Dialogue丨Ge Jianxiong, Yu Yunguo, Wei Zhou: The Song Dynasty and the Turning Point of Chinese History

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On October 14th, Ge Jianxiong, a senior professor at Fudan University, Yu Yunguo, a professor at Shanghai Normal University, and Wei Zhou, a book reviewer, discussed the turning point of the Song Dynasty and Chinese history, as well as the significance of overseas research perspectives, around the third edition of the selected edition of Siku's "Overseas China Studies Series", "China Turns Inward", "Tianhuang Nobles" and "Power Relations".

What can an overseas perspective bring us?

Wei Zhou: In recent years, there have been many film and television dramas like "Menghualu" and "Man Jianghong", and the public's attention to the Song Dynasty has increased compared with before. In the past, the study of Song history seemed to be a little weak in China, but many excellent works appeared overseas. Since I was in college, I have been reading the Overseas China Studies series, which contains many books related to the Song Dynasty, such as Liu Zijian's "China Turns Inward" and Jia Zhiyang's "Tianhuang Nobles". I would like to ask two teachers: From your research on Chinese history, what kind of new perspectives or insights can overseas research on Song history provide us?

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China's Turning Inward: A Cultural Turn in the Wake of the Two Song Dynasties

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By James T.C. Liu

Translated by Zhao Dongmei

Ge Jianxiong: The current popularity of the Song Dynasty is mainly due to the emergence of some popular books and literary works in recent years, so the popularity of the Song Dynasty and everyone's attention to the Song Dynasty are much higher. From the perspective of social customs, it is important to disseminate these studies.

As for the study of the history of the Song Dynasty abroad, is it true that our domestic historiographers do not attach importance to it? This is actually a difference in the concept of historians. Overseas scholars, such as the early Professor Liu Zijian, some of his students, and scholars who stood entirely on the outside, studied the Song Dynasty from their historical point of view. It cannot be said that we do not attach importance to the study of Song history in China, and there are many achievements. But where is our focus? As I see as a layman, Wang Anshi's reforms. And what about the Peasant War -- you see that there is such a big book about the history of the Peasant War in the Song Dynasty. And what else? Study the main battles of the Song Dynasty and the Northern Expedition. In the same way that we study the finances of the Song Dynasty and the economy of the Song Dynasty, our domestic research is different from the perspective of the Japanese Spo Yoshinobu who studied the economy of the Song Dynasty. So I don't think it's that we don't pay attention to it in China, or that we don't have research results in China, but it's mainly because of different values.

Prof. Katsu Yao

Yu Yunguo: Wei Zhou said that the research on Song history in the 20th century was relatively weak. From my point of view, we say that everything should be compared, and if we compare the study of Song history with the traditional pre-Qin, Qin and Han dynasties, Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern Dynasties, Sui and Tang dynasties in our ancient Chinese history, then before the reform and opening up, the Song history was indeed weaker than them. I think there is probably a reason for this, that is, the traditional historians in the past started from the front. Like Lu Simian, he wrote down the history of the dynasties one by one, and wrote that the history of the five dynasties of the Sui and Tang dynasties could not be written, and he had a note on the history of the Song, Liao, Jin, and Yuan dynasties, but he had no time to write. As far as Chinese history is concerned, the ancient Qin and Han dynasties were the head, which is the tradition of academic study in the past.

The second reason is that the development of printing technology in the Song Dynasty made the historical materials explode all of a sudden, and the historical materials of the Song Dynasty may exceed the Tang Dynasty by more than ten times. In the previous periods, a person could read the historical materials of this period after a few years of exhaustion. As for the history of the Song Dynasty, I don't think any scholar of Song history dares to say that he can read all the historical materials of the Song Dynasty, and he can only dig a little bit in it.

The third reason is that the study of history is changed with the art, and the "art" is the power and politics. There is also learning that changes with the world, with the general situation of the whole era. Because we all want China to be strong, then it is natural that more people will pay attention to the Qin, Han and Datang. I think these three aspects are probably the reasons why the research on Song history was relatively weak in the past.

In fact, overseas research on Song history started very late, also in the mid-20th century. Japan is ahead of the curve in this regard. Naito Hunan proposed a large framework, and Miyazaki Ichijo, Kuwabara Kazo, and others raised it. It should be admitted that in the 40s and 50s and 60s of the 20 th century, Japanese scholars were ahead of our Chinese scholars, and we still have to refer to their research results during that period. Europe and the United States were even later, in the early fifties, France's Bai Lezhi carried out the Song History Project, and he started from the characters at that time, and started very late.

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Naito Hunan: Politics and Sinology (1866-1934)

[美]傅佛果(Joshua Fogel) 著

Translated by Tao Demin and He Yingying

In addition, it is related to our past academic orientation, as Mr. Ge said just now, there are only a few points in the study of Song history: one Song Taizu will talk about it, then Wang Anshi will talk about it, then the three major peasant uprisings in the Song Dynasty, and then the Water Margin. However, I would like to say that after the reform and opening up, our Song history research has caught up, and it should be said that the achievements and current situation of Song history research in the past 40 years are impressive. There is no major level in the study of Song history that is blank, but it is just a problem that needs to be further deepened. It can be said that since the 80s, our research on Song history in China has not only been able to dialogue with the United States and Japan, but has also become the main force. This is the general situation of the study of Song history.

Speaking of this series of overseas Chinese studies, I brought the one I read today, "China Turns Inward: A Cultural Turn in the Two Song Dynasties" by Liu Zijian. I've put a lot of effort into this book, and I've read it more than four or five times. This year marks the 35th anniversary of the publication of this series, and I just asked the editor of the Jiangsu People's Publishing House, and he said that it was the first book published in 1988, which was "China's Modernization." After the 80s, the country opened, and outside methods, trends of thought, and achievements flocked in. Jiangsu People's Publishing House's set of books is actually stepping on the drumbeat of reform and opening up at that time, and now after 35 years, it is more focused on traditional Chinese humanities, with the longest persistence, the largest number of published books, and the greatest influence.

