Source of this article: Wen Wei Po Transferred from: Must-Remember
Star specimen ⭐ public number, wonderful information do not miss!
In January 2017, Professor Dai Yan of Fudan University compiled 11 interviews with Chinese and foreign scholars over the past ten years into a book, which was published by Zhonghua Book Company under the title of "Zhibi Jingshan". In the preface, she explains the title of the book, which is taken from the sentence in the Book of Songs, Shang Song, Yin Wu: "陟Bijingshan, Songbai Pill Pill." It is to break or move, and to cut is to be pious. There is a hakama in the pine tree, and there is leisure in the travel tree, and the sleep becomes Kong'an. It means to climb the mountain, see the stout and straight pines and cypresses, cut them down, carry them down, and build a temple to worship the ancestors. The borrowing of the title of "Zhibi Jingshan" is to express the academic inheritance and respect for the predecessors of scholars. The senior scholars interviewed in the book include He Zhaowu, Li Xueqin, Zhang Peiheng, Wang Shuizhao, Qiu Xigui, Zhu Weizheng, Lu Gusun, Zhang Xingang, Xing Shanhong, Kawai Yasuzo, Jin Wenjing, etc. In Dai Yan's view, as professional scholars, they have been studying China for a long time, caring about China, and have "done a lot of things diligently" in their respective academic fields, and although they abide by their duties as scholars and rarely speak on public affairs, they actually have a strong sense of social responsibility and humanistic care.
Wen Wei Po: The book "Zhibi Jingshan" includes interviews with 11 scholars, recording many of their academic experiences and thoughts. These scholars have their own important books and papers, and readers can learn about their academic careers through their own articles, so why do this series of interviews that focus on scholarship and are not limited to academics?
Dai Yan: Originally, I shouldn't have come to show up, it's like the matchmaker robbing Cui Yingying and Zhang Sheng. I want you to be clear at the outset: the protagonists of this book are the 11 senior scholars we had the honor to interview, and I am just a "trickster".
Of course, I often think that the society always talks about the protection of cultural heritage, both tangible and intangible, so what about these scholars, the work they do and even themselves, isn't it important culture? Should it also be protected? At the very least, it's a record.
Like Mr. Ho Siu-mo, we know that he translated so many important Western classics. Since the 1950s, he has translated Rousseau, and he has translated many of Rousseau's works, such as The Social Contract. He also translated Kant, Pascal, and later Collingwood, among others. These are certainly extremely important cultural achievements.
Like Mr. Lu Gusun ("Must-Remember" note: passed away in 2016), he is a Shakespeare researcher, and his own research and most talked about in class is probably Shakespeare, but we have not heard him teach Shakespeare, many people must have used his "English-Chinese Dictionary" and "Chinese-Chinese English Dictionary". In the era of the Internet and globalization, I don't know if people will need to spend so much energy to compile such dictionaries and translations in the future, but the work done by mortals is unlikely to be copied, so Mr. He's translation and Mr. Lu's dictionary are still irreplaceable, and there is their spirit in them.
Mr. Ho Siu Mo
Of the scholars we visited, Mr. Ho was the oldest, in his 90s, and the youngest, the others, are now retired.
It is no exaggeration to say that the long era they have experienced has become a part of history, and the books they have published and their teaching experience have also condensed into a very precious culture.
Scholars usually do their studies in the study, and time is precious, and it is unlikely that they will come out to walk the catwalk like stars. How can we let more people know about these academic researchers, and let people in other professions and young people in society know that the work of scholars is part of the so-called "culture", and that scholars themselves are cultural people? I happened to have a chance to do a trick, so I did these interviews and recorded them to share with you.
I used to read "Mr. Hu Shizhi's Conversation in His Later Years" compiled by Hu Songping, and I was very impressed. He was Hu Shi's secretary in his later years, recording Hu Shi's speeches day by day. There is almost no presence of him in the interview, only Hu Shi's words and deeds. I admire such a recorder, so please pay attention to the 11 scholars in the book, the important thing is them, they are the protagonists.
