The Beijing News reporter and Li Shaohong had two long talks. The first time was a few days before the broadcast of "Great Song Palace Words", the film was not broadcast, and the shooting has been two years, but for its presentation of the history of the Great Song Dynasty, the aesthetics of the Song Dynasty, female expression, and even the scenes in the play such as the maid blowing silk bamboo and Liu E's tea, Li Shaohong does not need any memory mobilization, she excitedly talks about these, and the artistic presentation of this drama, the use of lenses, the experimental nature of the film, etc. It can be perceived that this famous director has fully devoted his most precious three years to the historical picture of the Song Dynasty.
Liu Tao starred in "The Great Song Palace Words".
Only two weeks later, a reporter from the Beijing News interviewed Li Shaohong for the second time, and she was already at the center of the whirlpool of public opinion. In the face of the heated discussion caused by the broadcast of "Words of the Great Song Palace", Li Shaohong has always adhered to the attitude of "if criticism is not free, praise is meaningless", and even in the exchange without criticism tendencies, she will take the initiative to talk about her reflection. "Also contradictory", "completely understandable", "we can change again"... She only mentioned twice that she had been "full of tears", feeling helpless and emotional for the sadness of the female characters in the play and the loyalty of the relationship between the monarch and the courtier.
"The rational criticism of the audience, such as the handling of some of our content, and the controversy of some things in history, we can all recognize. "The Words of the Great Song Palace" is just a brick and a stone, and I think the most important role is to let everyone care about the history of the Song Dynasty, which is also very important for us today. ”
Dating back to 2000, Li Shaohong's "Daming Palace Words" with a pioneering female spirit, artistic film expression, to achieve the nearly twenty years of the most "alternative" impact of the TV drama market. After many viewers watched it many times with doubts, they gradually understood the connotation and style of Li Shaohong's works.
Twenty years later, Li Shaohong also hopes that the audience can give "Great Song Palace Words" more time, "the pace is really fast at the beginning, just consider trying to keep more information, do not compress it." I may also be a little extreme. I think you shouldn't be confused by the unfamiliar narrative method at the beginning, and you will have empathy when you watch it. Because after we get to four or five episodes, it's getting better. ”
Whether "The Words of the Great Song Palace" will suddenly open up one day still needs to wait for the audience to judge. But in the two conversations with Li Shaohong, we can still feel the unswerving persistence and dedication of this female creator who is over 60 years old to Express Chinese history and culture and women. For that reason alone, "The Words of the Great Song Palace" deserves more time.
Telling history with women is the way Li Shaohong is good at.
From "Daming Palace Words" to "Great Song Palace Words", women tell history
In 2000, "Daming Palace Words" created the classics of the times. The portrayal of the magnificent and magnificent life of the two harem women of Wu Zetian and Princess Taiping in the play is the display of female consciousness in the film and television drama.
And this way of telling history with women also makes Li Shaohong feel interesting. She has been waiting for an opportunity to continue to do the "Palace Words" series until she "meets" Liu E in the long river of history. Liu E was not the first empress of Song Zhenzong, and her story is rarely recorded in history, but she is the only woman related to politics who has been most praised by history. The History of Song once described it as "the talent of Lü Wu, but the evil of Lü Wu" (Note: Lü Wu, lü hou and Wu Zetian, from the "History of Song").
This description touched Li Shaohong very much, in her view, the shaping of historical figures is through limited and concise historical evaluation, imagining more stories and experiences. "(Behind this evaluation) The history books divide women into two categories, one is evil, Wu Zetian and Lü Hou; and the other is talented but not evil, that is, Liu E."
Zhou Yumin plays Song Zhenzong.
In addition, Li Shaohong also found the dramatic possibility of emotion in Liu E's story. Liu E is a folk daughter without any background, older than Song Zhenzong, but it is precisely like this, this "wrong door" relationship has maintained a lifetime; in the middle, they have also suffered many setbacks, lived outside the palace for 15 years, and finally had the classic stroke of "Tanuki cat for prince". All this made Li Shaohong feel too interesting. "What makes Song Zhenzong love this woman from beginning to end?" Even if her fertility is not strong, she still has to create a 'tanuki cat for a prince' to entrust his children, as well as his country and mountains, to this woman? These are the core of the drama we look for when we create. ”
In addition to the characters, the historical and cultural changes of the Song Dynasty also fascinated Li Shaohong. In the early Song Dynasty, the national and democratic movements were bumpy, the war of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms had been fought for decades, and the conquests of ethnic minorities such as the Daliao also lasted for thirty or forty years. At that time, the Central Plains were in a zone with frequent earthquakes, and natural disasters and cultural disasters broke out one after another.
