In the MPW Zero Dialogue series, we invite some of China's most well-known and influential female leaders to discuss topics of common concern to all of us today, and extract calm and rational wisdom from passionate and witty conversations.
In this issue of Zero Degree Dialogue, we take a look back at a special conversation at the inaugural Fortune Innovation Forum recently held in Hong Kong, China. What was special was that the participants in the dialogue were all women, who had come together for the first time as outstanding representatives of their fields, and the discussion was more frank than expected, and the whole conversation was filled with applause and laughter.
The context of this conversation is that we note that less than 6% of the companies on the Fortune Global 500 list released last year had female CEOs. That is, only 29 out of 500. Compared to the previous year, this figure is actually an increase of 20%, but it is far from enough.
On these topics, Bonnie Y Chan, Chief Executive Officer of HKEX, Kathryn McLay, President and CEO of Walmart International, Joey Wat, CEO of Yum China, and Jane Sun, CEO of Trip.com Group, shared their views on Fortune Claire Zillman, Senior Asia Editor, had a lively discussion.
Ting Chan is HKEX's first female CEO, Kathryn McLay leads a team of 500,000 employees serving 80 million customers in 18 countries every week, the company expands at an average rate of more than two new stores per day under the leadership of Wat Cuirong, and Jie Sun manages Asia's largest online travel agency.
The following is an edited transcript of the conversation.
At the breakfast meeting of the Fortune Innovation Forum, guests discussed the theme of "Bridging the Gender Gap". From left to right: Yum China CEO Tsuisan Qu, HKEX Chief Executive Officer Edwin Chan, Ctrip Group CEO Jie Sun, Walmart International President & CEO Kathryn McLay, and Fortune Asia Senior Editor Qi Yueman.
Qi Yueman: It's a pleasure to host this discussion of the star lineup. First of all, can you tell us which important decision in your career has made you who you are today?
Kath: There were a lot of small decisions, I remember when I was in my 30s, sitting at the board table and looking around and I was the only woman, the only person in my 30s, and I was very different from everyone else at the table.
I found that other people would take up a lot of space and speak in a much lower voice than I did. I thought to myself, well, if I'm going to show my importance, I'm going to have to be like them. At the first board meeting, I drew a scoop from a gourd. But I'm not that kind of person. It was only later that I realized that there is power in being unique and that I should always bring out my differences. It's been a great benefit to be true to me.
Trip.com Group CEO Sun Jie
Sun Jie: I would like to share two very critical moments for me. I have been in the United States for almost 20 years. The first store I went to in the U.S. was Walmart, so I admired Kath's company. In 2005, one of Ctrip's founders wanted to make a big change, and the board approached me and asked if I would like to go back to China and become Ctrip's CFO.
At that time, I had just given birth to my second child, and I was only 1 year old. So I needed to make a quick decision, and I asked myself three questions. First of all, where do I want to spend the next 20 years? At that time, China's GDP growth was about 8 to 10 percent, and the United States was about 2 to 3 percent. I feel like there will be more opportunities in a fast-growing environment.
The second question is what kind of industry do I want to work in? If I'm in the gaming or tobacco and alcohol industry, it's easy to make money. However, if I work in an industry that I don't like or don't trust, I always feel a little sorry. And tourism, to some extent, is greener. Every family wants to educate their children through travel. Communication between people is also very important, and it's an industry that I'm very passionate about.
The third question is which company I want to work for? I think Ctrip offers the best opportunities. So at critical moments, always ask yourself what you're passionate about and then make the right decision.
HKEX Chief Executive Officer, Tim Chan
Chen Yiting: Thank you first for saying that we are stars, this is probably one of my dreams of girlhood, but unfortunately it was not realized. Next, answer your question. Some people may know that I came from a law school, and after graduating from law school, I naturally became a trainee lawyer, and then became a lawyer, and I worked for about seven or eight years, and in about 2000, the opportunity came. When I was thinking about this new opportunity, I wondered, would my lifelong career goal be to be a partner in a law firm? I wanted to be a chef and I had applied to culinary school in New York. But in the end, I didn't know what was going on, and I chose to enter the investment bank. Looking back, it was a pivotal juncture when I stepped out of my comfort zone for the first time and switched careers.
