By Max Tessier
Translator: Qin Tian
Proofreading: Easy two three
Source: The Art of Painting (April 14, 1977)
Reporter: How did you relate to film at Waseda University?
Masahira Imamura: Around 1950, I wrote and staged several plays at this university. People often ask me what type of drama I'm interested in, and I'll answer "new drama" (modern drama), but in fact, I have a very critical eye for it, which is why I turn to cinema. At the time, I was really interested in a very popular Japanese drama, a kind of ordinary theater, a kind of kabuki aimed at the lower class.
It's a form of drama with extraordinary vitality: this explains why I made my first film, Stolen Lust, which depicts a troupe touring the theater performing this kind of drama. The male protagonist, Hiroyuki Nagato, is interested in this kind of drama, and in a way, he is obviously my stand-in. For me, the vibrancy of this drama reminds me of the early kabuki, when kabuki drew on themes from everyday life.
Stolen Lust (1958)
Reporter: You worked as an assistant director at Shochiku Film Studios from 1951 to 1954, do you have any feelings about this experience?
Masahira Imabari: When I entered Shochiku, I knew almost nothing about movies, let alone any director. When I was asked to say which director I wanted to be an assistant to, I knew only one name in Shochiku, and I replied, "Keisuke Kinoshita." - Everyone laughs, because to be Keisuke Kinoshita's assistant, you have to be a "handsome guy"... So, in a way, I casually said Ozu's name, and in fact, I ended up working on three of his films (Mai Qiu, The Taste of Tea And Rice, and Tokyo Story).
Mai Qiu (1951)
In 1954, I left Shochiku for Nissho Film Company, where I became an assistant to Yuzo Kawashima. He was a very popular director at the time. We were a very small team, in stark contrast to Ozu's spectacular filming team. However, while I may not have been influenced too much by Ozu, I learned a lot about technology from him, about how to make movies — perhaps more than Yuzo Kawashima taught me.
Reporter: You've also written several film scripts, especially with Yuzo Kawashima, right?
Masahira Imamura: At that time, my friend Yoshitaro Nomura (who soon became a director as well) and I were assistants to these big directors, and together we wrote some so-called "family dramas" – which were obviously Shochiku's favorite works. In fact, I think I learned more from Nomura Than I did from Yuzo Kawashima, even though I still wrote some scripts for Kawashima, including The Tale of the Last Sun (1957), which helped him build a reputation in Japan.
The Legend of the Sun at the End of the Curtain (1957)
Reporter: Do you think your first film in Nihon was a realistic film? The common impression is that the real "Imamura Shohei style" came with the advent of "Pigs and Battleships", is this movie a very important work for you?
Masahira Imamamura: I've always wanted to make a movie like Pigs and Warships, but I still think that my 1958 film Infinite Desires set the stage for Pigs and Warships because it presented a lot of similarities with Pigs and Warships, especially in terms of "formal vitality." If I had been more helpful in filming Infinite Desire, this would have been much more obvious. However, since Infinite Desire is only my third film, the company won't give me much of the necessary help.
The Pig and the Warship (1961)
Reporter: What is the meaning of food in the movie, especially the meaning of meat in your early films — in "The Pig and the Warship", what does the pig symbolize?
Masahira Imamura: Because the whole story revolves around the business of selling pork, its importance is beyond doubt. But of course, pigs are always seen as the dirtiest, dirtiest creatures, and that dirt has to do with the context of the characters' actions: the people living around the U.S. military base are themselves like pigs that steal their lives. Plus, I stick to the funny side of pigs. In the scene where the pigs are put on the street at the end of the film, I want them to be really "symbolic."
In fact, to achieve this effect, I wanted to shoot very fat pigs, but the budget only allowed me to shoot skinnier pigs, so in the end I just shot these pigs with close-ups. And it didn't get the "weird" effect I had hoped. In Endless Desire, Shoichi Ozawa is a disgusting little man who chews meat in a way that makes him even more vulgar and dirty.
Reporter: In Pigs and Warships, we can see the theme of the relationship between men and women, which has appeared in many of your subsequent films; despite the fact that the pimp in charge of the girl is so vulgar, she keeps coming back to him, even at the end of the movie...
