Editor's note: Japanese game media outlet 電ファミニコゲーマー (denfaminicogamer) recently organized a dialogue between Yoshihiro Kondo ("Locus", "Isu" series) and "Honkai Gakuen 2" and "Honkai 3rd" screenwriter and producer, and "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" producer David.
Described by the Japanese media as "a turn-based RPG with Genshin-level graphics and in-depth playability", what are the unique features of the development of "Star Dome Railway"? As the producer of the classic Japanese turn-based RPG track series, what would President Kondo say about "Star Dome Railway", which is also a turn-based RPG? What will China and Japan say about the current statement that "turn-based RPGs are fading"?
In this interview published on the denfamini website, the two had a very in-depth and detailed discussion, and the content of this conversation was reproduced and compiled by Youkensha with the exclusive permission of denfamini.
Due to space limitations, this article can only simplify part of the content, in fact, the two sides also made a detailed discussion on the form of RPG expression, the form of world view, and the operation mode of their respective companies.
The "Trajectory" series in David's eyes,
The "Honkai" series in Kondo's eyes
David: The first time I came across Falcom Japan was Legend of Heroes: Trail of Zero, which I played when I was in college. In China at that time, Zero Trail was one of the few games in Falcom Japan that was officially released, and I was very impressed.
After that, I played three more works of "Legend of Heroes: Trail of the Void". "Legend of Heroes: The Trail of Bi" was also played immediately when it was released in China. Yes, I'm so obsessed with the Locus series. In fact, my QQ account avatar has been the Tio of the "Trajectory" series for 10 years, and it has never changed.
Then there's the fact that I love the "music" of the Locus series. The theme song of "Trajectory of the Sky", "Where the Star Is", is very popular among Chinese fans, and I still use "Where the Star" as the background music for work.
In addition, I sincerely admire the courage of "Trajectory" willing to spend more than ten years cultivating a series!
Kondo: I also played Honkai 3rd myself, and the moment I decided to start playing it was "good character modeling". At that time, games like "Honkai 3rd" with a "two-dimensional painting style and strong action" were still relatively rare. It stands to reason that high-quality graphics in this style should be the strength of Japanese games, but it feels like Honkai 3rd has completely surpassed other products in Japan at that time. So when I played, I was a little reluctant (laughs).
"Honkai: Star Dome Railway" has a sci-fi worldview set in a grand universe, and also adds a slightly fantasy-style element of "a train that runs through the universe". Also as a gamer, I also prefer this worldview. The morning before the conversation began, I had a lively discussion with other Falcom employees in Japan, saying, "I really want to play this game sooner!" ”
In addition to the world view, I was also amazed by the "high-quality game graphics and performances". Judging from the previously released PV, there was a scene in the game where the giant robot's body was sprinted upwards while fighting, and the first reaction at the time was "How can a command-based combat RPG achieve such a show?!" "It was a jaw drop.
David: Thanks for the compliment. I'm a "robot" fan myself, so at my personal suggestion, there will also be giant robots in Honkai: Star Dome Railway. And "how does the giant robot element fit into the gameplay of command-based, turn-based RPGs to form a high-quality performance?" "That's where we put a lot of effort into this work.
"Flesh and blood against giant robots?"
Grotesque or romantic?
Host: Whether it is the "Trajectory" series or "Honkai: Star Dome Railway", it is a charming work that perfectly integrates "science fiction and fantasy" elements in the world view. In the work, bridges such as "using swords as weapons to fight opponents with guns" and "fighting giant robots with flesh and blood" all reflect the unique charm of the game world view.
Kondo: When I was traveling to the U.S. on business, I tried to ask North American players, "Do you think gun-and-sword duels are a little strange?" Sure enough, most of the answers were "weird."
However, for Japanese people who grew up watching Japanese anime, "fighting with opponents with guns with swords" has a romantic feeling in it. There is no doubt that deep in our hearts, there is a longing for such romantic feelings and a longing for "wanting to see such scenes".