Wen Wei Po: The interviews in the book span a large period of time, the earliest was in the 90s of the last century, and the latest should be in 2015. Is this a review of the interviewee's transcript?
Dai Yan: These interviews were originally published in different magazines, and I would like to thank my old friends from Chung Hwa Book Company for suggesting that I compile them into an episode and publish them, so that I can have a summary of my work over the years.
From the first interview to the last one, it has been more than ten years. What makes me a little sentimental is that among them, Zhang Peiheng, Zhu Weizheng, and Lu Gusun of Fudan University, whom I visited, have all passed away one after another.
Mr. Lu died suddenly while I was looking at the proof, and I told him that the publisher wanted a recent photo of him to be printed in the book, and he sent it to me, and he left two days later. We have never had the opportunity to hear the conversations of these gentlemen again, but in this book, their views on some issues have been left, so the publication of this book can also be said to be a memorial to them.
Professor Zhang Peiheng
To be honest, I didn't think our interviews with these scholars were that important, because it was actually them who they mattered, not what we did. But Mr. Lu's sudden death changed my mind somewhat. Once a scholar passes away, although their academic research results are still there, they will be transformed into "cultural heritage", but as cultural people, they do not exist as individuals.
We often say "culture" and "culture", which is sometimes empty, but in fact, culture should be composed of such individuals, and scholars create culture and are also carriers of culture. So, I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to you to take a little more of the way to document our scholars and to preserve this kind of culture or cultural heritage.
Wen Wei Po: Most of the people you interviewed were scholars in the humanities?
Dai Yan: This probably has something to do with my own experience, most of these scholars are my teachers. Among them, Mr. Li Xueqin and Mr. Zhu Weizheng are studying history, Mr. Wang Shuizhao, Mr. Zhang Peiheng, and Mr. Xing Shanhong are studying literature, Mr. Qiu Xigui is studying ancient characters and history, Mr. Lu Gusun is studying English literature and language, and Mr. He Zhaowu, whom Peng Gang visited, can be regarded as history and philosophy.
Mr. Zhu Weizheng
What is more special is Mr. Zhang Xingang ("Must-note": former Vice-Chancellor of CityU), who is a scientist and has a different experience from other gentlemen. He traveled from the mainland to Taiwan with his parents as a child, and later to the United States to study, where he was trained entirely in Western-style science, but he was always interested in Chinese culture. I met him when he was president of City University of Hong Kong, and he was working hard to promote the education and popularization of Chinese culture. Today, when university management is becoming more and more scientific, is it rare to have a president like him who cares about Chinese culture? That's why I've included my interview with him here.
Although most of the scholars I have interviewed are in the field of literature and history, they have specialized in the art industry, and their real specialties are not something that I can easily enter. If there is one thing that is consistent, it is that some of the topics in the intellectual humanities of the past decade have been touched upon here, and the scholars we have interviewed have given answers.
Wen Wei Po: From the questions you asked, we can also find that there are some questions that you have been concerned about for a long time, and you have also asked these gentlemen separately; It can also be seen from the respondents' answers that they have some common concern.
Dai Yan: Among these scholars, Mr. He Zhaowu is the oldest, and in his "Going to School", we have already seen memories of Southwest Associated University. The rest of you were basically born before or during the Anti-Japanese War, and several Chinese scholars went to university after 1949, experienced the ups and downs of the fifties and sixties of the last century, and also experienced the reform and opening up in the 1980s to the present day. When I do interviews, of course, I consider their respective majors and ask some simple questions that are close to their majors, but in fact, I am more concerned about the issues of "world view" and "historical view". The first worldview is to say how these scholars view the world and the relationship between China and the world when they come from such an era?
Needless to say, Mr. Li Xueqin and Mr. Qiu Xigui are the top experts in ancient history, but the interesting thing is that Mr. Li is not only very good at English, he also studied Russian, and has long been interested in making a comparative study of ancient China and foreign antiquity. Mr. Qiu is a researcher of ancient characters, but he also uses the knowledge and theories of Western cultural anthropology to analyze ancient Chinese thought. Of course, Mr. He Zhaowu and Mr. Lu Gusun have a better understanding of Western culture, but they are also both Chinese and Western, Mr. He himself has an English version of "The History of the Development of Chinese Thought", and Mr. Lu also has his own unique views on Chinese culture, and has written many articles and essays in this regard.