But it was precisely in such a turbulent period that the territory of the Han people achieved another unification of the main regions of the north and south after the Qin, Han and Tang dynasties. After the establishment of anbang, culture, science and technology, and trade also achieved rapid development in the Song Dynasty. Song painting, Song ci, drama and economic development are in the same vein; trade has spawned the emergence of social forms... As far as China's thousand-year history is concerned, the Song Dynasty not only has a transformative significance for the development of history and culture, but also the birthplace of "stories".
"Liu E is a woman with a lot of stories, the Song Dynasty as one of the periods of prosperity and prosperity of Han culture, we have to understand our own history, which is also a period that we have to talk about." So after these two opportunities coincided, I felt that ("The Words of the Great Song Palace") must be filmed. ”
"Film technique" is Li Shaohong's "alternative" insistence
After the broadcast of "Daming Palace Words", some netizens commented that its artistic techniques were the advanced of "Shakespeare". In the "style", "atmosphere" and "artistic expression" full of film sense, Li Shaohong has created her own unique image style in the field of TV dramas. Thanks to her filmmaking background, she is better at the narrative of the times, clean scene scheduling, and the grasp of the camera in one go, and this directing technique is even more pure in "The Words of the Great Song Palace".
Li Shaohong's TV series is indeed somewhat "alternative", taking the use of lenses as an example, this time "Great Song Palace Words", Li Shaohong emphasized the sense of movement of the lens. For example, the court drama. Usually, the emperor sits on the top, the ministers stand below, talking about state affairs with each other, and the camera does not need too much scheduling, but the audience is also very difficult to enter. Therefore, Li Shaohong boldly adopted a sports lens and let the photographer "follow" all the ministers. The camera is like the eyes of the audience, moving freely among the ministers, and the audience can not only hear the ministers speak, but also see the reactions of each minister at the same time.
This puts forward higher requirements for shooting. Not only do actors need to make sure that their line skills are convincing enough; in addition, the cinematographer must also be familiar with each minister's lines and scenes. The machine can neither bump into the actor nor disturb the performance when it travels among the actors, and the actors' words, expressions, and reactions cannot be broken.
Stills from "The Words of the Great Song Palace"
"The lens change is all a response movement, which is equivalent to switching the lens back and forth between movements, so there will be no obvious sense of posing." This will produce a strong sense of human eye, there is no mandatory sense of storyboarding, can make the picture more smooth, there is a feeling of ancient paintings long rolls. Li Shaohong recalled that when shooting the scene, such a "troublesome" shooting, the big summer made everyone sweat.
However, after the broadcast of "The Words of the Great Song Palace", the audience was unaccustomed to and questioned the editing and narrative rhythm of the first two episodes, and Li Shaohong also made a reflection, "We may be a little too extreme." Li Shaohong replied frankly, "If we have the opportunity, we will definitely re-edit another version to make it more suitable for TV viewers." ”
This is not a play of young boys and girls, and actors need to have a sense of experience
"Words of the Great Song Palace" is the first collaboration between Li Shaohong and Zhou Yumin. Previously, Li Shaohong knew little about Zhou Yumin's works, but this also made her have no restrictions when casting.
Historically, later generations knew more about Emperor Huizong of Song, who was deeply accomplished in art, but Emperor Zhenzong of Song was also an underrated emperor. In Li Shaohong's view, although Song Zhenzong was literary and artistic, he was not weak. At the beginning of his reign, he was diligent in political power, which contributed to the "rule of Xianping"; later, he stabilized the Liao with the "Alliance of Liaoyuan", laying the foundation for the Northern Song Dynasty without war for more than a hundred years. "You say he's extroverted and tough, but he's not aggressive. And from his experience with Liu E, I think he must be very emotional. ”
Zhou Yumin gave Li Shaohong the impression of being "calm." His eyes seemed to reveal that he was thinking all the time, but he was not good at expressing it. Often at the end of a play, Zhou Yumin sat silently on the steps in his costume to watch others continue to perform, and rarely communicated with everyone.