Whenever a new opportunity presented itself, I didn't ask myself why I would accept a job, but why I didn't accept it, and it really changed the way I thought. The desire to learn about a new industry, a new company, and a new job has led to who I am today.
Yum China CEO Qu Cui Rong
Qu Cuirong: I also resonate with the topic of "being yourself". I first became CEO in my 30s and managed a retail business in London, England. Why did I go to the UK? The real reason may be disappointing for all of you. I went to England because of a man who is sitting in this room right now.
But I definitely have to have a job in the UK and I have to continue to pursue my career. At that time, there was an opportunity for bankruptcy and restructuring of a company, and I was called to see it. No one believed the opportunity had come, except for me and my boss at the time, Canning Fok. Many years later, I asked him why he chose me to move from strategy to retail to manage a bankrupt business. He said that because no one else wanted to take the job, it was true, and everyone thought it was a hot potato.
Ten years ago, I was given the opportunity to join Yum Group. Yum was also in a period of transition at the time. In China, both KFC and Pizza Hut experienced double-digit negative growth. For those of us in retail, know what that means. But why did I come back to China? for another man, my son. He was four years old at the time, and I thought it was a good time for him to learn Chinese. So we moved back, took the job, and became CEO. So stay true to yourself, be sincere in the face of what you really care about and believe, and then work hard to achieve your goals. And I lowered my expectations very low, so the results were better than I expected.
Kathryn McLay, President and CEO of Walmart International Business
Qi Yueman: Kath, when you took over as CEO of Walmart, there was a very special situation, that is, the previous CEO was also a woman. In today's business world, such transitions are rare. What do you think contributed to this?
Kath: I think it's interesting that at Walmart, the transition from woman to woman is just a normal thing, but it's amazing to the outside world. In fact, these stem from our pursuit of diversity of thought. Once you focus on diversity of thought and diversity of opinions, you will naturally get a better gender balance. If you create an environment that welcomes different ideas, you can make women stand out.
Qi Yueman: Sun Jie, I want to ask you a similar question. Has Trip.com implemented policies to promote the development and promotion of female talents?
Sun Jie: Of course. The Internet industry is still dominated by men. I am the only female CEO of this Internet giant, and I am glad that I have this opportunity and a huge responsibility to pave the way for our female leaders.
Ctrip has a series of policies in place to empower women. For example, we provide free taxi transportation for female employees when they become pregnant, and education subsidies for the birth of a baby. Recently, we have also found that many capable female employees are already 27 or 28 years old after receiving their PhDs. Pregnancy after the age of 35 is actually classified as high-risk by doctors. So, we really only give these capable women about seven or eight years to start a family, start a business, and have children. Compared with male leaders, women have much more time to work hard in their careers.
So I was thinking how best to encourage our female employees, great female leaders? So Ctrip developed a policy that if they were willing to use high-tech egg freezing, we would pay for it, and we were the first and only high-tech company to have that policy.
But no matter how good your intentions are, there will always be people who misunderstand, so we also have to stand up to the media and defend this policy. This policy is really up to personal choice. If you don't like it, you don't, but it's better to give female employees more options than no other choice. That's why a lot of Ctrip's female employees really like this policy. Last year, Ctrip stepped up the policy again because China has been affected by the one-child policy for the past 30 years, and if we don't increase the birth rate, the one-child policy will have a lot of impact. So as a company, we take the initiative to respond to initiatives. Employees who have been with the company for more than 3 years, regardless of gender, will receive a subsidy of 10,000 yuan per year for each child born until the child reaches the age of 5. Ctrip will invest 1 billion yuan in this project.
As a result, more than 50% of Ctrip's employees are women, more than 40% of middle managers are women, and more than one-third of senior executives are women. I feel like we can do better. Ctrip is constantly working to develop new policies to empower women in leadership.
Qi Yueman: The Hong Kong Stock Exchange requires that listed companies cannot have all-male boards, and Chan Yiting, you are one of the driving forces behind this initiative. Why did you launch such an initiative, and how are listed companies doing in this regard?
Chan: First of all, the Hong Kong Stock Exchange is in a special position as a company and a regulator, and we are very cautious about initiating change. But at the same time, we can make the rules.
