Interview with Xu Anhua: Because I was not convinced, I continued to make movies丨Film and television celebrities talked

On October 29, 2021, Xu Anhua participated in the post-screening exchange activity of "The First Incense" in Shanghai. (Photo courtesy of interviewee)

On the day of winter 2021, Xu Anhua was in a good mood, she flew from Beijing to Xiamen, intending to make this the last stop of her trip to the mainland. On May 22, 2019, the new film "The First Incense" directed by Xu Anhua started on Gulangyu Island, Xiamen, and two and a half years later, she returned here with the movie. At the screening event, some audience members whispered: "I heard that this movie is not very good?" ”

"It's good to have discussion." Talking about the word-of-mouth controversy of "The First Incense", Xu Anhua's attitude is very calm, although her career has encountered many failures and doubts, on Douban, the score of "The First Incense" is only 5.6, which has become the lowest score in Xu Anhua's 43 years from the film.

Producer Liu Ren told Southern Weekend Reporter: "For various reasons, there is no premiere of "The First Incense", and this time the director came to Xiamen to thank the people who helped us in the previous shooting, which was completely at our own expense. The word-of-mouth controversy of "The First Incense" has very complex reasons, which are not unrelated to the current publicity rules of the film industry. Ann (Xu Anhua's English name) is not indifferent to this, but she often cheers me up, saying that it's okay, although she is angry, she will not be sad, she must fight back, learn from experience and continue to shoot - you see that she is a confrontational person with a revolutionary heart. ”

"Filming "The First Incense" will most likely fail"

"I've been working on this project for seven years, and it's a long story." Liu Ren, the producer of "The First Incense", said, "The First Incense is the first project I produce, and the company of Blue Bird was delivered to me by my teacher Xia Meng (Note: Hong Kong movie star, well-known patriot) before his death, and she told me to make a good movie, so I asked director Xu Anhua to make "The First Incense". ”

The film adaptation of Zhang Ailing's "The First Incense" has been around for decades. Zhang Ailing had a favorite movie star Lin Dai to play the heroine Ge Weilong before her death, and later Lin Dai committed suicide, and the matter was closed. In the 1980s, the Blue Bird Film Company founded by Xia Meng started the trend of co-production between Hong Kong and the mainland, investing in three films: "Into the Angry Sea", "From Ancient Heroes to Youth" and "Like Water Flowing in Years". Xia Meng also considered buying the copyright of "The First Incense", but because the production environment of Hong Kong films has undergone some changes, Xia Meng left the film industry, and this matter was delayed again. In the 1990s, Xu Feng, the producer of "Farewell My Concubine", bought the copyright of the novel and once contacted Yang Dechang, but did not shoot it for various reasons. Until 2014, Liu Ren, who was working in the Shanghai publishing industry at the time, chatted with friends and came up with the idea of adapting Zhang Ailing's novel in a movie.

Among Zhang Ailing's many novels, Liu Ren chose "The First Incense". After some twists and turns, in 2015, he bought the five-year adaptation rights of the novel from Zhang Ailing's copyright owner Song Yilang and began to find his favorite director. In 2016, he received Xu Anhua's approval to serve as the film's executive producer. "Ann told me at the time that it was difficult to adapt the film, that the adaptation of "First Incense" was likely to fail, and she suggested that I find a young director to shoot. Because even if it is controversial to make this movie, young people have the perspective of young people, and it is good to have controversy. Liu Ren told Southern Weekend.

From 2016 to 2019, Liu Ren has been doing various work for the filming of the film, encountered various accidents and difficulties, and seeing that the adaptation copyright is about to expire, the capital proposed to ask Xu Anhua to be the director. At that time, Xu Anhua had just finished the movie "When is the Bright Moon", she compared several job offers at hand, and finally decided to take on the directing work of this film, she found Wang Anyi, a writer who had cooperated with her in the stage play "Golden Lock", as a screenwriter, and the prototype of the movie "The First Incense" gradually took shape.