"(I can feel) Zhou Yumin is under pressure, but he is not easy to show, and he is always very quiet. (I think) Song Zhenzong is probably such a person, everyone misunderstands him a lot, but it cannot be said that he does not have a brain and an idea, otherwise there will be no alliance of yuanyuan, and future generations will benefit. He is also a very heavy hearted person, and people begin to suffer from headaches in middle age. ”
The first cooperation with Liu Tao, Li Shaohong is even more amazing. "She completely melted herself into Liu E." In Li Shaohong's understanding, Liu E was originally an ordinary people's daughter, and in the end, she not only had to shoulder her husband's entrustment, cultivate a prince for her beloved to succeed her, but also bear the responsibility of the entire thousand miles of rivers and mountains, but she could not be called emperor like Wu Zetian. "Liu Tao can feel Liu E's dedication, understand why she made such a choice, and why she can bear so much suffering and pressure."
Liu E is a legendary figure in history.
Soon after Li Shaohong remembered that "Words of the Great Song Palace" had just started, Liu Tao was going to shoot the scene where Liu E sent her son to the Liao Kingdom as a proton. In this scene, Liu Tao cried her heart and lungs, and she still couldn't stop after shouting the card, just like taking her own son away. Her sincerity surprised Li Shaohong. "A lot of emotional drama Liu Tao grasped very well. A woman's affection for a child is not something that can be felt just by shedding tears, it is like cutting her heart away. As a lover, a wife, a mother, and a mother of a country, she shows love in many places, but this kind of love cannot be flooded, and it is necessary to have a sense of truth. ”
In Li Shaohong's view, "The Words of the Great Song Palace" is not a love drama of young boys and girls, but an emotional drama of two adults who have experienced changes in the world but are still dependent on each other. "So I don't care how young the actor is, or whether he is a young plum or not. Nor are we a play of green plum bamboo horses. But they must have emotional experiences and experiences. Experiences are most important to actors, and experiences establish how deep the feelings they can express. ”
One of the scenes that Li Shaohong was most impressed by was Song Zhenzong's last farewell to Liu E. Song Zhenzong knew that he would not be able to return to Taishan, and he had even arranged all the aftermath. And Liu E also sensed that she might never see her beloved again, but neither of them wanted to puncture this layer of window paper. Before leaving, Liu E dressed Song Zhenzong, and both of them were smiling and squinting. Liu E said to the most beloved person in her life, "My son and I are waiting for you to come back." Song Zhenzong walked to the door of the palace and looked back at his wife and son, with love, reluctance, and regret in his eyes.
Every time Li Shaohong saw Zhou Yumin's affectionate eyes when he turned back, it was difficult to hide his sadness, "That is a look with a sense of experience." At that time, Song Zhenzong was already more than fifty years old, so he smiled lightly and never came back. ”
——Li Shaohong Q&A——
Women's sadness and expression are worthy of the audience's patience to recall
Beijing News: What do you think is the difference between the female group portraits created in "The Words of the Great Song Palace" and other court dramas? Why does every character seem to have a tragic setting?
Li Shaohong: I think "The Words of the Great Song Palace" mainly talks about their different circumstances and different living conditions. Because every woman has her own typicality, and each person is in a different environment, then through the comparison between them, in fact, the traditional women in ancient times were in the service of imperial power. Everyone can't escape their fate, although the fate is different, but it is actually tragic.
In the era of feudalism, the era of imperial power, women were very passive in a long historical stage, and they were all defined as historical missions. Like the generation of Song Zhenzong in the "Great Song Palace Words", heirs are actually the biggest problem of imperial power. His father's generation was a brother and a brother, and when their generation returned to passing on the son without passing on the brother, and (reproduction) this matter could not be completed without a woman. Fertility has become the first major mission of women, which is also the most fundamental reason why women have become a tragic fate.