Professor Yu Yunguo

What is the place of the Song Dynasty in Chinese history?

Wei Zhou: Just now, Mr. Yu gave us a good reminder that many topics seem to be historical, but in fact they are closely related to the changes of the times. I also read this book "China Turns Inward" when I was in college, and at that time I still regarded it as a Song history proposition. But later, I also read several other books of Mr. Liu Zijian, including his own biography, and found that he looked like a character in a study, but he was also very fierce when he was young, and even wanted to study Japan during the Anti-Japanese War. He only went to study the Song Dynasty later. I was surprised by this discovery, and when I re-read it, I realized one thing - he wrote about the Song Dynasty China turning inward, not the Song Dynasty turning inward, he wrote about China turning inward. He was talking about a huge change at that time, that is, after the Anshi Rebellion, the Silk Road was gradually closed, and the entire inland transportation to the outside world was cut off. In this case, China's entire culture has completed a kind of transformation. This seems to be a study of the Song Dynasty, but in fact it has a big historical vision, and it is a conclusion drawn from the perspective of a millennium, such as the whole society tending to be conservative, turning to self-identification, and becoming alienated from the outside world. Of course, the advantage is that society has completed cultural integration, for example, Japan was closed to the country during the Edo period, but a series of cultural characteristics of Japan as we know it today were actually laid down in the Edo period. I think the Song Dynasty is a bit similar, in the process of "turning inward", this culture gradually became stereotyped, and it really formed its own identity. So we need to understand for ourselves what this change is all about.

When I was in college, I read that Mr. Chen Yinke said that Chinese culture was "made in the era of the Zhao and Song dynasties", and I was a little shocked at the time, because we have been talking about the Tang Dynasty all along, and it feels as if the Tang Dynasty was the pinnacle of ancient China, but he thinks that the pinnacle of Chinese culture is actually in the Song Dynasty. Yan Fu also said: "The reason why China has become today's phenomenon is not to be judged for good or evil, but for the creation of the Song people, and it can be asserted." "How do we understand the importance of the Song Dynasty?

Wei Zhou

Ge Jianxiong: When we look at history, we don't look at specific things, but we look at the values that define history. For example, what is the definition of culture? What are the standards? When Chen Yinke said this, including what he talked about in the future, Wang Guowei and his own positioning, he evaluated it from his values. If we expand the concept of culture to include material culture, spiritual culture, or extend its scope to the peasantry, then it should never be said that the Song Dynasty has reached its peak. Chen Yinke's high opinion of the Song Dynasty was based on his ideals and his own values. I think that when we evaluate this matter today, we must first clarify a common indicator. Your metrics are not the same as mine, and that can never be discussed. If we want to discuss whether Chen Yinke's judgment is correct, we must first clarify what the concept of culture Chen Yinke is talking about. I guess it's mostly in the humanities. Otherwise, how can we explain it? Could it be that the literature of the Song Dynasty surpassed that of the Tang Dynasty? There is no way to compare this. If we look at the basic aspect, for example, the citizen culture of the Song Dynasty that we are talking about was more developed than that of the Ming Dynasty? Of course, we can't talk about it. Therefore, Chen Yinke's words are mainly a humanistic concept, including his evaluation of Wang Guowei, including his writing of Liu Rushi, all of which are based on his own cultural concepts.

Wei Zhou: I think it would be better to ask this question in a different way, for example, how do we understand the influence or importance of the Song Dynasty on China today?

The scene of the event

Yu Yunguo: I have said in some other places that we must fully and accurately grasp the words of the two famous people, Chen Yinke and Yan Fu. For example, Chen Yinke's words, he said that "culture creates poles", but he only says that culture creates poles. And this "cultural pole" is just like what Mr. Ge said just now, it is mainly from the humanistic aspect, the Song Dynasty is relatively free, more open, more independent, Chen Yinke here is to entrust his own "block" in it. Therefore, "cultural poles" does not mean that everything in the Song Dynasty was made poles, and this kind of absolute words is a taboo in historical studies. In addition, he also said that "after the gradual decline, it will eventually recover", and now some writers of popular books say that "it will eventually recover" means that it will definitely be revitalized. But this revitalization does not mean that you should revitalize the Song Dynasty. Although I am engaged in the history of the Song Dynasty, is the Song Dynasty so good? Does it conform to our modern values and humanistic ideals? Chen Yinke's words should also be read in a comprehensive way, and he clearly stated in another place: What kind of culture will we build in the future? He said: "On the one hand, we absorb imported foreign doctrines, and on the other hand, we do not forget the status of our original nation." Foreign good things absorb imports, and we must also remember the excellent things of our own nation, which is Chen Yinke's ideal Chinese culture.

Let's talk about Yan Fu's sentence again. Yan Fu cannot be said to be a historian, he is a thinker. He saw that the Song Dynasty was relatively close to the present, and the influence of the system, culture, and customs of the Song Dynasty on the present was relatively more direct than that of the Tang Dynasty in some aspects. But there is one point, from the beginning of Qin Shi Huang to the Xinhai Revolution was the imperial era. The roots of the imperial era, the bad things and the good things, must be found from the Qin system. Tan Sitong said that China's "2,000-year-old government, Qin Zheng". On the one hand, we have to find the genes of the Song Dynasty, and we have to dig up the roots of autocracy, which are still in the Qin Dynasty.

Yan Fu is talking about the Song Dynasty in general. In the 320th year of the Song Dynasty, it is too crude to say how the Song Dynasty was in general terms, from the perspective of historical research. As a matter of fact, historical research still needs to be further deepened and refined.

Zhao Ji "Qin Fang Poems"

How to understand the emperor of the Song Dynasty

Ruling the world with scholars?