Xu Anhua was born in 1947, and when "The First Incense" was released in October 2021, she was 74 years old. In 2020, when the new crown epidemic broke out, Xu Anhua finished the post-production of the film and learned that the Venice Film Festival was going to award the Lifetime Achievement Award to himself. She is the first female director in the world to receive this honor, which is seen as a triumph for female filmmakers around the world. Xu Anhua delivered a speech in English when accepting the award, saying that she would help more young people when she went back, so that they would have the opportunity to win the Lifetime Achievement Award in the future.

In October 2020, a documentary documenting Xu Anhua's 40 years in film, "Make a Good Movie", premiered at the Hong Kong International Film Festival, and the director of this work, Wen Nianzhong, served as the art director of several of Xu Anhua's films, showing the audience some fragments of Xu Anhua's life in his later years from the perspective of friends and collaborators.

Xu Anhua has never been married in her life, and her emotional experience is almost blank, she once said that "film is her husband or wife, literature is her mistress". She only sees movies, and she often falls because she is too involved at work, and the most anxious thing is that there is no movie to make.

Liu Ren told Southern Weekend: "When we were filming on Gulangyu Island, one day Ann fell in the bathroom, because the back of her head hit the ground, which was very scary. After she regained consciousness, she immediately sent me a message saying, 'Xiao Liu, I fell, I didn't dare to move, can you come and see me?' I rushed to see that the back of her head to her neck was full of bruises, and I quickly took her for an MRI, and she told me that the first thing in my mind was that if something really happened, I would quickly call Ah Guan (director Guan Jinpeng) to come (instead of her). Ann is really a person who works so hard for movies that many times I forget that she is a seventy-something, and we will continue to work together and I hope she will make two more films before she turns 80. ”

On November 6, 2021, the movie "The First Incense" still grossed more than 60 million yuan in a bad review, and is expected to become Xu Anhua's second place work at the mainland box office. The next morning, Southern Weekend reporters conducted an exclusive interview with Xu Anhua in Xiamen. At the end, she suddenly said: "Let me also ask you a question, to be honest, what do you think of "The First Incense"? ”

Xu Anhua's film "Half Life" (1997), based on Zhang Ailing's novel of the same name, with Anita Mui (right) and Wang Zhiwen (left) participating. (Infographic/Figure)

"Eileen Chang has become an inviolable writer"

Southern Weekend: "The First Incense" has received so much criticism on the Internet this time, to be honest, I was a little surprised, judging from the score of Douban, this is the worst reputation in your career. I'm curious to know, what do you think of the word-of-mouth controversy of "The First Incense"?

Xu Anhua: I didn't expect such a big voice, but I think it's good if this play doesn't get good reviews, it can be controversial. It's good that you can openly talk about your ideas about the movie and discuss the scene together. In other social issues, it is good to talk more, maybe because of the epidemic, everyone is a little confused, and it is also an opportunity to clarify some basic concepts.

Southern Weekend: I've seen some interviews, and you said that after filming "Love in the City" and "Half a Life", you don't want to make a movie adapted from Zhang Ailing's work, but why did you still take on "The First Incense"?

Xu Anhua: It's not that I don't want to shoot Zhang Ailing, in fact, I want to shoot it, but I really didn't think about how to shoot Zhang Ailing's works to make the audience accept, or how to make people feel that the artistry of the film is on a higher level. After the shooting experience accumulated in the first two films, I realized that adapting Zhang Ailing's works is difficult to please, neither to please Western audiences, nor to please Chinese audiences. To tell you the truth, "Half Life" was rejected by the Venice Film Festival, and they originally enthusiastically asked me to bring this film to Venice, but after watching it, they thought it was a very ordinary love movie.

Later, when "Half a Life" was screened in the United States, a well-known film critic said that we could think of the film as a touching, decent romance film by a technical director like William Wyler (director of "Roman Holiday"). They look at "Half Life" in this light, so I didn't know the consequences when I made "The First Incense".

In fact, they can't tell the difference between the real scene we shot against great difficulties and the fake one, and they don't understand the background of the characters, thinking that this is an ordinary "soap opera". Because they have not seen Zhang Ailing, we have made a difficult adaptation on the basis of the original text, and they have done a lot of work, and they do not think that such a film is no different from Hollywood movies of the 1940s.