Beijing News: Most of your past works have a strong sense of female awakening and a pioneering consciousness of the times. And at a time when the awakening of women in the current society has reached a new peak, what kind of female image do you hope to give to Liu E?
Li Shaohong: Actually, I think there were also (women's awakening consciousness) in the past, but it was not as conscious and so strong as everyone is now. "The Words of Daming Palace" is also an exploration of the status of women in history. In many stages, women in history are distorted and discriminated against, and Wu Zetian is also very distinct, but she uses a kind of resistance to turn herself into a man, grasp power, and fight against fate, but she is very unhappy in the end. For example, in the end, Zhang Yizhi carried her on her back, and she said that she actually had no sense of smell anymore, and now even her children could not sit at a table to eat. So she ended up in a cold place, and this kind of struggle was also a very tragic ending.
All these illustrate the discrimination against women in ancient times and the historical perception of women. In fact, it was the same in the Song Dynasty, but the difference was that Liu E did not usurp power. Therefore, there is an evaluation of "there is the talent of Lü Wu, and there is no evil of Lü Wu". She didn't threaten men.
But both Wu Zetian and Liu E were ultimately questioned. Like in the plays we follow, a large part of the court is afraid that Liu E is not involved in politics, but is in power; including Kou Zhun, who has always supported her, is guarding against her and fearing that she will usurp power; Song Zhenzong's will also specifically mentions that Liu E cannot be allowed to usurp power, she is only an auxiliary government, if she has the idea of usurping power, she will take out my will and ensure that the concubine can become emperor. Including the misunderstanding of Liu E by the last adopted son, it seems that Liu E snatched him from his mother to raise him, but in fact, Song Zhenzong chose him. Without Song Zhenzong's participation, how could there be such a thing as "tanuki cat for prince"?
Therefore, these revealed are the definition of women given by history - you can't go one step beyond the thunder pool, as long as you cross one step, even if you are like Liu E and Song Zhenzong who suffer and share a lifetime, you will still prevent her.
We have repeatedly talked about this theme in the story of "Words of the Great Song Palace", until Liu E finally entered the Taimiao Temple and took off her Vermilion clay that can be used as an emperor, in fact, she was announcing to the world that she was not to be an emperor, but hoped to guard the Great Song Dynasty with Zhenzong. Liu E believes that they should be independent and equal, rather than (one party) holding power, so she always seeks survival and independence in contradictions.
Beijing News: Pan Yushu and Empress Guo, these two female characters, how is their sense of story and sadness different from Liu E?
Li Shaohong: The family environment and the environment in which they grew up had a great impact on ancient women. Their fate is often because of this being swayed, not because of the struggle between women.
Pan Yushu is the most humble personality that Li Shaohong considers.
For example, Pan Yushu has superior family conditions and the favor of the family, and places too high hopes on her, hoping that she can be favored by the emperor and give birth to a prince, Guangzong Yaozu. But the expectations of Pan Yushu's family for her are contradictory to the girl's own mind. She grew up in a very privileged environment, in a way more simple, without particularly complicated ideas. She didn't know what love was, only whether the emperor could spoil her and then fulfill her family's requirements. This becomes the basis of the tragedy. As a result, she and the emperor have not been married for 10 years, and she has not received the love of the emperor all her life, but she has received the so-called love in a very humble person, which I think is a special tragedy.
After these characters were filmed, Pan Yushu really wanted to cry me to death. She was the most humble personality I felt, she never expected that her parents would be implicated in her and die, and when she died, there was only a maid by her side. There was also an enemy she had always thought of as Liu E, but at this time she fully understood that Liu E was not her enemy at all, nor did she regard her as an enemy. The last conversation between these two women really made me miserable.
And Empress Guo was really a woman of the standard feudal dynasty who was raised by the Four Books and Five Classics. You can say that Pan Yushu's military attaché family is particularly vulgar, but Empress Guo is a very cultured family behind her, cultivating how tolerant she is and how to be the lord of the six palaces. But as a woman, she had never achieved anything in her life, she didn't even know what she wanted, she lived in the palace like a shadow, without herself, and in the end she realized that she hadn't actually done anything she was willing to do.