Wei Zhou: Teacher Yu reminded me very right, for example, nine times out of ten are from the Song Dynasty, you have to see from what point of view, from what angle. I went to Xi'an a while ago, don't look at the streets of Xi'an are full of Tang elements, the current ancient city is actually left over from the Ming and Qing dynasties. Therefore, "going to Xi'an to see the Tang Dynasty" is actually looking at artificial things. Some local friends told me, don't look at the elements of the Tang Dynasty that are shown to you, but in fact, what Xi'an people really agree with in their bones is Qin's set. It's also interesting that the subconscious or cultural tradition of a society depends on how you trace it, from what angle, and when. I think that many historians, when they look back on certain histories, they actually have sustenance. From this point of view, I think that the Song Dynasty is not just a dynasty for many people, it is sometimes an ideal, or a certain idea in it.

Zhao Dongmei, a scholar of Song history, wrote a lot of books a few years ago, and she once answered this question: If you could travel back to the past, which dynasty would you go back to? So in what sense is the best? She did not speak in the sense of material culture, but said that the politics of that era were relatively clear, and the status of scholars was relatively high, and there was such a saying that "the emperor and the scholars ruled the world together." At present, many people yearn for the politics of the Song Dynasty, at least in ancient times, that era seems to be really the best era for scholars - the early and middle Tang Dynasty was still dominated by aristocratic politics, and in the Ming and Qing dynasties, the status of scholars and doctors has been swept away, and in the end it even reached the point of being called "slaves". In contrast, this certainly makes people feel more favorable about the Song Dynasty.

So, why was there such a structure between the imperial power and the scholars in the Song Dynasty, or was this the truth of history? What are the characteristics of this imperial power? I would like to invite the two of you to talk about this, and I think there must be a lot of people who are interested.

Detail of "Eighteen Bachelors".

Ge Jianxiong: There are two backgrounds to this, one is that after the eunuchs in the late Tang Dynasty and the warlords, after five generations of division, Zhao Kuangyin, the founding emperor of the Song Dynasty, was most concerned about how to avoid splitting and how to stabilize the country.

The second factor should be acknowledged that Zhao Kuangyin played a role personally. In terms of comprehensively contributing to the governance of the country and formulating systems, Zhao Kuangyin can be said to surpass any previous emperor. For example, a glass of wine released the military power, starting from Zhao Kuangyin, really managed to control the army in the hands of the imperial court. Another example is that the power is in the central government, and there is no autocratic governor at the local level, and this system was also created by him. He stipulated that he was not allowed to kill the officer. Su Dongpo's Wutai poetry case, now we are talking about it because the Queen Mother reminded the emperor that he could not kill civil officials, in fact, even if the Queen Mother did not remind him, normally speaking, except for particularly serious crimes, according to the regulations of the Song Dynasty, the emperor could not kill him. These are all set by Zhao Kuangyin. There is such a record, at first people thought that this was talking, and later Jin Bing found out this secret after entering Kaifeng: the Song Dynasty had a rule that every new emperor succeeded to the throne, he must be taken by the old eunuch to a sealed small room, which was written with Zhao Kuangyin's ancestral teachings, which said that it was not allowed to kill ministers and officials. So to some extent, I think many of the systems of the Song Dynasty have a lot to do with Zhao Kuangyin's personal contributions, and no founding emperor of any dynasty is so enlightened. Therefore, the so-called "co-governance" in the Song Dynasty was actually because of the constraints of Zhao Kuangyin's ancestral teachings, and the emperor at that time was relatively weak and enlightened, so the ministers could have a great influence on the emperor, and even some influence the government.

But ministers are not entirely impartial, intellectuals are also people, so there is a partisan struggle, there is a struggle of political factions. To a certain extent, if the emperor's authority is not enough under an authoritarian centralized system, it will cause political chaos. Let's not regard the participation of scholars and doctors in the Song Dynasty as close to the modern democratic system, which is fundamentally two different things. Do intellectuals represent freedom and democracy? No, this is not the case. Chinese traditional knowledge practitioners are also authoritarian. Like those scholars in the Song Dynasty, they could not represent all classes at all, and they were not necessarily better than a shrewd emperor to govern the world.

To put it simply, there is no co-governance between the emperor and the intellectuals, and it has not reached this stage, which is a situation of superficial co-governance that occurs under special circumstances because the emperor is more enlightened or weaker. The real co-governance depends on power, such as the early years of the Eastern Jin Dynasty, "the king and the horse share the world". This situation did not exist in the Song Dynasty, but due to some personal influence of Zhao Kuangyin, the Song Dynasty did have a relatively clear situation that was different from other autocratic eras.

Song Taizu Zhao Kuangyin

Yu Yunguo: This is a relatively complicated issue, and the views of Song historians are not the same. The scholars themselves are not a whole, and the intellectuals are not a class, but a class. In fact, Mr. Ge has just talked about a very key idea, in the Eastern Jin Dynasty, the king and the horse share the world. The theme of today's dialogue is "The Turning Point of the Song Dynasty and Chinese History." So what exactly is the turning point of this turning point? I would like to mention a few major aspects, which also involve the change from the aristocratic system of the Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern Dynasties, Sui and Tang dynasties to the scholarly bureaucratic system after the Song Dynasty, which Mr. Ge just mentioned.

In my opinion, mainly from the perspective of the political pattern, that is, from the original aristocratic bureaucrats and the emperor to rule the world together, to the imperial examination bureaucrats and emperors after the Song Dynasty to govern the country. From this point of view, it is okay to say that we will rule the world together. Of course, we must further talk about what this "co-governance" is. From the perspective of the army, from the compulsory military system of the Sui and Tang dynasties to the mercenary system of the Song Dynasty, the army became the state to support, which is also a major change. In this way, the power of the emperor, who represents the country, is more concentrated.