"The First Incense" and "Love in the City" both have long lines that are particularly unflattering in the movie, but if the sentences from the original book are not used, the reader will not let me go. Eileen Chang's readers will demand that your work be the same or better than the original, but I know that many of Eileen Chang's stories are not creative because her creativity lies in the way she writes, not the story itself.

I never thought about how to make it, and I couldn't make it into a niche art film, because I couldn't get money. I've heard all kinds of feedback and become more aware of how the market has changed. What's more, over the years, Zhang Ailing has become an inviolable writer, there are many fanatical book fans, they are more familiar with Zhang Ailing than me, a little mistake will be very troublesome, I know these problems deeply, but I haven't thought of how to overcome them yet.

I filmed such a story for the current "post-90s" and "post-00s", the relationship between the characters in it may not be understood, they do not know who is Uncle, what is the second room, and what is the life history of the aunt, it is not that they are ignorant, it is that there are no these things in their experience. For example, a girl, in the countryside in the 1940s, once "lost", she had to be immersed in a pig cage. Now is not the case, and it is understandable that girls covet a comfortable life. At that time, it was actually very hypocritical, everyone did not talk about money, and a woman wanted money and refused to admit it.

In this case, it is difficult to balance the story so that it is understandable and reasonable for young audiences, while also staying true to the original. I'm not defending myself for not being able to shoot well, I just want to share some of the problems I've experienced.

Southern Weekend: You seem to have said that "The First Incense" and "Love in the City" are better than the latter?

Anhua Xu: Yes, definitely. It used to be completely wrong, and now it may be a little deviation from the original, but I did it on purpose. I made "Love in the City" in the hope of making it a very touching story, but in fact, it should be the least touching story, just have a seemingly good ending, which is Zhang Ailing's creativity. But because I grew up reading a lot of romance novels, I hope that the hero and heroine have the feeling of becoming "war mandarin ducks", but they are all wrong and completely contrary to the spirit of the original book.

Southern Weekend: What did you find most difficult during the process of "First Incense" from preparation to filming?

Xu Anhua: It's already very difficult to just find funds, but it's not me, it's the producer, he has been looking for three years. After buying the copyright, people said how "The First Incense" was good (good) and how Zhang Ailing was (good), but when they really wanted to pay for it, no one came out. I don't blame them, because as long as you count, the box office is easy to calculate, this is a literary film, it may require huge funds, to reproduce the scenery and costumes of that era, I am afraid it is difficult to return the book.

On the contrary, I think that it is not too much of a problem to choose actors and group shooting team, because of Zhang Ailing's appeal, everyone is willing to try. The second difficulty is to choose the place to shoot, which is also quite twists and turns, and then I chose Gulangyu, and when it came to the real shooting, because there was already such a mature team, there was no problem.

Southern Weekend: You said that it is difficult to find money for this film, and it is relatively easy to find actors, but the most controversial part of this film is the choice of actors, have you been intervened and intervened by capital in the process of finding actors? For example, they will tell you who you should choose and who you should not choose from a box office perspective?

Xu Anhua: Yes, but it was all normal discussions, and they didn't give me great difficulties.

Xu Anhua (left) with costume director Emi Wada (middle) and producer Liu Ren (right) on the set of the movie "First Incense". (Photo courtesy of interviewee)

"I'm no longer anxious about the box office"

Southern Weekend: In the documentary about you, "Make a Good Movie", you very directly expressed that you are worried about the box office every time you finish a movie, which is quite anxious for you. Looking at your career, you have hardly stopped working, which is not easy in the Hong Kong film environment. Can you talk about your own cooperation and game with different studios at different times?

Xu Anhua: I don't need to talk about the previous difficulties in detail, and since "The First Incense", the anxiety you just mentioned no longer exists, because for me, judging the success of a film is not exactly (passing) the box office. In the seventies and eighties of the last century, Hong Kong (movies) at that time could not sell money, then there was no money for the next one. I feel that as long as I can win an award now, a small number of audiences feel particularly good, and if the director is famous, he can still find investment. Of course, it doesn't mean that you can definitely shoot the ideal thing, because the investor still has to evaluate whether the film is profitable. But I realized that I didn't have to be anxious anymore, I was anxious about not filming, not worried about others scolding or not succeeding, so this problem no longer exists.

