastructure development plan, which he claimed would give the United States the ability to win global competition with China in the coming years (Observer Network video screenshot)
Therefore, it may be a good idea for the United States and China to work together on infrastructure. Maybe we can elevate the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to the World Infrastructure Investment Bank, and have the United States and Japan, two countries that are not participating, join, and that's where we can work together. After the 75th anniversary of the founding of the United Nations, after the global fight against the epidemic, we can add new strength to global governance. The new mechanism can maintain world peace and stability, not a lack of governance, a fight between countries, then we are really far from war. Graham Allison is right that if we don't act cautiously, we will be in great danger of mutual destruction.
So, how can we improve U.S.-China relations? I think opinion leaders like you are excellent. Your recent article in the New York Times column, "China No Longer Respects the United States, They Have Reasons to Do So," has garnered a lot of attention. But I would like to ask, if our approach is not suitable for China, how can China achieve such outstanding results? Of course, globalization is a factor, but China has a history of five thousand years and has its own culture. In Chinese society, for example, people are willing to sacrifice individual freedom to a certain extent in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. So, we have some slight differences in culture rather than ideology, and when we find differences, we may need to be more careful.
Thomas Friedman: For me, 90 percent of U.S. policy is about making America stronger. That is, if we invest in our own infrastructure, education, government-funded research, and take advantage of immigration, one of our biggest advantages over other countries is that we can attract the best talent in the world to the United States, including Chinese talent.
So, we need to act, and I believe we have legitimate issues such as moral, diplomatic, and ethical issues. We may raise questions about tensions in Hong Kong and Xinjiang, but we must act in unison at home. That's what I wrote in that article. China has a path to success, and we have a path to success, but we have deviated from it. If we're the most dynamic, attractive economies and societies in the world, that's the best policy for me, because people see us and say, "We want more of this." ”
I've received a lot of criticism because I pointed out how well China is doing in education, infrastructure and science. People say, "Friedman, you love China. "In fact, I am not thinking about China, but the United States. Frankly, I'm trying to use China's successes in infrastructure, education, science, and poverty alleviation to inspire and challenge the United States.
Why did we build a highway system during the Cold War? Because we believe that the Cold War needs it. Why are we competing to land on the moon? Because we think it's necessary to compete with the Soviet Union. To be honest, when we don't have challengers abroad, we get a little lazy at home and want to settle down, as I said in my article. So I'm not ashamed to talk about China's success and tell Americans that if we don't get back on our path to success, China will lead the world and become the most powerful country in the world. So that's my unapologetic strategy for pointing out that China is succeeding. I don't want China to fail. I think the world will be a better place if China and the United States win together. The best example is the strongest human rights, economic, and foreign policy, and believe me, the world will respond.
Wang Huiyao: That was very exciting. You mentioned that one of America's core strengths is to attract talent. Perhaps the Biden administration will do more here, such as welcoming foreign students. Graham Allison has told me that the U.S. is picking talent from 7 billion people, and China is picking talent from 1.3 billion people, so we do have a lot of places to learn from the U.S., perhaps to attract more American students to China. You are absolutely right, and that will really increase understanding and mutual trust between China and the United States, because we feel that not many people know About China in the United States. You are the exception because you know so much about China and we hope to have more of these conversations.
You're absolutely right. China and the United States are the two largest countries in the world and must work together. We want to compete peacefully, not confrontation. We have differences, but let's work together to build a more transparent mechanism for competition rules, for example, we can reform the World Trade Organization (WTO) together, and in fact, the Globalization Think Tank (CCG) is also advancing the idea of China's accession to the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). China's leaders said we are willing to consider joining the U.S.-designed CPTPP, a high standard of trade practice, and our consideration is positive. Therefore, instead of competing on trade and tariffs, multilateral forums and investment treaties, such as bilateral investment treaties with the United States, should be used.
China and the United States need to make a new second impression on each other
Thomas Friedman: I've visited your think tank many times and I've always thanked you for providing me with the form of open dialogue. What I say is what I think. I have benefited from your conversations, and you have been very frank in defending your system, and so have I.
That's exactly what I want to convey. You only have one chance to make a second impression. Not a first impression – you only have one chance to make a second impression. China and the United States really need to make a second impression on each other now. Both sides need to give each other a whole new second image. I think that's only going to happen when both sides have put in a certain amount of effort and people say, wow, it's hard for both China and the United States to do.
We need to get the other person's attention. This is very important and I would like to inform this friendly advice. You don't want to be seen as a hegemon. Nobody likes bullying, you know how I know — because nobody likes America. After the Cold War, we thought of ourselves as superpowers, could go anywhere, let countries do anything, they thought we were a hegemon, no one liked hegemony. When people see that you've made an effort, people favor and are willing to respond. We need to do that, and China needs to do that, so that we can all make a second impression on each other.
Wang Huiyao: Of course, there is a better way to tell the Chinese story well. I am pleased to hear that U.S. Secretary of State Blinken has said that the United States is no longer above any government. Now that the world is more peaceful, China and the United States need each other to maintain global stability.