In 2015, Professor Dai Yan (left) interviewed Mr. Qiu Xigui. Photo by Wu Zhan
So, what I want to learn from these scholars is, first of all, their views on China's relationship with the world. We know that from the May Fourth Movement to the War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression, there has been a great change in China's ideological circles, that is, people often say that "salvation overpowers enlightenment". And these scholars basically happened to be educated at this stage when "salvation is overwhelming", and formed their views on the world, that is, their views on the world beyond China and China, which is what I call "world view". Therefore, when interviewing, I often ask them about their views on the world and their evaluation of current social trends and topics such as the craze for Chinese studies.
The second is the "view of history".
Most of these scholars are engaged in the study of literature and history, and of course they have extremely professional research and evaluation of Chinese history and ancient Chinese culture. But at the same time, the turbulent years they went through, their own experiences have become history, a part of modern Chinese history. Therefore, during the interview, I will notice that I ask them to talk about their research object, that is, ancient history, and also ask them to talk about the history of the Anti-Japanese War and other histories that they have experienced, which is what I call the "view of history". And almost every scholar has answered these questions.
For example, Mr. Li Xueqin said that when he was in college in the 1950s, he was very interested in ancient civilizations, and he had an ideal to compare the civilizations of Rome, Egypt and early China together. This is a comparative historical concept. Such an ideal naturally requires mastery of a variety of foreign languages to realize, but after "ten years", he could not learn foreign languages, and he had to adjust his direction. Another example is Mr. Zhang Peiheng, who was deeply influenced by Lu Xun and the May Fourth New Culture, and had also seen Japan forcing people to read the Four Books and Five Classics during the invasion of China, so he had his own ideas on how to inherit the tradition and what kind of tradition to inherit.
If there is one consistent question in my 10-year interviews, it is the worldview and the historical view.
Wen Wei Po: Before planning these interviews, did you have a rough selection and criteria for the interviewees? It can be seen from the book that some gentlemen are more willing to speak out on public issues and family and country issues, while a few gentlemen seem to be more serious and low-key?
Dai Yan: It's a complete coincidence, I didn't have a complete plan, and if I did, maybe it wouldn't be what it is now. However, most of the 11 scholars in the book are familiar to me, and I am honored to have their trust and willingness to accept the interview, which is very grateful. Over the years, I also realized that there might still be some underlying standards at that time.
First of all, if you have a little knowledge of the Chinese humanities community, you will know that the scholars we interviewed are recognized as first-class in terms of their professional excellence and influence. As a friend said, the early history of China, that is, the history of the Xia Shang Zhou, can be so high-profile today, and such a profound major has become a prominent study of our times, Mr. Li Xueqin has definitely contributed a lot, whether it is the controversial Xia Shang Zhou project he presided over, or the Tsinghua Jane that he has been responsible for sorting out in recent years, it is a topic of great concern to everyone.
And then there's Mr. Qiu Xigui, who was known as "Chen Jingrun of Liberal Arts" forty years ago and an honorary doctorate from the University of Chicago, and it is worth mentioning that before him, Hu Shih seems to be the only Chinese humanities scholar to enjoy this honor. In addition, like Mr. Zhang Peiheng, the "History of Chinese Literature" edited by him and the method he advocated to connect ancient literature and modern literature have also had a great influence. Mr. Zhu Weizheng's status in the field of modern history is quite high, so in his later years he was awarded an honorary doctorate from the University of Hamburg, Germany, and Bu Zhengmin, the editor-in-chief of the recently best-selling Harvard History of China, also mentioned in the general preface to the Chinese edition of "Harvard History of China" that he was influenced and encouraged by Mr. Zhu. Japan's Kozenhiro Kozenhiro, who specializes in the literature of the Six Dynasties in China, was elected a member of the Japanese Academy last year, a testament to his standing in Japanese academia, and his treatises have been translated and published in China, and he has made a name for himself in French sinology circles in the last century.