Although we even made a bridge such as "holding a Japanese knife facing a giant robot", we also know that this bridge is actually quite weird. However, if this unique charm can be presented in a handsome form, people from different cultural backgrounds must be able to accept it.
As for this super gorgeous and unique scene, "how to present it to the player?" "Every time, we have to consider the background of the worldview, and at the same time, we are limited by the overall situation of research and development and the actual situation, which can be described as quite laborious.
I believe that many players will also feel that this unique charm is the "taste of the "Locus" series", so we have added such unique charm performance to "respond to the needs of players" based on the Japanese anime works that we have watched for so many years and the turn-based RPG characteristics that have been formed for a long time.
Because of this, in fact, for "the fight between guns and swords is not very strange?" "Doesn't it feel inconvenient to challenge the giant robot with a Japanese sword?" Such questions... We don't really have to adjust or choose the existing production methods.
David: My idea is close to Mr. Kondo. In short, "if the player can accept it, it is OK".
Here I talk about something that happened in the early years. After learning computer technology at school, I made Honkai 3rd. Since I came from a computer technology background, my principle for a while was that "any unique scene and setting in a game must be given a scientific and physically logical explanation".
As a result, Honkai 3 is full of trivial settings such as "the scene is based on such and such physical principles and scientific research...", but according to player feedback, "most players don't really care about this kind of storytelling, but rather enjoy this kind of world view". That's when I suddenly realized.
Of course, there are still some players who are very useful for such small settings, but after summing up the experience, we found that "as long as players can accept it, there is no need for such detailed explanations and research".
There will also be RPGs in "The Marquee of Life";
The Star Dome Railway attempts to add AI to NPC behavior mode
Kondo: RPGs have a concept of "playtime." Movies usually end in two or three hours, but in RPGs, players are exposed to the worldview for as long as 20~30 hours and as long as 50~100 hours.
Although this length of time can only be counted as one hundredth or even one thousandth compared to life, it takes such a long time to advance the plot and develop the character, and the immersion in it is unmatched by other media.
When playing RPGs, the action commands entered by the player with the controller will be presented in the game and converted into images and sounds. Coupled with the memories of the characters and the resonance of the plot, the resulting sense of immersion and realism are the advantages of the "RPG" category.
David: My idea is close to Mr. Kondo. The interesting thing about the RPG category is that it "can experience life" and "has a sense of immersion that other media do not have".
For example, if you want to "feel things that you can't experience in everyday life", you have to buy tickets to other countries, pack your travel bags, and the "preparation" stage alone is enough to keep you busy. But RPGs are different, as long as you have an electronic device, you can easily feel the world we don't know and new experiences. As long as it can also provide players with "experiences that cannot be felt in daily life", the RPG category will continue to be loved by the majority of players.
Kondo: Didn't you say that at the end of your life, "the most delicious food you've ever eaten" and "the most beautiful place you've ever been" will appear in front of you? If it were me, I would probably see memories such as "That RPG is so fun" (laughs).
There's no doubt that RPGs are a genre that can be remembered in life, and I hope to keep that faith and continue to develop the game in the future.
David: I wanted to provide players with "experiences different from their own lives" through RPGs. As technology advances, the sense of immersion and immersion that players can experience is increasingly evolving.
For example, in order to make "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" more immersive, we have added AI technology to the NPC behavior mode, although we can't talk too specifically at present, but thanks to AI technology, the behavior of NPCs that have always been more patterned will appear more natural, thus giving players a sense of immersion that "I really entered the world of Honkai: Star Dome Railway".
It takes 1 year to make 1 planet -
The Star Dome Railway is overwhelmingly slow to work out of fine work
David: If there is "inspiration for the Locus series", it is "the different cultures and backgrounds of the planets that the protagonist will go to, and the plots that match them". For the planets that appear in the game, we put a lot of effort into the design, and for each planet, its copywriting and art settings take a year from start to finish.