In retrospect, every play has different difficulties, and if I say it very carefully, it seems to be a complaint, and it is not necessary. That's part of my job, don't do it if you don't accept it, and it's not good to complain all the time.

Southern Weekend: When it comes to you, everyone will think of the literary films you made, and they will say that you are very socially caring. In fact, you have also tried many types of movies, such as martial arts films and horror films, are you influenced by the market when you shoot these?

Xu Anhua: "Ghost films" such as "Ghost World" have never been popular, and few people make them; Martial arts films were once popular, and I wanted to make them because I was a "martial arts fan". I only have a few films that are completely for work, such as "Shanghai Holiday", because I was waiting for the next film to start shooting, and someone told me that the director of "Shanghai Holiday" quit and asked me if I wanted to make it, and I read the script and thought it was good. I will only shoot a script if I approve of it, and I will not shoot it without approval.

Southern Weekend: Everyone always has a feeling that the overall environment of Hong Kong films is particularly commercial, and films like your "Into the Angry Sea" and "A Thousand Words" are not mainstream enough, and almost no one makes them.

Xu Anhua: That's not it, there are actually many directors in Hong Kong who have filmed these, but the production is not much, I think there are at least a dozen, such as Kwan Jinpeng, Zhang Wanting, Luo Qirui, and our contemporary, Tam Jiaming... In fact, in the seventies and eighties of the last century, quite a few people made this kind of movie, not me alone.

Southern Weekend: Obviously you have some differences with them, such as 1982's "Into the Furious Sea", you paid attention to the theme of Vietnamese refugees, and there were very few Hong Kong directors to film people and things outside Hong Kong at that time, does this have anything to do with your personal experience?

Xu Anhua: Yes, in 1978, I was working at TVB and wanted to shoot a realistic drama "Under the Lion Mountain".

I chose this subject, did a lot of homework, and went to the refugee camp. I became interested in their previous life in Vietnam, and found that many refugees were simply Chinese, and their Chinatown was quite similar to Macau where I lived as a child, and I had a special affection for this kind of place, so I wanted to make these images into movies.

Southern Weekend: So you've always been paying special attention to social reality?

Xu Anhua: I rarely take concepts first, I first see people and things, think they are good, and then slowly ponder, and finally I will sort out a logic to answer various questions. For example, to tell the screenwriter why he chose such a story, many of them are considered as an afterthought, often on impulse at first.

Southern Weekend: I know that the reason why you took over "The First Incense" actually has some relationship with "Into the Angry Sea" because of the company Blue Bird. Why did Xia Meng invest in "Into the Angry Sea" in the general environment of Hong Kong at that time?

Xu Anhua: This kind of film has always been difficult to find money, but Xia Meng has her own ideals and her tough backstage, and they don't want to make money at all when they make this film, mainly to shoot a film with a sense of culture.

Southern Weekend: Your film debut "Mad Robbery" was a success and won the Golden Horse Award; "Into the Furious Sea" won the Academy Award, you were less than 35 years old at the time, but in the next ten years, several of your movies were not very ideal, until "Woman Forty" career improved, how did you survive in the middle?

Xu Anhua: I want to know why this is happening, is it a problem with the film, or is there a problem with me, and I don't understand society and the audience? I was actually quite curious and wanted to know why some films were bad, so I continued to shoot and shoot as soon as I could.

Southern Weekend: Looking back today, did you find that reason?

Xu Anhua: Yes, in fact, each one is different. Overall, 1985 to 1995 was the heyday of Hong Kong action films. The staff in the whole industry are used to that way of working, and they don't cooperate with our similar student homework and semi-industrial way, they all do several groups of things at the same time.

At that time, I was not in a good mood, I felt that I was out of place with them, and I did not do my job well. Because the staff makes commercial films and does several groups at the same time, they are very tired, and I will also feel that the whole environment does not support the kind of movies I make. After 1994, this wave of climax ended, Hong Kong's film industry began to slow down, and everyone almost returned to the state of one drama at a time.