Masahira Imamura: But that's my view of the "ideal" woman; she has to be strong, willful, energetic, and attached to weak men – just like me! But in Pigs and Warships, because the couple is still quite young, the girl does not succumb to her lover sexually, unlike Red Killer (1964). In any case, I think that on the surface, Japanese women seem to have changed after the war, but in reality, they have remained the same – at least most people. By the way, the same is true for Japanese men.
Reporter: Since the beginning of Infinite Desire, you have been working with photographer Masahisa Himeda, who seems to have developed a special visual style, a highly contrasting lighting style that helps create a claustrophobic feeling. Is this his usual way of lighting, or does he do what you ask when you work together?
Masahira Imamura: I first worked with Kawashima photographer Kurataro Takamura, and then with Masahisa Himeda. I have to admit, in fact, I did follow his advice in many scenes. For example, at the end of Infinite Desire, when Takeshi Kato killed Shoichi Ozawa, I had originally planned to shoot this scene with only two or three shots, but Himeda Masahisa suggested shooting it all at once and then moving it with the camera. Finally, in a typhoon, you can hardly see anything, you can only hear the character's voice, but Himeda Masahisa had the idea of illuminating the character from time to time with a lamp that swings back and forth in the wind.
Endless Desires (1958)
All of this was done in close cooperation with illuminator Hoo Iwagi. Generally speaking, we always talk about the angle of the lens, the tone of the scene, etc., but Himeda Masahisa has never liked free and open space: he always tries to put something between the camera and the characters - ladders, ropes, lights, it can be anything!
Reporter: Is the title of the Japanese Insect Book your name? It means Japanese insect chronicles. The film, and the numerous imitations that followed, made people increasingly interested in all kinds of insects: the film would also be reminiscent of the Surrealists, of Buñuel, who always put insects in his films...
Masahira Imamura: Originally, I just got the name "Insects", but because I was afraid that the audience would misunderstand the title and think it was an adaptation of La Fontaine's fable, the Nikko propaganda department wanted to add the word "Japan". In fact, I came up with the title by accident: I was drinking sake while writing the script when I suddenly found an insect circling in my ashtray from time to time.
Insects of Japan (1963)
I thought to myself, the characters in my film found themselves in the same situation, so I chose to call the film "Insects". In addition, I was dating a lot of "bad girls" (crime, party girls) who thought that once they reached their twenties, they should calm down and become "adults". This experience confirmed my belief that although Japanese women seem to have changed on the surface, their mentality has not really changed...
As for insects and surrealism, Keiji Hasebe, the screenwriter I worked with, was himself interested in surrealism and grotesque things. He suggests using weird effects as a way to dig deep into the depths of human nature: this does a pretty good job in Red Killer, but it's a little different in Insects of Japan. In this film, I emphasize more of the terrible fact that a woman's energy doesn't do much to change her situation, but instead traps them, and these characters are still submissive, dominated, sentimental women in Japanese society.
Reporter: In "Pigs and Warships" and "Insects of Japan," you show several different prostitutes, and the audience ends up looking like the only "liberated women" in Japanese society.
Masahira Imamura: That's not the case, but I'm very interested in people who have severed ties with their families and the country — I've noticed that most of the women who do that are obviously bartenders, actresses, prostitutes — just like the actors in the touring theater troupe. These characters appeal to me.
Reporter: Why did you choose the very famous actress Sachiko Zuo to star in "Japanese Insects", but let the audience be unfamiliar with Masumi Harumi to star in the next movie "Red Killing Machine"?
Masahira Imamura: I'm interested in the actress's energy and energy, not her beautiful appearance. There are similarities between Sachiko Sasuke and Masumi Chunkawa. Sachiko Sasuke shows her energy in the film Onako (1955): she runs all the time in the film — a rarity in Japanese cinema. Masaru Chunkawa is a very popular actress in Japanese theater.
Red Killer (1964)
You like to present dreams in the film, especially in "Red Killing", where there are several very beautiful, dreamy scenes: trains, nightmares, empty trams passing silently. These scenes are reminiscent of F. Sunrise by W. Maunau.