We also put a lot of effort into the design of the characters. I hope to bring players a new game experience through the characters.
For example, when I first met Theo in Trail of Zero, I felt the new impact of the character's design.
How "new" is this impact? Then we have to mention the design of the weapon held by Theo - the "magic wand". As I mentioned when I was talking about the worldview, it was the "fusion of magic and technology" that brought me a new impact experience.
I hope that the characters who appeared in "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" can also bring you the kind of new impact experience that I once felt in the "Trajectory" series.
Kondo: In my personal opinion, the enthusiasm of "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" to "depict one world after another in a grand worldview" is very remarkable.
I've seen some hands-on demo videos before, and when the character opens the trash can placed in the area, I was surprised by the amount of "trash can captions" displayed. The caption for a trash bin alone is several pages, so how big the text of so many planets in the game must be.
In the "Locus" series, we also configure the corresponding plot for everyone living in the town, and the character lines will be updated at any time, and this textual detail has been well received by players, but compared to the enthusiasm of "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" to depict the world, it makes me feel "Maybe the other party is more powerful than us?" ”。
The Japanese are tired of turn-based RPGs
Is it the creator's responsibility?
David: Personally, I think the perception that "command-based and turn-based RPGs are more retro game types" is a bit preconceived. According to the results of the player questionnaire conducted by our company, whether it is a PC, mobile phone or home console platform, there are quite a few people who like "command turn-based RPGs".
There are many examples of successful command-based and turn-based RPGs in China, so I believe that "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" will also be accepted by the majority of players.
Moreover, when developing "Honkai 3rd", players like "the action of the game is too hardcore, the difficulty of operation is too high to get started" is not small.
We want to expand the player base so that people who are not good at action games can try our products.
Based on the results of marketing and player research, we believe that "not requiring the high-intensity operation of action games, players can think about their next actions with ease, and pay more attention to strategic RPGs" is likely to be successful on a global scale, so "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" was born.
Kondo: David's speech is a great encouragement for us.
Among the players of Falcom's Japanese titles, there are also "players who are not good at action games, so they prefer to be able to enjoy the story and the game itself at their own pace - that is, the command-based turn-based RPG", and we have received many similar opinions so far.
It was on the basis of receiving such opinions that we continued the development of the "Trajectory" and "Isu" series ... The conclusion that HoYoverse's survey shows that there are many people who like command-based turn-based RPGs is also a great encouragement for us.
We also don't feel that "command-based turn-based RPGs have reached a dead end, and players are tired of it".
"Japan Falcom" has such a philosophy inheritance - "innovation from inheritance". Every time we develop a new title, we challenge ourselves to break through the bottleneck and spawn unprecedented combat systems and RPGs.
The latest game, Legend of Heroes Locus of Li II, uses the technique of "seamlessly leading to command-based combat while adding real-time elements to a certain extent", and this system was created precisely because we are reluctant to abandon command-based combat.
Source: "Legend of Heroes Li Trail 2" official website
In the future, Falcom will not abandon the same command-based combat system, and continue to integrate new elements to continue to create RPG works.
The next sentence may be a bit of a half-joke, in some works of the "Trajectory" series, there are as many as 30~40 operable characters, and if you design a set of special actions for each character, it is a huge burden for both players and the R&D team.
If the player is still fighting with a character with a sword, and suddenly a companion with a gun enters and the player has to operate the gun character again - it is too hard. Similarly, for the R&D team, it is also very difficult to "implement gun action specifically for this scene".
Considering these factors, for group dramas with many characters, command-based turn-based RPGs or SRPGs like "Royal Knights" will be more suitable.
Considering the pressure on such development, and the compatibility of the story and game genre that it hopes to create, the Locus series adopts a turn-based, that is, a "turn-based evolution" rhythm.
Moderator: I originally wanted to ask David "how tolerant the Chinese side is for command-based RPGs", but from the content of the conversation so far, it seems that "I think the category of command-based RPGs is a bit old" is just the unique perception of our Japanese players.