Southern Weekend: Haven't you thought about transformation during this process?

Xu Anhua: I filmed "The Book of Swords and Revenge" in 1986, but it was unsuccessful. Around 1991, he filmed "Extreme Tracking", which was a gangster film and was also unsuccessful. The main thing is that I really don't like to shoot the action, I cooperate with the action director, leave it to him and don't care, and when he comes to show me, I am not used to communicating repeatedly. In fact, the action director is on the spot, and I should stay in the back and constantly study how to shoot with him, but I don't really like this form of cooperation.

Southern Weekend: So after "Forty Women," you found what kind of film was more suitable for you - maybe the investment was not particularly large, but you could maintain your own style?

Anhua Xu: Yes, that's true.

Xu Anhua's film "Love in the City" (1984), adapted from Zhang Ailing's novel of the same name, with Chow Yun-fat (second from right) and Miao Qianren (first from right) playing the male and female protagonists. (Infographic/Figure)

"I'm actually more like a mainland director"

Southern Weekend: You were one of the first Hong Kong directors to come to the mainland to film, and you lived in the mainland for a whole year when you filmed "The Book of Swords and Revenge" in 1985. Later, your "Half Life" was regarded as a model of co-production at that time. When it comes to films such as "Jade Guanyin" and "Golden Age", it can be said that mainland capital accounts for almost the main part. But you don't focus entirely on the mainland like directors like Chen Kexin. Or like Tsui Hark, he is a director of the "Hong Kong New Wave" like you, but he is also handy in shooting a theme film like "Changjin Lake".

Anhua Xu: Right. I think in the 1980s, when I filmed "Into the Furious Sea" and "The Book of Swords and Revenge", the mainland film industry was very backward. Now compared to Hong Kong, the mainland's film industry has become very developed. For example, if you walk into a late-stage company, everything is arranged and very mature.

The directors of Hong Kong commercial films and mainland directors have different ideas, they have their own ideas, but they are completely market-focused, and they pursue good looks. But in the mainland, even commercial film directors still have a set of ethics, and if they want to write the text, they must have a core theme before shooting. I'm actually more like a mainland director, and there must be a theme running through the film.

Southern Weekend: You studied literature at the University of Hong Kong, and I think you value the literary nature of movies, and you like to use some literary elements in movies, such as the poetry in "Forty Men". I think these elements are the origin of the characters in your films, and your films are different from directors such as Wong Kar-wai, and the characters always have a source, which may be a physical meaning or a spiritual meaning, and this source is often Chinese mainland.

Xu Anhua: Yes, these may be related to my experience, but they are not intentional, and sometimes I did not add them, for example, the scenes of reading ancient poems in "Forty Men" are all original by screenwriter Kishi Xi. It was a real thing in "Away Autumn Hate", and my grandfather taught me to read poetry, and I didn't add it on purpose.

Southern Weekend: The several films you made in the mainland are trying to do various explorations and attempts, "Aunt's Postmodern Life", "Jade Guanyin", "Golden Age" and so on, almost every one of them is controversial. Especially the first two, because they are modern dramas, everyone will think that you don't know much about life in the mainland.

Xu Anhua: It's good to be controversial, and there are indeed some barriers, for example, the audience sometimes doesn't like dubbing, sometimes they don't like accents in language, it's different. They are very concerned about whether the lines are good or not, but we Cantonese actually don't care much about this, and it is natural and casual, and there is no so-called training to suppress and frustrate the lines, which is a big difference. I think I may still shoot mainland life in the future, but it depends on the subject matter, of course, I can shoot, but I'm afraid it's more difficult, because I don't know a lot of details of life.

Southern Weekend: You've been filming period dramas since "The Golden Age", wouldn't it be easier to avoid these cultural barriers?

Anhua Xu: Yes, because sometimes I don't know about the Internet. Especially in this Internet era, I don't even understand food, clothing, housing and transportation, it's completely different, such as how to communicate with people, how to talk on the phone, I don't know.

