Zuckerberg's in-depth interview: The AI competition between China and the United States is completely wrong, and United States should not want to lead China for a long time

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2024-07-24 18:30Posted on the official account of Yunnan Zhidong

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Mark ·Zuckerberg, founder and CEO of 01Meta, said in an interview that United States's advantage in the field of AI is difficult to maintain a long-term lead, and in fact, a 6-8 month lead is not bad.

02Zuckerberg believes that openness and decentralization are the ingredients behind United States' success, not overinvestment.

03He plans to create AI social media to help people with some difficult social activities, such as role-playing and braiding.

04However, Zuckerberg praised Altman (OpenAI CEO) for his leadership, believing that he handled public scrutiny better than himself.

05 In addition, Zuckerberg said that Meta will make Meta AI the most used AI assistant by the end of this year.

The above content is generated by Tencent's hybrid model and is for reference only

Zhidong reported on July 24 that last night, when Meta launched Llama 3.1, the strongest open-source model with 405 billion parameters, Bloomberg released an in-depth interview with Mark Zuckerberg, founder and ·CEO of Meta, who accepted an in-depth interview with well-known technology reporter Emliy Chang.

In this interview, Zuckerberg reveals how he decided to build an open source platform. He said that the company has been constrained by platform companies like Apple in the past when developing products, and in this wave of technology, he hopes to build and control its own platform through Meta's investment in AI and VR/AR, and make Meta AI the most used AI assistant by the end of this year.

When it comes to Llama 3.1, Zuckerberg believes that this model can be a teacher for the customized model that many companies need. In the future, he plans to create AI social media to help people complete some difficult social activities. He also revealed that Meta is now working on Llama 4.

The original Facebook company changed its name to Meta in 2021 and increased its investment in the metaverse. Zuckerberg also admitted that he did not expect AI to come before AR, but he still believes that VR/AR is one of the important technology trends in the future, and they are preparing for it.

AI is an expensive game, with Sequoia Capital calling it "a $600 billion problem." Zuckerberg argues that there is a real problem of overinvestment in AI right now, but historically, many bubbles have ended up becoming valuable as well, just not as quickly as people might expect. Overinvesting now is preparing for the future, while also avoiding the risk of falling behind in technology.

Zuckerberg's wife, a United States of Chinese descent, is also interested in China. When it comes to the competition between China and the United States in the field of AI, he believes that it is difficult for United States to maintain a 5-10 year technological lead over China, but in fact, 6-8 months of leadership is already good. He also opposes United States' closed approach to AI technology, arguing that openness and decentralization are the ingredients behind United States' success.

Zhang Xiuchun also threw a rather difficult question to Zuckerberg: What do you think of Altman (CEO of OpenAI)? Zuckerberg rounded up in his answer, saying that Altman "did a better job of dealing with public scrutiny than he did." However, he also thinks that OpenAI is doing "closed-source" work in the name of "open", which is really funny.

Facebook has been controversial for political content on the platform, and Zuckerberg said that in this election year, Meta will reduce the political content recommendations of its platforms and pay more attention to the social attributes of the platform. He himself will reduce his political involvement, and he will not take sides in this election, but he does feel that Trump's "life photo" is ignited.

Outside of work, Zuckerberg is the father of three daughters, and he uses Meta AI to generate pictures and braid his daughters, but according to his wife, the children dislike Zuckerberg's braiding skills. Teens in United States are facing a mental health crisis. Zuckerberg said that he knows the hard work of being a parent, and Meta will also provide parents with enough control to ensure that the operation of the social platform meets the expectations of parents.

The interview took place at Zuckerberg's vacation home on the shores of Lake Tahoe in the United States. He loves surfing and combat sports, and his ·wife, Priscilla Chan, said Zuckerberg has a lot of energy to work all day long, play sports and take care of her children, and she can't keep up with Zuckerberg herself. But Zuckerberg's favorite thing is innovation, "Surfing is fun, fighting is fun, but building something new is fun." He is optimistic about the future of AI and technology, and although there are many challenges along the way, he believes that the possibilities are endless.

▲Zuckerberg was interviewed by Zhang Xiuchun on the shore of Lake Tahoe (Source: Bloomberg Original)

The following is a complete compilation of Zuckerberg's interview (in order to improve readability, Zhidong has adjusted the order of some questions and answers, and made certain additions, deletions and modifications without violating the original intention):

1. Open source is to build its own platform, and I am determined not to be controlled by others

Emliy Chang: I found a 2003 article in the Harvard newspaper where you were talking about open source. Have you been thinking about this for a long time?