From an economic point of view, the biggest change is that in the Tang Dynasty, the land was state-owned, and after the Tang Dynasty, the land system collapsed, and in the Song Dynasty, the private ownership of land was dominant, and land could flow freely and be bought and sold freely. This has a great impact on the change in the entire social structure, and those who have land have private property. In addition, the commodity economy increased in the social life of the Song Dynasty with the development of society as a whole - but do not exaggerate it to the absolute extent. It also includes the transformation of the city, from the original fang city system of separation of commercial areas and residential areas to the appearance of residential areas and commercial areas mixed together in the Song Dynasty, and the economic component of the city has increased compared with the Sui and Tang dynasties, in addition to the city and the city, there are also towns. In addition, after the Anshi Rebellion, the population moved south for the second time, and then to the Jingkang Change, and the southward shift of China's social and economic center of gravity was completely completed, which has a lot to do with our current economic and geographical layout.

From the perspective of social system, the Wei, Jin, Southern and Northern Dynasties, Sui and Tang dynasties were aristocratic systems, and nobles had status. After the Song Dynasty, landlords and bureaucrats had no identity. Non-status bureaucrats and non-status landlords, including scholars and doctors, can be officials and have certain privileges, but the second and third generations do not have this privilege. And those tribes, slaves were emancipated, and personal freedom was relatively much better than that of previous generations.

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Thorny: Imperial Examinations and Society in the Song Dynasty

[美]贾志扬(John W. Chaffee) 著

In terms of ideology and culture, Song Studies appeared, and Song Studies, which centered on science, had a great influence on the ideology and culture of the entire Song Dynasty and later. There is also a civic culture. The Song Dynasty was an important stage in the development of civic culture. After entering the Song Dynasty, because of the coexistence of Song, Liao, Xi, Xia and Jin, nationalism rose relatively high, and the Liao Dynasty and the Jin Dynasty also thought that they were China, and everyone was Chinese.

I think these changes are what we're going to talk about in this topic. Under this theme, we can see whether the scholars and the emperor have ruled the world together. This brings us to the words of Mr. Liu Zijian, whom I have repeatedly admired. He believes that the so-called co-governance between the emperor and the bureaucrats and doctors in the Song Dynasty is divided into four models. The first model is the model of court control, that is, what we call the model of co-governance with scholars and scholars, that is, the imperial examination bureaucracy, in this sense, it is also possible to say that the emperor and scholars rule the world together. The best state of this model is the Song Renzong period that Mr. Zhao admires and I also agree with. Of course, there are also many drawbacks, such as the ramp-and-string, party disputes, and so on that Mr. Ge just said. Then there was a gradual change, starting from Wang Anshi's reform, and by the time of Song Huizong and Cai Jing, it became the second model. Mr. Liu Zijian defined it as a model of court centralization, which he explained as the independent exercise of central control by the emperor and his agents. Specifically, it is the control model of Song Huizong and the so-called "six thieves" represented by Cai Jing, and other bureaucrats and doctors can only routinely approve decisions from the side. The third model is called the authoritarian model, in which the emperor or his agents are alone, arbitrarily or collaboratively involved in decision-making, and the bureaucracy can only partially share power, but has no right to participate in decision-making. In the early period of the Southern Song Dynasty, Gaozong used Qin Hui to negotiate peace, which I think was very short-lived. Then Liu Zijian proposed a fourth model - the dictatorial model. He explained it this way: the monarch and his agents have a monopoly on power, suppressing and even suppressing any other bureaucrats or scholars who disagree, including intellectuals in the opposition. This is the stage of the dictatorship of Song Gaozong and Qin Hui. Mr. Liu Zijian used these four models to explain, which is much more in-depth than the general statement that scholars and emperors rule the world together, and I think it is basically in line with the historical trend of the Song Dynasty. Therefore, scholars are just "Mao", political power, imperialism, and autocracy are "skin", "if the skin does not exist, Mao will be attached", and the state of "Mao" and whether "Mao" is well raised are determined by "skin". Considering the so-called scholars and emperors ruling the world together in the Song Dynasty, we must consider the situation of the monarch and the emperor. As Mr. Ge said just now, the emperor's incompetence will lead to the dictatorship of power in the middle and late Southern Song Dynasty, so I think we must link the imperial power with the entire political ecology. The political ecology of the Southern Song Dynasty is obviously inferior to that of the Northern Song Dynasty, if you want to travel to the Song Dynasty and become a citizen of the Zhao family, are you willing to travel to the Qin Hui era? Is Qin Hui a scholar or not? A standard scholar with beautiful handwriting and dignified appearance, but you don't want to be an intellectual under his rule, right? Therefore, the specific analysis of specific problems is the soul of history.

Detail of "Zhongxing Ruiying Map".

Ge Jianxiong: Many people who want to travel to the Song Dynasty still want to travel back in time after listening to Professor Yu's words? In the past, more than one person asked me, which period do you want to travel to? I told him, first, it is impossible to travel through, and second, if I do, I will travel to the future, no matter which dynasty, I don't want to go back.

At the time of the Two Song Dynasty, why did Chinese history turn a corner?

Wei Zhou: It is true that history has many different faces. Now when it comes to the Northern Song Dynasty, people will think of "The Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival", but not to mention that the lives of the common people depicted on "The Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival" are actually very hard, and it is best for women to be cautious when they want to cross. Japanese scholar Yasuhiko Satake once wrote an article saying why there are thousands of men and one woman in "Qingming Riverside Picture" - if you look carefully, there are almost no women on the "Qingming Riverside Picture", and women in the city at that time were not allowed to show their heads, so it is certainly not very friendly to women.

Detail of "Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival".