In today's roundtable, we can see the success stories of two Hong Kong Stock Exchange listed companies who are actively advancing diversity and gender equality. What you're just talking about is actually an initiative that we've been working on since 2019, when we made it mandatory for the first time that all companies listed on our exchange — about 2,600 of them — have to have a board diversity policy in place, and that's been mandatory since 2019. But we're finding that progress is very slow. In 2020, the proportion of female directors of all listed companies in Hong Kong was only 14.6%, which is too low.
I admit that there is controversy on this topic, and from a global perspective, different exchanges, different markets have a variety of measures and policies to facilitate this process. As far as Hong Kong is concerned, we feel we can try to be brave and make it mandatory. Therefore, starting from 2022, the Hong Kong Stock Exchange has made it mandatory for every listed company in Hong Kong to eliminate a single-gender board, which will be completed by the end of this year. At the same time, starting in July 2021, we have refused to accept listing applications from companies with only single-gender boards.
We've made some progress since then. I remember when this new rule was first introduced, all of the 800 or so companies on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange had single-gender boards. It has now been reduced to 500. It is believed that in the next two months, the momentum of the reduction will accelerate, as it is the shareholder meeting season, which is the time to appoint new directors. We are satisfied with the overall process. As I said, different markets have different considerations. But as far as Hong Kong is concerned, at least we have taken a step in the right direction.
As Kath just said, when companies realize the benefits of diversity to the board, it actually makes the business more inclusive in terms of perspective, which may allow them to make better business decisions. At this point, I think regulation can take a step back and let the market and companies decide for themselves how they want to move forward.
Qi Yueman: You mentioned that the proportion of female directors in Hong Kong is lower than that in New York or London, why is this problem more serious in Hong Kong?
Chen Yiting: This is just my personal observation, and it may be a bit generalized. Many companies in Hong Kong are family-owned. In traditional Chinese thinking, it is "patriarchal". So for so many years, family businesses once accounted for the majority of listed companies. This is one of the reasons I think, and the other reasons, such as what Sun Jie just mentioned, the golden age of a female manager entering the board often overlaps with the time when she wants to start a family and have children, and so on. So we're going to find other ways to compensate for that.
Qi Yueman: What happens if the company doesn't comply with the gender rules of the board?
Chen Yiting: This is an important question. We want companies to comply, but they're running out of time to implement because it's already the end of March and by the end of the year they have to do it all. This is also a topic we are discussing, what is the punishment if they don't comply. I think the lowest punishment is to name and criticize, but we've been actively engaging with companies that are still single-gender directors to get them up to speed.
Qi Yueman: Qu Cuirong, from the perspective of your industry, do you see any measures that can really promote diversification?
Qu Cuirong: First of all, I've always been very optimistic. Mankind has a history of thousands of years, and it is only in the past 100 years that women have had the opportunity to receive education on a large scale and be able to work. Think about how we're going to be women in 100 years, and I'm probably more worried about my son. So don't be so negative. I think we're doing a great job. We've all been able to contribute, including a lot of men.
I'd like to share some of the things our company does that I hope will inspire those of you who are here. Yum China has 430,000 employees, more than 50 percent of whom are women, and 40 percent of its board of directors are women. In our annual report, the emphasis is not on women, but on both genders, and there are only a handful of companies like that. We take great care of the men in our company, are friendly to them, and even take care of them. We embrace men and women to create a better environment and a better world together.
What could we have done better?
When we joined Yum China, we had a high-level vacancy, but the candidates were all men. I guess how is that possible? It's a job in the legal field, and everybody knows that there are more women than men. That's when I realized I needed to make a change. When comparing candidates, we like to compare their strengths and development needs. But in fact, strengths can be divided into results and potentials. We may compare men's potential to women's outcomes, which is unfair and detrimental to women's self-confidence. I admit that I made the same mistake in this matter. If we had made a little change, the results would have been very different.
The other thing we're doing is providing support. We have more than 14,600 stores and more than 50% of our employees are women. The most difficult period for a woman's career is when her children are very young, raising children, taking on the responsibilities of motherhood, and taking care of their parents. At this time, young women need support the most, and Yum China supports its employees in a wide range of ways. For example, this year we plan to hold the annual meeting of restaurant managers in Hong Kong, where we will invite more than 14,000 restaurant managers to meet with the company's executives.