"Directing is a young man's profession"

Southern Weekend: In 2020, when you won the Venice Film Festival's Lifetime Achievement Award, you said that you wanted to focus on nurturing the younger generation of filmmakers in the future. Your generation of directors is called the "Hong Kong New Wave", do you think young directors in Chinese-speaking areas can form a new wave in the future?

Xu Anhua: Just do it when you have the opportunity, I don't deliberately open a company, I'm not good at doing these things. If there is a problem, it is good to discuss it together, but it is not really a big deal.

I talked too much about the "new wave", and I couldn't stand it at first, in fact, at that time, some people who studied movies from abroad returned to Hong Kong, and they all worked in TV stations at the beginning, and they just made movies at about the same time, at that time, the traditional film studio system was a little bit unsure of where to go, and our group of people shot some realistic things on TV, and then continued to shoot them. In fact, it was not the idea of the French New Wave to revolutionize the history and language of film, it was quite prosperous at that time, and everyone had scenes to film, and they were very happy.

In fact, there have been good young people coming out over the years, but they may not be called the "new wave" because they are not so concentrated. Hong Kong is still very small, from the perspective of various film festivals mainland directors, some young people shoot very well, insist on shooting a few more films in a few years, they will become stalwarts, this is the same as the "Hong Kong New Wave", but there is no gong and drum so named, in fact, your media can really give them more exposure.

It's good to give young people a chance, but there is no need to put helping young people in their mouths and turn it into a slogan without preset, I feel that what young people need is moral support, not running to be a producer, if something goes wrong, do you change the other party, or support him to do something he doesn't agree with? I don't want to make this a full-time thing because I don't like to manage people.

Southern Weekend: Can it be understood that you don't want to care about others at work, nor do you want to be managed?

Xu Anhua: No, making a film is a highly cooperative job, how can you not cooperate with others? But I myself have some standards, what is beyond people's control, otherwise you will shoot for nothing; Some of what people can manage, just know for yourself.

Of course, it also depends on the specific situation, for example, if you really want to make a certain movie, the bottom line may become lower, or on the contrary, it will be demanding. I maintain this flexibility, I can't say what I must do in the morning, and then I may beat myself up.

Southern Weekend: You're 74 years old, and I'm really curious how you keep making movies all the time, your peers and even some juniors, many of them are retired.

Xu Anhua: I am asking this question myself, I didn't think about overcoming any difficulties when I was working, because the difficulties are certain, and the directing industry has something to do with my own inspiration and how much I want to shoot. Some people feel that they are going to make money or change their careers when they are almost shot, and this is probably not because of any setbacks. It is actually difficult for a person to make movies all his life, and directing is a young man's profession. Over fifty years old, physical strength cannot keep up, and it cannot keep up with the times.

Before I made "Forty Women", I was in my forties, and some friends told me to retire, but I was not convinced, and I had nothing beyond making movies. Of course, my example is just an isolated situation, and I can use it to give people an encouragement, but maybe it is useless, and you can't get rich as a director, and you can keep shooting if you like it.

Southern Weekend: In the past few years, the mainland film market has been particularly prosperous, and some people have the illusion that if they become a director, they can get some fame and fortune.

Xu Anhua: It doesn't matter, when you stop and why you shoot, as long as you figure it out yourself. I think everything needs to be done to figure out why you do it, not how people follow it. It's best to be a director to be able to constantly challenge yourself, and if it's the same every time, the same thing comes and goes, I probably won't continue shooting. In addition, in this drastically changing world and society, the position of the director has become very fast.

I've been thinking about what people want to watch and maybe make dramas. To be honest, the most important thing is to maintain good health, nothing can be done without this, as for what you want to shoot, whether there will be achievements, these are not guaranteed.

Southern Weekend: Speaking of age restrictions, there are not many directors in Europe and the United States who are still filming, such as Clint Eastwood, who is still making movies in his nineties, but there are almost no such directors in Asia, do you think it has something to do with culture?

Anhua Xu: Absolutely. Their team is more suitable for older directors, because the division of labor is more detailed, the shooting system is also relatively perfect, maybe 6 hours a day, they are all measured, easier, not as hard as our side, but the phenomenon you said is actually very few.

Southern Weekend reporter Yu Yaqin

Editor-in-charge: Liu Youxiang