Many people talk about the Song Dynasty and focus on the fact that the Song Dynasty emperor and scholars ruled the world more openly, but he has no way to explain the paradox, that is, China's centralized power also began in the Song Dynasty. How can we explain that the most enlightened epoch in history is at the same time the era when centralization began? If we look at the evolution of history slowly, we can understand how to explain its duality. I think the Song Dynasty is indeed long enough, and the history is complex enough, for example, the Northern Song Dynasty and the Southern Song Dynasty are very different. In the past, the study of Song history in China was unconsciously biased towards the Northern Song Dynasty. The Southern Song Dynasty may have paid more attention to Hangzhou, because Hangzhou was originally the capital of the Southern Song Dynasty. But even if it is a study of the Southern Song Dynasty, if you look carefully, you will find that most people's interest in the Southern Song Dynasty is biased towards Song Gaozong, Qin Hui, and Yue Fei. The difference between the Northern and Southern Song Dynasty is very huge, and the scholars of the Northern Song Dynasty are also very different from those of the Southern Song Dynasty.

After China's economic center of gravity shifted to the south during the Southern Song Dynasty, the population of the Southern Song Dynasty was obviously many times that of the north at that time, and the distribution of the entire economic geography and population center of gravity was biased towards the south. The economic development of southern China now surpasses that of the north, and it was actually laid from that time. Now there is a saying in the market that "investment cannot leave the Southern Song Dynasty", I think this is not only a coincidence in the geographical boundary, but also related to the historical changes in the Southern Song Dynasty. Because the scholars of the Southern Song Dynasty took the initiative to make a lot of attempts at rural construction or local autonomy, which was not really implemented in the north, so later the north and the south were a little divergent in terms of historical experience and historical road.

I would also like to ask you both, what do you think of the differences between the Northern Song Dynasty and the Southern Song Dynasty, or some of the legacies they left behind?

Ge Jianxiong: I think many people have some misunderstandings about the economy and living standards of the Song Dynasty. The Song Dynasty felt as if it was the most affluent era, as if everyone in the Song Dynasty was living happily. I can tell you a few basic facts about this. The material wealth of the Song Dynasty did reach a new peak that had not been reached before, and an important indicator was population. The population of the late Northern Song Dynasty had exceeded 100 million, while the Tang Dynasty would not have exceeded 80 million, and the Han Dynasty would not have exceeded 60 million. Why did they think that the Song Dynasty was weak? This is because the population of the Song Dynasty has not been seriously studied at all. The Song Dynasty was very particular about administrative efficiency, and the number required by the central government to be reported by various localities is how many taxpayers you have, so the number left behind is the number of taxpayers. Many of our previous historians did not study it carefully, and looked at the Song Dynasty with only tens of millions of household registrations, and thought that the Song Dynasty had only tens of millions of people. After research, including He Bingdi, we all agree that the population of the Song Dynasty exceeded the 100 million mark when it arrived at Huizong of the Song Dynasty. What is this concept? Because at that time everyone had to survive and need food, so this showed that the total social production had also grown to a new level in tandem with the population. At that time, there was no grain import, on the contrary, a little thing had to be given to the Liao Dynasty. In the Southern Song Dynasty, despite the war, the total population of the Song and Jin Dynasty reached 120 million. That is to say, although the Jingkang Rebellion caused great damage, a large number of people moved south, which promoted the development of the south, and the population of the south continued to grow, and the material wealth of society was still increasing. So, where is the main part of this increase? Mainly in the south. This laid the foundation that since the Southern Song Dynasty, the proportion of population between the north and south of China has never reversed. In the past, during the Northern Song Dynasty, the population ratio between the north and the south accounted for six, and the south accounted for four; after the Southern Song Dynasty, especially the north, which suffered great damage later, by the time of the Yuan Dynasty, the ratio of China's population to the north and south reached its peak, with the south accounting for eight and the north accounting for two. By the Ming Dynasty and Qing Dynasty, it was a little more balanced, but it was always the south accounting for six and the north accounting for four. This turning point was in the Southern Song Dynasty. Since then, China's economic base has been firmly in the south.

Why did I just say that everyone should not mistakenly think that everyone was rich in the Song Dynasty? What was wrong with the Song Dynasty? The total amount of wealth increased, but this cake was more cut to scholars and intellectuals in the Song Dynasty. In order to settle these people, the Song Dynasty began to overnumber them on a large scale soon after, and redundant officials increased exponentially. There were several kinds of officials in the Song Dynasty, one was with a hat and a ticket, another had a hat but no ticket, and only gave you a title, and another might give you an identity, but with this status, you could enjoy privileges such as exemption from labor. When I studied the population, I found that the population of the middle and upper classes of the Song Dynasty who were supported by society, including those who had tax-free privileges, grew faster than the overall population, so the proportion of social support in the Song Dynasty continued to increase. The Song Dynasty was indeed dominated by stability, but this came at a great cost. For example, after the military power is relieved, it is necessary to give generous gifts to those soldiers and high-ranking officials. For example, there was a saying in the Song Dynasty that "if you want to be an official, you will kill people and set fire to be recruited." What if you take the imperial examination in the normal way and fail to pass the examination? When the robbers rebel, and then wait for the imperial court to recruit you. The Song Dynasty wanted to maintain preferential treatment for those officials, so it encountered financial problems from the very beginning of the country. Whether it is Wang Anshi or others, they can't solve this problem in the end.

It should be said that the scholars, officials, or more educated people of the Song Dynasty did live a more leisurely and civilized life, which is a fact. But don't think that the general standard of living in the Song Dynasty improved. For example, if you want to give preferential treatment to officials, where does this money come from? Those people at the bottom have not left any records, and the more educated people among the officials, scholars or citizens we see now reflect a better living conditions. This is also because the Song Dynasty had developed commerce and good social services, and urban life was indeed more comfortable. The Song Dynasty attached great importance to commerce and circulation, which also enabled the same wealth to create more social benefits. But I believe that the countryside of the Song Dynasty will basically not change much from before. For example, in the "Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival" just mentioned, it is certainly comfortable to sit in a restaurant and drink wine through the past, but what happiness is there when you travel through the past to pick up a burden and tow a boat? This prosperity is based on the premise that most people work harder to produce, and what the government does is to promote the circulation of commodities, but it is impossible to really make the wealth of the whole society consistent with the improvement of the living standards of these people through these, so I think it is necessary to look at it more comprehensively.