Professor Li Xueqin
Secondly, although most of them are professional scholars, they are strictly within the scope of academics, and they are not in the habit of speaking on public affairs, but from my long-term experience with them, I know that they actually have a strong sense of social responsibility, have a strong sense of humanistic care, and have their own opinions on social issues, and some scholars are very bold to speak out. This is something to be particularly emphasized. In the past, Lu Xun said that when Tao Yuan Mingsheng was in the Yi Dynasty, he did not express impassionedly, so he won the name of "pastoral poet", but as long as he reads the article "Shujiu", you can know that he has not forgotten and is indifferent in the world. I think this is an oft-quoted quote that can be used to describe the scholars I have interviewed, that is, they all have a vision and a mind that goes beyond their expertise.
It's not that pure professional academics aren't good enough, but without this layer, the interviews don't make much sense, and the reader just goes straight to their professional papers.
Wen Wei Po: From the interviews, it can be seen that most of these gentlemen are very modest, and they have already made achievements in their respective fields, but when answering questions, they often talk about their admiration for their predecessors.
Dai Yan: You are right to observe that really good scholars tend to be more modest the higher their achievements, but more importantly, the first-class scholars we often talk about should still be "people who work" as the saying goes.
I watch American movies, there are also "A Beautiful Mind" about the great mathematician Nash, and "The Theory of Everything" about the great physicist Hawking, but in China, there are very few movies with scholars as the protagonists, I don't know what the image of a scholar is in the eyes of people in other professions? Is it in an ivory tower, where life is elegant and refined, or is it like a nerd, lacking common sense and impersonal? I would like to say that, like ordinary workers, peasants, and clerks, the scholars we interviewed were at least people who worked all day.
One only has to look at their academic results to understand this. Compared with Mr. He Zhaowu, he has translated so many books and written so many books, there are always dozens of them, but we also know that he is very modest and calls himself a "marginal person". It was in such a life that he published so many books, and what did he rely on, that is, to work, that is, to contribute.
In Mr. Lu Gusun's later years, the students called him "Old Immortal". He's really not a god, he's just a worker. He lived near the school, and sometimes we went to see him and see him occupy a room of books and materials for the purpose of compiling a dictionary. He would lie there every day and write and write, which took both mental and physical strength, and only went for a walk at school in the evening.
Mr. Lu Gusun
Mr. Joo Seok-gyu was a teacher at my university, and at the end of the "10 years", he lived and worked in a very small dormitory, and many of our teachers at that time were like that, lifting the mattress up and using it as a desk, and sleeping when it was laid down. A few years ago, he published six large volumes of anthologies, which I heard was chosen by himself, and are his most important achievements. I can't read the particularly professional articles in it, but if I look at it at hand, I will still have a little impression of the issues he cares about and his research methods, and I will know that his achievements must have been accumulated little by little by relying on long-term and hard work, and there are no shortcuts.
Mr. Wang Shuizhao also made great contributions to the study of Song Dynasty literature and literary dialects, and I participated in the opening and defense of graduate thesis with him every year in the same department.
We can understand that none of these scholars have had a smooth life in their lives, and they have all encountered such ups and downs and setbacks, but just like that, they still did so many things. One can imagine how much of their life they should have spent researching, publishing, teaching, and working diligently.
Wen Wei Po: Taken together, these scholars can quite reflect the academic outlook of an era. This generation also has unique experiences that belong to this generation. As a junior scholar who has been in close contact with them, do you have some personal understanding and perception of their work?
Dai Yan: I sometimes wonder if these scholars are willing to give almost all of their work, out of interest or out of responsibility? I didn't ask them directly for confirmation of this question, but I believe that there are many things they didn't think of when encountering such an era and such a life. Mr. Ho Zhaowu's translation of Russell's History of Western Philosophy is very famous, and it was first published in 1963, and I read it when I didn't know Mr. He, and he mentioned in the interview that during the "Cultural Revolution", he was locked up in a cowshed for it. So who knows what kind of opportunities and twists and turns your initial interests and ideals will encounter later. I prefer to believe that in these scholars, the sense of responsibility is greater than the initial interest.