Zuckerberg: Yes, open source culture is a big part of the tech industry. Without open source, I wouldn't have been able to make an early version of Facebook. I used to be just a student, so I didn't have much money. Students also have a "hacker mentality" and only think about getting the code and using it for what they need, which is of course more cost-effective.

▲ An article about Zuckerberg in the Harvard school newspaper (Source: Bloomberg Original)

Emliy Chang: Some people don't think you're much of an open source advocate, you know why they think that, right?

Zuckerberg: yes, I know why you think that. However, Meta has always been a strong supporter of open source. This model is also great for our company itself. The idea of open source is embodied in our server design and data center design. We also have the Open Compute Project, which standardizes much of the industry's infrastructure. And in the field of AI, a similar situation will happen.

Emliy Chang: By open-source your models, you have become an important force in the future development of AI. Is there a consideration behind the decision to open source that you are trying to influence or control the next wave of technology?

Zuckerberg: For the last 10-15 years, we've built our apps largely on mobile platforms, which are in the hands of our competitors. It is precisely because of this competition that when we build something that we think is good, we may be told by a company like Apple that we can't release it, or that we want to restrict certain features, which is a big blow to us.

Now we're a big enough company. I'm also determined that I want to be able to build and control our own platform in the next generation of technology. AI is a key area of this, and AR/VR is another important area. To take control of our own destiny and make sure we have access to the most cutting-edge AI technology, we need to develop our own AI technology and make it the industry standard. We can also make this technology even more powerful by sharing our AI technology and building an ecosystem centered around it.

Second, Meta AI wants to be the first in the world by the end of the year, and Llama 3.1 is the best teacher for models

Emliy Chang: You're continuing to improve the Meta AI embedded in Meta's products, while also bringing Meta AI to market as a standalone chatbot. Why should we choose Meta's products over ChatGPT?

Zuckerberg: There are a lot of things that we do better than ChatGPT. One of the features we're coming soon is "Imagine". My daughters and I already use this feature a lot, and Meta AI can generate images in real-time while you type in your queries.

While Meta AI has only been released for a few months now, my goal is for Meta AI to become the world's most used AI assistant by the end of the year. I think we're on track right now, and there are hundreds of millions of people using this product right now, and it's very likely that we won't be able to get there by the end of the year.

▲Meta AI的用户界面(图源:Bloomberg Original)

Emily Chang: You have released the Llama 3.1 series of models, which come in a variety of sizes, including the largest open-source model ever built, with 405 billion parameters. What do you think this leap in parameter scale could unlock?

Zuckerberg: Since this model is open source, I think it's mainly possible for people to think of it as a "teacher" for other smaller models that they can use as a basis for training models for different applications. Startups, all businesses, and even governments, may need a customized model. It is difficult for them to use various closed-source models on the market to make custom models, such as Google's Gemini or OpenAI's models.

One of the core philosophies of our company is that we don't want one AI to dominate the entire market in the future. Our vision is that there should be millions or even hundreds of millions of different models on the market. At the same time, I also don't think AI will be a god. If you're stuck in an organization that thinks you can create superintelligence, there's a good chance you're thinking you're "creating God." But I think this perception is wrong and very unappealing at the same time.

There are nearly 200 million creators on our platform. They are all trying to build their own communities, and users want to interact with them. I want each of them to be able to easily train their own AI and build it according to their own ideas. It's like a kind of artwork that the creator has put out to their community, which can not only interact with the community, but also ensure that the way of this interaction is controllable.

3. Plan to build an AI social network, hoping to use technology to achieve better social networking

Emily Chang: I'd like to know a little bit about your macro strategy and how you got there. Will we have AI-generated influencers in the future? Will there be AI-generated text content, and will AI-generated real-life avatars interact with each other? Do you want to create the world's first AI-generated social network?

Zuckerberg: yes, the scenarios you mentioned earlier should all come up. Creating AI-generated social networks is certainly part of this. In fact, this is already one of the top four use cases for people to use Meta AI, and it is also one of the most interesting use cases.

People will use AI to role-play and simulate some of the more difficult social interactions. Whether it's in the workplace, such as asking your manager for a raise, or having some difficult conversations with friends or partners. I can even use AI to role-play and simulate this scenario before today's interview. It's just a tool, and there won't be any social consequences for what you talk to the AI.

Emily Chang: But what evidence do you have that people really want to live in this virtual world and socialize with real human avatars? Or is it good for us?