Thomas Friedman: I think what happened in Alaska is a necessary act for both China and the United States to articulate their concerns. Both sides need to articulate their concerns. Joe Biden is a good president, he acts steadily, unlike Trump. He is a partner capable of serious dialogue. For now, I still hope that the two sides will speak from their hearts so that they can sit down and have such frank and respectful talks as you and I do, and at the same time we agree to make some efforts to push the relationship to the point where it is needed.
Wang Huiyao: Yes, we need to clarify our concerns so that we can have calm and friendly communication afterwards. Today we have 800,000 viewers watching our live streams simultaneously through several channels. We have a couple of questions from the Chinese media here. First, China Radio International asked: "Last year you wrote an open letter to US President Donald Trump, emphasizing the need to take the lead in fighting the epidemic in a more planned way, while making some suggestions. If you could interview Biden, what new proposal would you come up with? ”
Thomas Friedman: I think the U.S. is doing a pretty good job right now, with basically two million people vaccinated. By June or July, we will be through the worst of times. We still need to continue our efforts to build consensus on the prevention and control of future global pandemics.
On March 25, local time, US President Biden announced the goal of new crown vaccination at his first presidential press conference after taking office: to complete 200 million doses of vaccination within 100 days of his taking office (Observer Network video screenshot)
Both SARS and COVID-19 appeared at the junction of urban and rural areas. Basically, these viruses were introduced to the city's markets from the bodies of wild animals. As we continue to urbanize as we develop, the wilderness will become smaller and smaller, such as deforestation in Brazil. We need a global discussion of these junctions, about urbanization, deforestation, wilderness areas and wildlife. In this way, we will not spread the virus that emerged during deforestation and urbanization to human settlements and thus to the globalized system.
I know China is concerned about this issue, and it is also taking action to restrict the sale of seafood markets and certain wild animals. Together, we find the source of the coronavirus, the source of Ebola, which is very important. We should ensure that there is a global mechanism that can interrupt the spread of the virus. So we really need to start a global dialogue that includes China, the United States, African countries, European countries, and so on. But it is important that China and the United States promote dialogue.
China can become an important force in promoting the re-signing of the JCPOA
Wang Huiyao: We still have a problem with the Observer Network. Observer.com is a Shanghai-based media outlet: "Foreign Minister Wang Yi has recently received a lot of attention for his shuttle diplomacy in the Middle East. In addition to friendly exchanges with Saudi Arabia and Iran, Minister Wang also invited Palestine and Israel to conduct direct dialogue in China. Mr. Friedman, you have been following the Palestinian-Israeli peace process for a long time. How do you see the current situation in the Middle East and China's role in it? "You are an expert in this area and also have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies from Oxford University.
Thomas Friedman: That's a good question. Iran cannot reach a nuclear deal without China's help. China, Russia and the European Union play an important role in promoting the signing of the nuclear deal. President Trump tore up the agreement, which is very unwise. He tore up the deal because of Iran's misconduct in the region. I believe that this is the source of instability, not for Israel, but for Lebanon, Iraq and Syria. I hope that as engagement in the region increases, China will focus on regional stability, not just how to balance the United States.
So when China and Iran signed a crude oil purchase agreement, was China using the opportunity to pull Iran back to the nuclear deal? Or is China using the deal to balance the United States? This is very important because China also has interests in regional stability. Nor is It good for China for Iran to become a nuclear power. China does not want to see nuclear proliferation now and will not want to see in the future. That's why China supports the nuclear deal. So I hope that if China is to get more involved in the Middle East, then China can focus more on regional stability and push Iran to sign a nuclear deal instead of getting Iran farther and farther away from a nuclear deal.
I want to reiterate that, to be fair, it is not China but the United States, and it is Trump who tore up the nuclear deal. But I think China can be an important force in helping us re-sign the nuclear deal. I hope that China can use its own strength to push things in this direction.
Wang Huiyao: Yes. China and the United States should cooperate for the public on the Middle East issue, while playing a more active role in the North Korean issue and the North Korean peace process.
The final question is about globalization, from China Reviews News: "Given the impact of the pandemic, many countries around the world have had to cut ties with the outside world, and many companies and institutions are in serious trouble. Do you think the pandemic has led to a slowdown in the globalization process, or can globalization have a new start after the pandemic? ”
Thomas Friedman: That's a good question, a good ending point. I think we are on the brink of a big explosion of globalization because of the pandemic. Before the pandemic, McKinsey & Company estimated that 20 percent of U.S. companies were moving toward digital transformation. After the pandemic, many companies have gone digital. For example, the CCG organized the event, you changed the forum to online. Now, you and I are having a global conversation in our personal capacity, which is easier, cheaper and more efficient than before. Although this is not as good as I sit in your conference room in person, it is ninety percent better.
When I was in your conference room, we only had a few people in the conference room, but now we are facing 800,000 people all over China. So you see, the fact is that the pandemic is that we're having to digitize a lot of things, and that's also allowing us to collaborate globally in more ways, like telemedicine, teleedoedomy and telemedicine, which is going to give rise to a new combination. So the next time we meet, it may be through Zoom, or in your Beijing office, or in your Beijing office. I think when it's all over, we'll have more access to globalization. But the world will continue to grow from large to small, from medium to small. Thanks to the pandemic, it's all happening in a much bigger way.
(CcG Authorized Observer Network Published)
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