Detail of "West Lake Fun Picture Scroll".

Wei Zhou: Let me add that in the contemporaries of "The Riverside Scene at Qingming Festival", some people also painted "Wandering People" and presented it to the emperor, in order to show that the common people lived a very miserable life after Wang Anshi's reform. So when we look at that era, different sides existed at the same time.

Yu Yunguo: Just now, Mr. Ge talked about the issue of redundancy in the Song Dynasty, the issue of raising officials, and the treatment of scholars, let me add. There were two kinds of bureaucrats in the Song Dynasty, one was the imperial examination, and the real Jinshi was admitted to the office, which often promoted to a better status and better treatment. There is also a shade of the door. The scope of being an official is limited, but there is indeed a certain amount of preferential treatment. So we can see two scenarios. One situation is that the state has a heavy burden on the Enyin officials, starting from Fan Zhongyan in the Northern Song Dynasty to the Southern Song Dynasty, constantly demanding that the treatment of Enyin be reduced. The second point is that there are more and more people who enter the Jinshi Branch, and in the Southern Song Dynasty, it is more difficult to really become an official. At that time, the living conditions of many lower-level nine-rank officials and eighth-rank officials were not too high. Now, with the study of the history of the Southern Song Dynasty, these examples are very clear.

Next, we want to introduce this "Heavenly Nobles". The issue of the clan, that is, the problem of the second and third generations of the emperor, has always been a big problem in the imperial era. The Tang Dynasty began to focus on solving this problem, establishing the so-called Zongzheng Temple to manage the clan of the Li Tang Dynasty. But this problem is not completely solved. In the Song Dynasty, Song Taizu completely enveloped the clan - no matter what generation, as long as you are a member of the Zhao family, I will give you a certain treatment. But later, more and more people in the Zhao family multiplied, and according to Jia Zhiyang, there were more than 30,000 people recorded in the "History of the Song Dynasty" alone. There are also those who have not left their names, and they are all covered by the state, and this burden is overwhelming. Returning to the difference between the Southern Song Dynasty and the Northern Song Dynasty mentioned by the host, we can say that the Southern Song Dynasty is a continuation of the Northern Song Dynasty. However, when I wrote "Nandu Junchen", I said that the Southern Song Dynasty was a continuation of the Northern Song Dynasty from the perspective of imperial unity, but from the perspective of political system and political ecology, it was not a simple continuation of the Northern Song Dynasty. From the perspective of political geography, the external environment of the Southern Song Dynasty and the Northern Song Dynasty was very different. Although the Northern Song Dynasty fought with Liao in the early days, by 1004, the two sides established the "Lanyuan Alliance".

《

Tianhuang Nobles: A History of the Song Dynasty

[美]贾志扬(John W. Chaffee) 著

Translated by Zhao Dongmei

The "Loyalty" in this set of books takes the "Lanyuan Alliance" as the dividing line, and believes that the so-called loyalty before the "Lanyuan Alliance" is relational loyalty, that is, the kind of loyalty that officials have to the emperor himself. And the "alliance of the abyss" is a kind of identity loyalty in the future, that is, this loyalty is to the country. Of course, whether this concept can be drawn so clearly from the "League of the Yuanyuan" in 1004 is probably another matter, but this book makes a good explanation of the changes in the concept of the state in the Song Dynasty after the rise of nationalism.

《

Loyalty?—— Liao Dynasty's cross-border move"

[英]史怀梅(Naomi Stand) 著

Translated by Cao Liu

Returning to the topic just now, after the "Lanyuan Alliance", the Song-Liao confrontation has been maintaining peace. In the Xuanhe period, there was a Tong Northern Expedition and a resumption of war, and the peace lasted for a long time. During the Northern Song Dynasty, although there was external pressure, this pressure was moderate. Modest presence has the advantage of promoting reform. Therefore, whether it is the Qingli New Deal or Wang Anshi's reforms, to some extent, they are all related to this kind of external moderate pressure.

But after the Southern Song Dynasty, it was different. First, from the perspective of territorial geography, the Jin Dynasty was bounded by Huaishui and forced the Southern Song Dynasty regime further south. Second, the Jin regime was stronger and more effective than the Liao regime. This is like a sword, always hanging over the head of the Southern Song Dynasty, which is the external environment that caused the political ecology of the Southern Song Dynasty, and this external environment has prompted the entire form of monarchy to change. Of course, in imperial China, who becomes the emperor determines the political ecology of this generation. Song Gaozong himself played a great role, he established the idea of wholeheartedly demanding peace and demanding peace at all costs, and then established the Shaoxing Peace Conference with the Jin Dynasty and killed Yue Fei. In this way, the entire political ecology after the Southern Song Dynasty continued to extend under the Shaoxing system of Song Gaozong. In this way, the first mode of rule that Liu Zijian mentioned just now is gone, and there is no ideal emperor and scholar to rule the world together, which has become a dream. The door to reform was closed. Although Wen Tianxiang was still shouting for reform, the trend of reform was not broken, and the scholars still had demands, the Southern Song Dynasty regime did not initiate a single reform.

Part of the portrait of Yue Fei in "The Four Generals of Zhongxing".

In addition, the political style and morale of the entire Southern Song Dynasty officialdom have declined significantly. It is a good scholar to go down to the people to do some work within his ability. Learning changes with the world, and the opportunistic scholars followed Qin Hui, Han Yanxuan, and Shi Miyuan to share the scraps. In addition, in the Southern Song Dynasty, to the time of Emperor Lizong of the Song Dynasty, the science of science was officially studied. Of course, the degree of harm of the official study of science had little impact in the Song Dynasty, and it was further fermented in the Ming and Qing dynasties, and the influence was later on the murder of science. It is also obvious that after Qin Hui in the Southern Song Dynasty, the monarch's power was too weak, and Han Yanxuan, Shi Miyuan, and Jia Rudao engaged in power politics.