David: First of all, the development team of Honkai: Star Dome Railway has quite a few members who like turn-based RPGs. Then I am myself, friends and colleagues around me, and there are many people who love turn-based RPGs. Whenever there is a new work in the Locus series, my friends and I get quite excited. (laughs).
Of course, it is not non-existent "Command-based and turn-based, will it give players an overly retro feeling?" However, according to the results of the closed beta survey of "Honkai: Star Dome Railway", which has been held twice, 95% of players gave feedback that "as long as the game itself is fun and the graphics are good enough, there is an incentive to continue playing."
HoYoverse's policy has always been "as long as the quality of the product is excellent, players will naturally give face", and we have always warned all employees.
Kondo: Japan's Falcom products are also expanding into North America. However, going back 10 years, our products were almost unpopular in North America. In the past 10 years, with the "Locus" series as an opportunity, the number of players has increased a lot.
Judging by the response in the North American market, my impression is that "sure enough, Japanese players are already a little tired of turn-based RPGs". However, the reason why the Japanese are tired of turn-based RPGs is also the responsibility of us creators.
As a producer, because the "turn-based RPG system" is currently in a bottleneck period of development, it is necessary to find a way to "restart" and seek the possibility of next-generation turn-based RPGs. After watching the PV of "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" this time, I felt that I had gained the courage that "turn-based RPGs still have endless possibilities".
HoYoverse's R&D model
"I'm afraid we won't learn"
David: HoYoverse's side has always started projects by "observing player needs".
As I mentioned earlier, I carefully interpret the market data to determine what kind of game players really need before starting to think about the project.
The next thing to do is to observe "the overall trends and trends of the industry". For example. When Honkai 3rd was developed, the domestic trend in China was that "console action games are very popular". Therefore, based on the consideration of "experience in the development of action games that can be played on mobile phones", we established "Honkai 3rd".
Speaking of the idea of "wanting to gain experience in making certain types of games", the project "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" was also intended to gain experience in creating "box-style worldview settings" and depicting "delicate connections between characters", which is also the starting point for this project.
Then, it's important to "try difficult challenges." Honkai: Star Dome Railway is HoYoverse's first attempt at a command-based turn-based RPG, and the current plan is for the game to run for at least 6 years. There are bound to be a variety of complex problems during this period, but the experience gained by solving the problem is also very important for game developers.
Finally, "whether you like it or not" is also important. When planning and developing a game, "whether you will like this work" is very important. To put it at the extreme, the reason for developing Honkai: Star Dome Railway is also based on the idea of "hoping that there will be fun games in this category".
Host: According to David, on the one hand, you need to have a clear understanding of player demand and market conditions, and on the other hand, you must have the enthusiasm to "want to develop your favorite works", and it should not be easy to strike a balance between the two.
Kondo: I think too. On the one hand, I am a little envious of HoYoverse's R&D model, and on the other hand, I think, "I'm afraid we won't be able to learn" (laughs).
Falcom Japan usually establishes "the products you want to develop" at the project establishment stage, and then conducts market research as a supplement.
First of all, Falcom Japan pays great attention to "doing what you like to do". It is precisely because you are doing what you like to do that you can break through some details and difficulties in game development, and this is probably one of the reasons why Falcom's products in Japan can be loved by players.
After all, Falcom Japan is not a big company, and even if you want to "create works that reflect the overall trend of the industry after conducting market research", there are many places that cannot be done in practice. So it's often a matter of "What are people good at today?" "Let's go, step by step, moving the project forward.
The "Trajectory" series was because some of the employees at that time were good at writing plots, so there was a plan to "develop a game with the plot as a selling point", while the "Isu" series was because the company had programmers who were good at creating the feel of action games, so there was a plan to "develop a game that values action".
Source: Isu VI.: "Nabistin's Ark" official website
"What are we guys best at right now?" After initially identifying what you're good at, you're wondering, "How can you build a game based on it to make it more popular?" "This is a more practical problem.