Masahira Imamura: When I filmed those scenes in Red Killing, I never considered the implications. What I'm trying to express is The constant hesitation of Sadako Takahashi, played by Masaru Chungawa: her feelings as a "mother", her attachment to a family that does not belong to her, and her irrational physical relationship with the man who raped her.
In this way, the tram scene becomes quite clear: it mainly expresses that Takahashi Sadako always returns to her family at the moment when she can escape and gain freedom. She never seized the opportunity, so her life would be set in stone. It was an ongoing struggle that was taking place within her. It wasn't because she was disappointed that she lived in the city rather than the countryside, but because she was separated from her real family — and it had nothing to do with the symbolism of the silkworm.
Reporter: Introduction to Anthropology (1966) is a vivid critique of sexual frustration in modern Japanese society. What is the direct relationship between this film and Akira Nosaka's novel? Is there any difference between them?
Masahira Imamura: One day, on the train, I read a very interesting short story by Akira Nosaka. In fact, director Keiichi Ozawa wanted to adapt the story and make it out, but the company's condition was that he would only let me direct if I was asked to write the script — so I wrote the script. But in the end, they decided to let me be the director. So, from the beginning it wasn't a project I really wanted or planned to shoot, but an interesting coincidence.
We made some changes, the most striking of which was the indulgent scene at the end – I couldn't shoot the end of the novel as it was, because the censors would end up destroying everything. In any case, I think it's normal for a film director to bring a change to a work that's being adapted— it's a way of keeping people at a distance from the original. For example, in Fujiwara's novel The Red Killer, the story takes place in Shinjuku, but I set the film's story set in Sendai City, about 250 kilometers north of Tokyo.
Introduction to Anthropology (1966)
Reporter: In "Human Evaporation" (1967), you did extensive documentary research - but the theme of the disappearance of the individual and the loss of social identity is very similar to the style of the writer Anbe's public housing, how do you think "Human Evaporation" is different from the film "Burning Map" written by Anbe?
Masahira Imamura: When I was shooting Insects of Japan, I wrote down what an actor in the film told me — I thought it was going to be a good subject, but I never had a chance to make it. However, what interested me was not in creating a well-made film, but in almost putting my notes on the screen.
For a long time, I've been interested in the problem of people who disappear in big cities without leaving any traces — what is known in Japan as "evaporation." Like suicide, this is a fairly common social phenomenon in Japan, and I feel that the idea of taking notes can replace pre-written scripts. This is particularly different from The Anbe Public Housing, where his interest in such phenomena remains rather theoretical, abstract, and literary.
Evaporation on Earth (1967)
Reporter: What kind of movie are you talking about as a "well-made movie"?
Masahira Imama: When I was making Pigs and Warships, I wondered if movies like this had too many restrictions, like those made by directors like Ozu and Yuzo Kawashima. This question deeply troubled me, and this sense of too perfect balance annoyed me, and it was after making "Second Brother" (1959) that I decided to break with this "well-made" film. I think Evaporation best shows that. But I went on to make films like Japan's Postwar History: The Life of a Barmaid (1970), which became more and more direct and less and less as a screenwriter.
Reporter: When you continue to make films, people feel that the characters have their own "road map"; they come from the north of Japan to the south, and in Desire of the Gods (1968) all the way to the southernmost part of Japan. Are you looking for the origins of Japan's primitive people, as people often say?
Masahira Imamura: Because I grew up in Tokyo, I always thought that farmers only came from the tohoku (the northern region of Honshu Island), and anyone who called themselves farmers who came to work in the city would call themselves northerners. My first film was about farmers in the Northeast. But when I returned to the South, I found that farmers were playing the instrument "shamisen" and they had more time to live — in short, I found a culture very different from the north.
The Desires of the Gods (1968)
I became very interested in this culture of leisure and entertainment, which is not typical in Japan. This is not to say that this casual culture is a culture in which everyone enjoys it, but rather that in this Southern culture, people are closer to the so-called "game people" (this concept comes from the Dutch scholar Johann Heizienha's book The Man who plays, which explores the important role that games play in society and culture).
So I want to show these people who are at odds with modern Japanese society, who live on the fringes of a very artificial, pretended democracy — Japanese democracy is just an illusion. To me, this Southern culture is much more "real", a way of criticizing modern industrialized Japan.