Although the Southern Song Dynasty had the Longxing Northern Expedition and the Kaixi Northern Expedition, the economic development momentum of the entire Southern Song Dynasty was still forward, and the social economy of the entire Southern Song Dynasty was also relatively prosperous. Due to the intensive cultivation of agriculture, the agricultural output of the Southern Song Dynasty was relatively high, which could feed so many people and support the confrontation between the Southern Song Dynasty regime and the north, including some wars. It can be seen that in fact, the economy of southern China has been developing along the path of the Southern Song Dynasty. The north of the Yuan Dynasty was very devastation, and the south was always a rural society ruled by the gentry, and the agricultural economy was always developing. This is the influence of the economy of the Southern Song Dynasty.

Liu Zijian said in his book that the scholars at that time had a kind of hope, hoping that a good emperor would come out and that economic development would give birth to a good regime. But the Song Dynasty did not produce another good emperor. Liu Zijian said that this is a dream, and in fact, no matter how prosperous and redeveloped the economy is, it is impossible to dismantle the third and fourth modes of monarchical rule and return to the first form. Therefore, Liu Zijian's judgment that China had a major turning point during the two Song Dynasty periods, I think it is very profound. In the past, we said that there was a social transformation during the Tang and Song dynasties - I now use transformation to say, not to mention change, the intensity of change seems to be too great - but by the time of Song Gaozong, the Song Dynasty completely turned inward. This aftermath affected the Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties. Liu Zijian said in this book that the Northern Song Dynasty was relatively open and pluralistic, and its ideas were innovative. He believed that the ideas of science were mainly laid down by the Northern Song Dynasty, and Zhu Xi only did a comprehensive work. He said that in general, the creativity of the Southern Song Dynasty was not as good as that of the Northern Song Dynasty, and it was obviously regressed. Indeed, we can see that since the Southern Song Dynasty, Chinese culture during the imperial period has never provided the whole world with outstanding achievements in science and technology. When politics and ideas are closed, creativity declines.

《

The Spiritual Life of the Literati in the Song Dynasty (960-1279)

[美]何复平(Mark Halperin) 著

Translated by Ye Shuxun and Shan Hongze

Why was the Southern Song Dynasty able to continue?

Wei Zhou: Although the Southern Song Dynasty was indeed a little closed in terms of science, especially the science created by Zhu Xi may have been more introverted, but a relatively huge impact of the science of the Southern Song Dynasty on later generations was that the interest of scholars turned to the localities, and the rise of local township covenants and academies, unlike the Northern Song Dynasty scholars who still wanted to enter the central government, which may also have something to do with the political changes mentioned above.

Yu Yunguo: It is talked about in the book "Power Relations". It chose two points, one is to study the prime minister of the Song Dynasty, and make a statistic of the prime minister's family in the Song Dynasty, the prime minister's family is particularly developed, and there are many children. This book also compares the prime minister of the Southern Song Dynasty with the prime minister of the Northern Song Dynasty, the Northern Song Dynasty was centered on the capital, so it was called the capital elite, and the Southern Song Dynasty entered the people, so it was said that it was the folk elite. Of course, this is also related to the fact that the social and economic mobility of the Northern Song and Southern Song Dynasty is different.

At the lower level, it chose Wuzhou, which is now Jinhua, Zhejiang, and sorted out the situation of all the scholar families. The author found that the marriage relationship of scholars without bureaucratic background was in the state, and that the marriage relationship with bureaucratic background went beyond the outside. In this way, the local elite in Wuzhou and the so-called elite in the prime minister actually developed simultaneously. Personally, I believe that the so-called gentry society after the Song Dynasty gradually began to take shape from the Southern Song Dynasty. At that time, politics was darker, and there were more unsatisfactory times, and some scholars would still insist on their own ethics - my life was okay, and I would do something for the people at the lower level. Therefore, Yizhuang and so on have developed in the Southern Song Dynasty.

Power Relations: Family, Status, and State in Song Dynasty China

[美]柏文莉(Beverly Bossler) 著

Translated by Liu Yunjun

Wei Zhou: So if there is any truth in "investment cannot be made in the Southern Song Dynasty", it is because the squire society was practiced in the Southern Song Dynasty, but not in the Jin Dynasty.

The establishment of the Southern Song Dynasty is, of course, inseparable from Song Gaozong. I hated him when I was a child, because he killed Yue Fei and, of course, Qin Hui. When he grew up, he gradually realized that in fact, Qin Hui was also a tool in Gaozong's hands, which was to help him do dirty work, and Song Gaozong was the black hand behind the scenes, but his political skills were more clever. However, it must be admitted that the establishment of the Southern Song Dynasty was inseparable from him, and this dynasty had a profound influence on later generations, especially in the south.

Many years ago, when I read Jia Zhiyang's "Tianhuang Nobles", at that time, China did not pay much attention to the study of the royal family, and paid more attention to peasant uprisings and the like, so I felt different. One of the points of view, which shocked my heart after reading it at the time, was that although many people satirized Song Gaozong's escape, the establishment of the Southern Song Dynasty actually benefited from his escape. Jia Zhiyang believes that if Zhao Gou hadn't escaped at that time. Then an even worse situation will arise in China: the Jurchens will take over China not in the 17th century, but in the 12th century. If this had happened, the Song Dynasty might have perished at that time, and the culture of China as a whole would not have been the same. Indeed, King Kang Zhao Gou was the only one of Huizong's princes to flee to the south, and without him, there would be no center for the resistance movement in southern China, because there was no legitimate heir to the throne.