Zuckerberg: I think people use social networks essentially to connect with other people, and everything else is just noise. The technology we have in place allows us to socialize better. When I first started using Facebook, it was mostly text. With the advent of smartphones, we started taking pictures. Improvements in the mobile network have also made it possible to share videos, which contain much richer content. Watching videos is a better experience, but I don't think that's the end. I hope the experience will become more immersive.

Fourth, it is also necessary to overbuild, and AI is a valuable bubble

Emliy Chang: You renamed the company Meta, and you're still pouring billions of dollars into the metaverse. Is our future path the same as you envisioned? What are the lessons behind this sudden turn?

Zuckerberg: A big part of our sudden U-turn is that we're starting to be classified as a pure social media app company. The metaverse is definitely a long-term investment, and I think some things are better than I thought they were, and some were slower than I thought. Glasses are certainly an example of how things are progressing better. They are stylish and make a good pair of glasses in their own right. It's also a great form of using AI.

When we started this project, we didn't know that AI would become so important. We think AI could be 10 years from now. If you asked me my opinion 5 years ago, I would definitely think that AR would come before AI. So the reason behind that we adjusted at that time was also just to be prepared to ride the different waves when they came.

Emliy Chang: Sequoia Capital calls AI a "$600 billion problem." A lot of the investments are going to chips, infrastructure, data centers, and more, but when will they pay off from those investments? Do you think AI is a bubble? If not, when do you think you will start profiting from it?

Zuckerberg: I think the concept of bubbles is intriguing. In fact, it is only a matter of time before many of the so-called bubbles eventually become valuable over time. Even the dot-com bubble, such as the massive laying of network cables at the time, still became valuable in the end, but not as quickly as people thought. I don't know how AI will eventually evolve, it's still hard to predict. But I think AI will be an important foundation for the world of the future.

I think a lot of companies are overbuilding right now, but it's a big opportunity. Looking back, you might see that we all spent billions of dollars more. But from another point of view, I think the companies that are investing in these infrastructures right now are rational. Because if you don't invest, you risk being technologically backward for the next 10-15 years.

5. The Llama 4 study has begun, with the goal of completely eliminating the gap

Emily Chang: You said your goal is to achieve Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), how do you define AGI? Will you implement AGI first?

Zuckerberg: We're already working on Llama 4 at the moment, and our goal is to completely eliminate the gap between us and other companies. On the way to AGI, I think there are some important breakthroughs that need to be achieved, so it's hard to directly predict whether we will be the first to achieve AGI.

There is also no clear definition of AGI at this time. But I think intelligence is pluralistic, it's not just a number, it's all kinds of aspects, all kinds of modalities. I think one day we will realize AGI, and we want to create a variety of AI systems that help people do what they want to do. I think in the end it's a good thing for the world.

6. Critical thinking and value building are important, and playing multiple roles enriches personal experience

Emliy Chang: What should children learn today?

Zuckerberg: I think the most important thing is to learn to think critically at a young age and build your own values.

It's actually very much in line with my own values when I was hiring. If people have shown that they have the ability to do something deeply and well, then they may have mastered the skills to learn things well with ease. This is great for other things as well.

Emliy Chang: It seems like you're always doing things with your all, you're going to do sports, you're doing other projects, you're also going to be a dedicated CEO, and you're going to be a good dad. How do you make time to get these things done?

Zuckerberg: I think getting a balance on these things actually helps you do these things better. I'm really a very focused and demanding person, but I also take into account the feelings of the other people I work with, don't focus too much on one project, I want to make sure that people have space to do what they want to do. The biggest advantage of being such a well-rounded person and constantly learning is that you can have many different experiences.

▲Zuckerberg hugging his daughter (Source: Bloomberg Original)

7. United States cannot maintain a 5-10 year lead over China, and only by openness and decentralization can we continue to innovate

Emliy Chang: You've always been interested in China, you've also learned Mandarin, do you know anything about China's progress in AI and AGI?

Zuckerberg: I don't know much about it myself. But United States does face the question of how to deal with competition with China. There's a perception that we should shut up all technology, and I think that's completely wrong. Behind United States' success is open and decentralized innovation, and that's how our economy works. But I think it's also important for the current industry leaders to work with the United States government to ensure that we continue to improve and maintain a first-mover advantage in technology.

Emliy Chang: So that's how we win this AI war?

Zuckerberg: The question is, what exactly are we trying to achieve? Do we want to be 5-10 years ahead of China? I don't even know if it's a reasonable goal, it's hard to keep that lead. I think the more reasonable goal is to lead China for 6-8 months for a long time through the continuous innovation of United States companies in the field of AI, which is already a big advantage.