Do you think the roots of Japanese culture lie in these southern, isolated islands?
Masahira Imamura: Actually, I think these isolated Southerners have more in common with other Southeast Asians than the Japanese. There, a pleasant civilization was discovered, which people living in the northern regions of Japan usually dismissed. The concept of masculine beauty comes largely from the south of Japan, or from other countries in Southeast Asia, such as Indonesia and on these southern Japanese islands.
Reporter: After filming "The Desire of the Gods", why did you stop shooting a lot of "scene scheduling" films?
Masahira Imamura: Nikko Film Company was terrified by my films, and the people at the studio told me that the public didn't like the films I made. In fact, "The Desire of the Gods" was the last "unique" film I made at Nikko. Its commercial failure also marked the end of the "Japanese New Wave".
Reporter: After "The Desire of the Gods", you yourself funded the filming of "Japan's Post-War History: The Life of a Bar Waitress".
Masahira Imamura: Of course, I want to tell a different history of Japanese politics, which includes the story of a barmaid, a prostitute. In Yokosuka, I found this woman in a bar that welcomed foreigners. No one here has a family, and they make the bar their home. These women are a bit of a bandwagon and belong to the buraku. They despised Japan and the Japanese, looked for strangers to accompany them, only to find American soldiers or American sailors.
In general, the buraku broke all family ties and went to work in the city – but unlike the Jews, who usually maintained very close ties with their families. Farmers considered the buraku inferior to them and refused to accept them, so the buraku often gathered on the outskirts of big cities, where they formed their own slums.
Reporter: In the past few years, you have also made some TV movies, such as "Nanyang Sister" and "Back to the Hometown of Unable to Relax". "Nanyang Sister" focuses on the life of prostitutes in the Japanese Empire, who were sent across Asia, and many stayed there. "Back to the Homeland of Unable to Loosen" is a film of soldiers who return to Japan after years of isolation. Do you think these people despise the land of Japan?
Masahira Imamamura: I don't think these men and women hate Japan because many of them were born in the Meiji era and are still quite patriotic. These prostitutes rather mistakenly believed that they had been liberated by the arrival of the Meiji Restoration, so they faithfully supported the emperor. They credited the emperor for the freedom they had just gained – there was no one more patriotic than them!
Back to the Homeland of Unable to Loosen (1973)
But the old "Nanyang Sisters" in the film are a little afraid to go home, because she has received people from Mitsubishi Corporation. They felt that Japan would be another foreign country, not the idealized homeland in their minds. When I went to Sasebo and Yokosuka, different cities with U.S. military bases, I realized that about 10 percent of the girls were buraku.
Nanyang Sister (1975)
Reporter: You must have seen another movie about nanyang sister's life, "Wangxiang" directed by Kei Kumai, what do you think is the connection between it and your "Nanyang sister"?
Masahira Imamura: Someone once suggested that I adapt Tomoko Yamazaki's novel, but I refused because it was too sad and only showed the sympathetic side of Nanyang Sister. When I met the real Nanyang sister, the woman in front of me was still very alert and still had a high fighting spirit – a far cry from the depressing side of the novel.
Other older women I met told me that they had all been deceived and that they had been forced to be sent to those countries. I thought it was strange because someone had to know exactly what was going on, and it was hard to ignore the fate of these women at the time. I think there must be another reason – it's likely that they want to run away from their families and leave Japan. In them, I discovered the energy of the heroine of my film Insects of Japan—an energy that I emphasized in that film.
Wangxiang (1974)
Reporter: Now, you have started a new project - a new film based on Ryuzo Sasaki's novel, Revenge on Me. Does this film have anything to do with your previous work?
Masahira Imamura: Yeah, I really wanted to make this movie because the heroine reminded me of those scenes from my previous films, and there were a lot of scenes that reminded me, at least to some extent, of Japan's Postwar History: The Life of a Bar Waitress. But given the current situation, making this film would be difficult. In fact, this is a film that was actually shot by Shochiku.
Revenge on Me (1979)
The company's executives have read the script, but judging by the way they interpret it, the future of shooting is not optimistic: we see the film in the opposite direction. But for now, that's the only solution, because the film needs a suitable distribution network that only big companies can provide.