Quite honestly, I've been through the same struggle. But I encourage employees to stay true to themselves. I have a lot of talented friends who choose to be housewives if that's what your heart desires, but it doesn't hurt to do it. Don't do it because your mother-in-law is persecuting you, and don't do it because your husband strongly encourages you, but because you really like it. When it comes to such a choice, I give my team members eight words: love is voluntary, no regrets.
I would like to share one more thing with you. One of the first things I did when I became CEO of Yum China in 2018 was to spend a lot of money on health insurance for my employees. But it doesn't matter, I'm also very good at making money and can afford it. At that time, we only opened this policy to store managers, assistant store managers, and supervisors, and we will continue to cover all full-time employees. We provide not only health insurance for our employees, but also critical illness insurance for their parents. Why? Because many women have family responsibilities that involve not only children, but also the responsibilities that parents bring to women are extremely challenging. We raised the age of coverage from 65 to 75, which is definitely a loss for insurance companies.
But I found a very good person in charge of an insurance company, and I said that I should contribute something to society, which is charity. He accepted it, but said he would not expand the insurance program further because it was really too much of a loss. But our company is large, so we can be self-financed. We paid out of our own pockets and applied to the manager of the insurance company. And one thing I didn't expect, but whenever my store manager wants to change jobs, they need to get their parents' approval, which is actually pretty good.
Qi Yueman: Everyone shared good examples. I think back to a study and feel very relevant. The researchers interviewed 57 female CEOs, and two-thirds of them said they didn't realize they could be CEOs until they were told they could. These women are too focused on results and ignore what has already been achieved. I'd like to ask you, how do you get women to see that they have the potential to be CEOs earlier, rather than through other people's mouths? I think sometimes it can seem too arrogant to say that you want to be a CEO, how do you overcome that? Kath, what do you think?
Kath: I probably won't give you the answer you want, because I think it's dangerous to look at the organizational chart and say I want to do a certain position, and you can go down the wrong path. I prefer to focus on how to encourage women to embrace opportunities and take bold steps in their careers. If we create such an environment, then women will rise in a variety of high-level positions where they can really play to their strengths.
Sun Jie: I think it takes a two-way effort from the top down and the bottom up. Every year during the promotion stage, most of the people who come to me for a salary increase and promotion are men. They would tell me what they had done, how well they had done it, and ask me when I would be promoted. I must strongly encourage them. I remember some female employees who reached the promotion cycle, submitted an application, and then told me that Ctrip had given me a lot of opportunities, but I felt that I needed another two more years to be promoted. I'm going to say, no, you're ready. Senior management, in particular, needs to identify these promising women and encourage them to be brave and confident.
On the other hand, from a personal point of view, we also need to increase our self-confidence. If you're doing a great job, let your leaders know what you've done, what your career goals are, and how we can improve. Be very confident in your career goals. Then people will pay more attention to you and train you to be the next leader.
Chen Yiting: I have similar views with Sun Jie. First of all, everyone here is a great role model, and you have shown young women what is possible. This is very important. And Qu Cuirong said before, as a woman, sometimes we do feel that we are not ready. We want to be 100 percent ready, or even 12 percent ready, before we are willing to take on big responsibilities. Men, on the other hand, tend to think in terms of potential. So the contrast between actual results and potential is always a never-ending tug-of-war. I think there are a lot of things we can do to encourage the younger generation of women, first and foremost by recognizing the possibilities.
Second, be a little bolder. You don't need to be 100% ready. In fact, if you're 100% ready, you're probably choosing the wrong job. We need to allow room for learning and progress. That's what all of you can do further.
Qu Cuirong: I very much support your views. I would also like to emphasize two points. First, it's good to focus on the learning process, after setting a goal, you may succeed or fail, but the learning process is always good. We can feel inner peace and confidence.
I have experienced many of the struggles of women and young girls. What we can improve is to "be thicker-skinned". Sometimes we get frustrated by remarks about girls being ambitious. I would say, then please find a man who is not ambitious but successful. There's nothing wrong with using that word to describe women, but I don't know why we just don't like it. It's okay, someone says you're ambitious, and you say thank you. If someone says you're strong, you say thank you, that's a compliment. It shows that you are strong, so accept it, maintain self-confidence, and "be thick-skinned". (Fortune Chinese Network)
Editor: Xie Jingwei
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