8. Altman is more public relations than I will, and the current situation of OpenAI is ironic

Emliy Chang: There are a lot of players in this space, what do you think of Sam ·Altman's leadership?

Zuckerberg: He has contributed a lot to the development of OpenAI. At the same time, I, like him, have been publicly scrutinized and monitored. I didn't handle these issues well myself, but I think Altman handled it elegantly and I think he did it better than I did.

But I think it's kind of ironic that an organization called OpenAI is now a leader in the field of closed-source models. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's kind of funny.

Emliy Chang: Whether you agree with those accusations or not, Facebook and you do face a lot of criticism. Why should we trust your AI?

Zuckerberg: We've been blamed for a lot of things. We are also taking these issues seriously and are already doing our best to deal with them. I'm not sure it's fair to treat us that way, but as a significant company, review and regulation are generally beneficial.

One of the definitions of open source is that anyone can review the product. I think it's putting a lot of pressure on you to make sure that the quality of the product improves quickly.

9. There will be no sides in this election, and the company will reduce the recommendation of political content

Emliy Chang: I want to talk about the 2024 presidential election. Facebook has been the focus of many elections around the world, and you were recently named by former President Donald Trump. This is a major election, what do you think the impact of this election might be?

Zuckerberg: This is obviously a very important election, and this is going to be a historic election. The feedback I've received from users is that they actually want less political content on our platform. They use our services to socialize and stay connected with people, which is something we need to do. We're giving people choice, but we're also reducing the number of political content we recommend in general. I'm sure you'll see that our products won't be as big a part of this election as they were in previous elections.

I've been politically involved myself in the past, and I'm not going to do it this time. I will not support any candidate. But right now, there's some, lots and lots of crazy things going on. That photo, Trump raising his fist against the backdrop of the United States flag after being shot in the face, is probably one of the most powerful things I've ever seen in my life.

In a way, as an United States, it's hard not to be moved by this spirit. I think that's probably why many people like him as well. But the role of our company is to give everyone a voice on this matter. This is the most important role we should play well.

10. The mental health crisis cannot be attributed to social media, and the virtual world and the real world do not conflict

Emliy Chang: United States is facing a mental health crisis, especially among teenagers. The United States health secretary has called for social media to be labeled as a warning, saying social media should be partly responsible. In terms of everything you know now, does he have a point?

Zuckerberg: There's clearly a mental health problem in United States. I believe that it is particularly important for children and adolescents to address this issue, and it is right to focus on it. I have 3 daughters myself, and they are very young. Being a parent is hard and we just want to make sure our children have a good life. From that perspective, my goal is to structure our services in a way that meets the needs of parents, giving them the control they need to monitor exactly how our services are working.

The results of the current data show that are different from what is commonly believed. Many people behave as if psychological problems are really linked to social media. I don't think the current research proves that. The constant reminders of messages on your phone itself may also affect your mental health, but it's not the same as social media. Of course, the problem does exist, and we want to be a part of solving it.

Emliy Chang: A lot of the things you're doing now make the world a little more virtual, but you also love a lot of things in the real world. How do you balance these two goals?

Zuckerberg: I don't know of any contradiction between the two. A group of people in the tech world believe that we can extract our consciousness and intelligence from our bodies and upload them to the cloud. This seems ridiculous to me. Part of what makes you human is that you are an active entity with your own energy, and we are not just something in our brains. Our energy, our love, are very necessary things for human beings.

11. Surfing and fighting are fun, but building something new is the most fun

Emliy Chang: You've been in this business for over 20 years, how much longer do you want to continue doing it? You already have a lot of things.

Zuckerberg: yes, surfing is fun, fighting is fun, but I think building something new is the most fun. At this point, I'm thinking about what I'm building on a 10-15 year scale. I think it could take 10-15 years for AI to be fully realized, and the same goes for the next generation of computing platforms that we're doing. My guess is that by then there will be new technologies.

▲扎克伯格在冲浪板上喝啤酒（图源：Bloomberg Original）

Emliy Chang: From the perspective of the tech industry as a whole, it seems like we're doing a massive experiment on humanity on its own, how does that end up?

Zuckerberg: I'm not sure there's going to be a so-called ending. I think there will be a lot of development in the future. I know there are a lot of people who are worried about whether AI will limit our creativity, and I think the opposite is true.

When I started my business, I needed to know a lot of programming to realize my idea, but in the future, we probably won't need that knowledge. Just express what you want to build, and the AI system will help you write the code you need. Of course, we will face all kinds of challenges along the way, but I am still very optimistic about the future of technology.

来源：Bloomberg Original

Compiler: Chen Junda

Editor: Panken

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