Beijing News: In the past, works telling the history of the Great Song Dynasty depicted Kou Zhun very little, but "The Words of the Great Song Palace" used a lot of space to shape the role of Kou Zhun. How do you understand the character of Kou Zhun in "The Words of the Great Song Palace"?
Li Shaohong: Kou Zhun was a very prominent figure of that era. History has praised and deprecated Kou Zhun, some saying that he is particularly good, and some saying that he is particularly unbearable, but it does not affect his key role in the course of history. In the Battle of Liaoyuan, Kou Zhun made the most important contribution. He helped Song Zhenzong complete the historic turning point of the battle, and he was a person who was indispensable.
Leung Kwan Wah plays Kou Zhun.
Kou Zhun and Song Zhenzong also fell in love and killed each other. Kou Zhun's Geng Zhi sometimes made Song Zhenzong unable to come to the stage, but Song Zhenzong felt that many of his ideas were very correct, so he was also very conflicted about this person. Later, Song Zhenzong died, and Kou Zhun did not rush back to give him a funeral. Kou Zhun was in pain and almost crashed into the coffin. That scene Kou Zhun had a large section of talk to Song Zhenzong, and the relationship between the monarch and the courtier could reach this point, which really made me tear up.
I really liked the characters of that dynasty. In addition to Kou Zhun, Ding Shu and Wang Qinruo, they all have their achievements and defects from their origins and their contributions to politics. Including Cao Jian, Guo Xian, as well as Pan Liang, Pan Bozheng, these characters, have very vivid characteristics, the group portrait represents the characteristics of that era, but also from all angles to highlight how our protagonist can have such emotions and such a story.
Ding Zhi, played by Wang Xin.
Beijing News: Can you share the dramatic role of the recently broadcast "Tanuki Cat for Prince" scene? How do you understand the play?
Li Shaohong: "Tanuki cat for prince" is actually the story of the Northern Song Dynasty's "Three Heroes and Five Righteousness". Of course, this novel is formed with many legends and folklore, it is a literary and artistic work, and at that time, in order to create the image of Bao Zheng's integrity, the story of the former dynasty "Tanuki Cat for Prince" was also attached to him. So it sacrificed the image of a woman and became a "contradiction" - the history books say that Liu E is not evil, but here it is said that she is evil. Here it has become "unjust and unjust", originally "Tanuki cat for prince" Liu E was wronged, plus she was blackened even more wronged, this matter seems to be unclear. But in fact, we want to let people see through the origin of this story that there is a reason for the "Tanuki cat for the prince".
Li Wan'er, one of the protagonists of "Tanuki For Prince".
The reason is that in the song zhenzong era, in addition to the government, heirs were the top priority of the emperor. Because his fathers and brothers and brothers and brothers, to him is to pass on the son and not to the brother, how can his imperial power be passed on in the way of the concubine, for him is the biggest thing in life. Then, on the basis of this story, it is possible to "exchange tanuki cats for princes" (this matter).
For the matter of "tanuki for prince", Liu E may be the most beloved woman in Song Zhenzong's life, and also the most recognized woman, so it is possible for him to hope that the concubine is Liu E's. Extrapolating from this logic, this concubine must not be Liu E's, so there may be a "change" of this thing; then the change must have two women giving birth to the same situation, this kind of thing can happen. Then Song Zhenzong must have a choice in this. First, if both people are pregnant, Liu E gives birth to a girl, and Li Wan'er gives birth to a boy, he may have to change because he hopes that Liu E is the mother of the concubine; there is another possibility, liu e miscarriage, Li Wan'er is born, and he also has the possibility of changing. But in fact, in the end, it was the emperor who chose Liu E.
Li Shaohong reinterpreted the "tanuki cat for prince".
So I think that "Tanuki for Prince" is a story about fertility. Whether you can see the change or not to change, the decision is in the man, not in the woman, it is impossible to deliberately drop the bag because of Liu E's vicious poison as said in "Three Heroes and Five Righteousness". If she wasn't pregnant, why should she change? If the man doesn't allow it, how can she possibly change? Logically, it doesn't make sense. In fact, we rationalized the "tanuki cat for prince" in the play.
Beijing News reporter Zhang He
Edited by Tong Na Proofreader Zhao Lin
Source: Beijing News