I myself am a "Class of 77" college student, and I entered the Chinese Department of the university after the "ten years". I remember when I first entered the school, I listened to the head of the department, and he said that our Chinese department is not to train writers, but to teach everyone to do literary research. But at that time, the whole country was in a historical turning period, most of the students in the class of 77 had the experience of working and farming, and then returned to school from the society, some of them were already well-known writers, so although there was such a department training, the first famous among the students were still a group of writers and critics, who used their own creations and comments to participate in the huge social changes. My generation was able to go to university because of this huge social change, and it was natural to participate in it.
The scholars I interviewed were our teachers, who were in their forties at the time, and they also felt that the "ten years" were over, and they could finally do a lot and be enthusiastic about the future. I was inspired by such teachers when I was younger, and I still am. My generation always felt that everyone's fate was linked to the fate of the country, as if they did not put their own interests first. We are often reminded by our teachers that China has had such a long period of "turmoil", and scholarship has also been affected, and even the study of China's own ancient history and ancient culture is even lagging behind other countries in some aspects. It was a big stimulus for us at the time.
We still belong to a generation with the historical memory of "being beaten if we are backward", so we always feel that our study and research are not to satisfy our own interests and hobbies. This is probably the historical burden that people of our generation who study Chinese history and Chinese literary history have, unlike today's young people who can relax and feel at ease, now that "China is rising", in this era, there is no need to carry such a big historical burden.
Wen Wei Po: Although they are almost the same generation, different experiences will also lead to different understandings of Chinese culture among scholars?
Dai Yan: People with different academic backgrounds will look at problems from different perspectives. For example, Mr. Zhang Xingang, he has a point of view that I am more interested in, and I quite agree with, that is, the development of Chinese culture from ancient times to today, there is no doubt that it is the world's oldest history, the most brilliant, and the highest degree of civilization, but as you know, China has been forced to open its doors to the world in modern times, so there are all kinds of new problems, some of which are problems that traditional culture cannot help. Mr. Zhang Xingang raised a question based on his own experience, he said that if China wants to rise, Chinese culture needs to be recognized by the world and make new contributions to the world. Of course, similar issues are of concern to other gentlemen we have visited.
The ability to study Chinese history, Chinese culture, rather than simply dwelling on it, and being able to maintain an objective stance is what these scholars are great about. They seem to have another eye, a very broad vision, and believe that in order for Chinese culture to continue to develop and play a more important role, it must first be able to renew itself. This can be seen more clearly in the three Japanese scholars.
Wen Wei Po: Let's talk about the regrets of this book. Who else thought about visiting but couldn't?
Dai Yan: I regret the most, one is Mr. Jin Kemu and the other is Mr. Tian Yuqing.
Mr. Jin Kemu
In Mr. Jin's later years, I was very familiar with him for a period of time, and he co-wrote "Saying Eight Shares" with Mr. Qi Gong and Mr. Zhang Zhongxing, which was compiled when I was at Zhonghua Book Company. At that time, after work, I would go around to his house to sit and chat with him, and sometimes I was too busy or felt that there was nothing to say, and he would call after a few days. Mr. Kim has many friends who are reporters and editors, and he knows all kinds of news, and he is also very concerned about various things, and he has to ask a lot of questions every time they meet. Although I didn't dare to trouble Mr. Jin, he still gave comments on my article from somewhere. When Mr. Kim died in 2000, I happened to be abroad and was very sad to receive the news of his death because I never had the opportunity to listen to him and ask him questions.
I wanted to interview Mr. Tian Yuqing, which I had planned several years ago, and I made some preparations one after another, mainly reading his articles published over the years. Originally, we lived next door to him, which was also convenient, but unfortunately when I came to Shanghai to work, I was too far away and couldn't find the right time. In 2014, Mr. Tian also passed away, which became an eternal regret.