Song Gaozong Zhao Gou

Ge Jianxiong: Let me add an example. Some time ago, on Zhihu, many people asked me: Why did the Southern Song Dynasty persist for so long, and the Southern Ming Dynasty quickly collapsed? What is the difference? Whether it is the Southern Song Dynasty or the Eastern Jin Dynasty, it has political legitimacy from the beginning. Zhao Gou was the only one who escaped, and in fact, he didn't escape, he was sent out. So at that time, he immediately went to Shangqiu (then called Nanjing) to succeed to the throne, and this legal system was not broken. But you look at the Ming Dynasty. When Emperor Chongzhen died, he neither made an edict in advance, nor did he let the crown prince or others go south, and when he died, it was tantamount to accepting the death of the Ming Dynasty. There is not a single sentence in his edict that says what else should you do, so in this way, Nanming has no political legitimacy. At that time, King Lifu was still King Lu, and there was no basis at all. Because Zhu Yuanzhang stipulated that the clan was only allowed to enjoy himself, not to be an official, and not to take the imperial examination, neither of these two people had administrative experience. Shi Kefa also made a big mistake at that time, he thought that he needed to unite with the Qing Dynasty to destroy Li Zicheng, so as to objectively give political legitimacy to the Qing Dynasty. So the Qing Dynasty later said: We didn't get the world from your Ming Dynasty, we helped you get revenge, and then the Mandate of Heaven asked us to stay. Political legitimacy is very important. King Kang Zhao Gou suddenly had legitimacy at this time.

On the other hand, we used to think that Zhao Gou's peace talks meant that he was going backwards, that is, he was going to surrender. In fact, it should be admitted that Zhao Gou's analysis of the objective situation was correct, the Southern Song Dynasty did not have the ability to go on the Northern Expedition, and later the Northern Expedition of the Song Dynasty was defeated once and again. The Song Dynasty has always been weak, and the Song Dynasty system is to guard against local rebellions, and it is incapable of dealing with outsiders. At that time, the Jin Dynasty had already occupied the Yellow River Valley, and the Song Dynasty did not have the ability to quickly organize local armed forces against the Jin Dynasty.

During the Jianyan period, the southernmost part of the Jin Dynasty had reached Jiangxi and Hunan, and the east had reached the line of Shaoxing and Hangzhou, and Song Gaozong had gone to the island. Under such circumstances, will it really be possible to directly defeat Huanglong in a short period of time? This is impossible. So objectively speaking, Song Gaozong's crossing of the river at that time stabilized the regime of the Song Dynasty, and if he was about to go on a northern expedition, then this regime would not be able to support it in the first place. On the other hand, the Jin dynasty also did not have the ability to occupy the south all at once. Therefore, from the perspective of history, geography and other aspects, the peace between the two sides at that time was a relatively reasonable balance of power for the whole of southern and northern China. Maintaining this balance of power enabled the Southern Song Dynasty to continue.

Let me add that when I asked about the difference between the North and the South, we also need to pay attention to the demographic structure. The Song Dynasty experienced a southward migration, that is, a large number of the upper echelons of the northern elite moved to the south. During the Anshi Rebellion before, because the time was relatively short, I moved over and went back. The Southern Song Dynasty this time was relatively long, this group of people never returned, plus after the Southern Song Dynasty, there have been more wars in the north, and this group of Chinese elites continued in the south. I said that the Southern Song Dynasty was a turning point, and this turning point is that after the Southern Song Dynasty, the south was basically a continuation of the cultural accumulation of the entire north and the south, and was less affected by the foreign population. Since the late Tang Dynasty, there have been foreign ethnic groups moving in from the north, and foreign cultures have spread in, and this is also the case until the Yuan Dynasty.

Compilation of Research on the History of the Two Song Dynasty

By James T.C. Liu

Wei Zhou: Mr. Liu Zijian has indeed played a great role in promoting the study of Song history. Since the 80s, he has built a lot of platforms for the exchange of Song history research at home and abroad, so that everyone can communicate regularly. However, his work has not yet been fully introduced, and I have read his Lianjing edition of the "Compilation of Studies on the History of the Two Song Dynasty", in which there is a point of view that the Southern Song Dynasty was oriented to the southeastern overseas state. When I saw it, I felt refreshed. If you look at the map, it is easy to pay attention only to the land area, as if the Southern Song Dynasty was half of the remnants of the Northern Song Dynasty. But he explained that the Southern Song Dynasty was actually facing overseas. Why? Because the Southern Song Dynasty was financially corrupt in the early years and military spending was not settled, what should we do? If we want to squeeze the peasants, we will not be able to collect much money, and the officials may even force the people to rebel. Then the Southern Song Dynasty simply developed overseas trade and collected taxes from merchants, so that there was no need to disturb the common people, and there was more money. As a result, the Southern Song Dynasty contributed to the rise of the Maritime Silk Road, in fact, the entire southeast coast and overseas exchanges can be traced back to the Southern Song Dynasty began to appear in large quantities.

I have been to Quanzhou, Fujian Province, the ancient city of Quanzhou is now a world cultural heritage, and the local tourism slogan is "Song and Yuan Dynasty China See Quanzhou". Indeed, during the Song and Yuan dynasties, Quanzhou was similar to the status of Shanghai in China today, and it should be said that it was the center of the country's overseas trade. Among the world cultural heritage sites in Quanzhou, there is a place where the Song Dynasty's Zongzheng Division was located. It seems that the Song Dynasty arranged for the royal family to live here because of the local wealth. Liu Zijian's point of view also explains why the Southern Song Dynasty made Lin'an the capital instead of Jiankang, and many people emphasized that Dingdu Jiankang was conducive to the Northern Expedition, but what was it to flee to Lin'an? Regardless of whether this was a temporary measure at that time, or a political arrangement, objectively speaking, the influence of the Southern Song Dynasty on the trade of the southeast coast was very huge, and we can feel it until now. Therefore, a lot of history, which seems to be far away, actually traces back to the cause and effect.

(The transcript has been approved by the speaker)

The scene of the event

Picture | Siku-kun

(This article only represents the author's point of view and does not represent the position of this number)

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