Of course, in the actual research and development process, we will also consider to a certain extent such issues as "today's trends" and "categories that are more needed by the industry", but for Falcom Japan, the most important thing when starting a project is ultimately the employee's own area of expertise, and whether the content to be done is what the employee likes.
Most of the employees of Falcom Japan are not geniuses, and everyone is relatively average, so when developing games, they often "each exert their own strength in their own areas of expertise, and then combine these forces into a rope, and finally release them as games".
That's probably why people say "Japanese Falcom is a strange flower in the game industry."
DR: Both HoYoverse and I feel that "teamwork" is very important in the development of games. Most of HoYoverse's products are developed by a large team of 400~500 people, and we always emphasize to all employees: "We are a team, let's keep working as a team and cheer together".
Host: The number of R&D personnel of a game can reach 400~500?!
DR: Some projects even have more participants (laughs). HoYoverse's games are basically updated once a month, so the scale and workload of R&D is quite large. "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" has not yet been officially launched, so the number of employees is not large, and when it is officially launched, it will also operate on this scale.
Moderator: How do you say that... It feels like the scale is really huge....
Kondo: There are only about 30 of us (laughs).
Everyone: (laughs).
"Like Gundam" to create ultra-long-term IP,
Initial R&D in 2-3 years"
Host: Falcom Japan has been established for 40 years, and the "Trajectory" series alone is an old series that has been out for 20 years. In President Kondo's view, why can the Japanese Falcom and the "Locus" series be loved by players for many years?
Kondo: The first is that "game makers can't get bored with game development." Like the command-based, turn-based RPG just mentioned, our R&D team is able to stick with it because they never get bored.
Let's take the Gundam series as a reference. Since Tomino Yuki created Mobile Suit Gundam, there have been sequels that have been created by combining their own understanding of Mobile Suit and the theme of the story.
As a result, the fan base of the Gundam series is also expanding. The Gundam series does not stick too much to the limitations of the original generation, but keeps the series alive by constantly presenting new titles of various genres. The same is true of the "Isu" series, which continues to create its own interesting content while inheriting the achievements of its predecessors, and the "Trajectory" series is also constantly injecting fresh blood into new works while maintaining the quality of the plot.
Using the Gundam series as a reference, this "inheriting the interesting aspects of the past while showing new highlights" may be the reason why Falcom and the Locus series in Japan have been loved by players for a long time. That being said, rather than worrying about "long-term survival," it's because we've been thinking hard and developing games for a long time, and we've been doing it since we ended up (laughs).
David: Actually, HoYoverse has been established for nearly 10 years since the launch of "Honkai Academy" in China. If HoYoverse also hopes that its products will continue to be loved by players in the future, the most important thing should be "new works come out". Then it's about constantly challenging yourself in the process of developing products.
"Honkai Academy" is a side-scrolling shooter, "Honkai 3rd" is an action game, and this "Honkai: Star Dome Railroad" is a command-based turn-based RPG... In this way, we are constantly changing the genre and giving ourselves new challenges. In the future, we will continue to provide players with unprecedented HoYoverse game products. If this process can be maintained, HoYoverse should be loved by players for a long time to come.
In addition, I feel that it is important to clarify "goals and issues" during the R&D process. Taking "Honkai: Star Dome Railway" as an example, it is to accumulate experience for future game development by focusing on new goals and topics such as "how to design the worldview of the box garden" and "introducing AI technology for the lines and behaviors of NPCs".
In addition to the continuous release of new works, it is also important to "continuously improve the quality of the work". At present, HoYoverse's new project will have a 2~3 year R&D cycle in the initial stage of planning alone.
Most of the players said that the character art and texture of Honkai: Star Dome Railway have improved compared to previous titles, which makes us very happy. HoYoverse has set such a long development cycle in order to "provide players with unprecedented quality products".
"Craftsmanship" also has limitations;
"A friend works as a programmer on the Star Dome Railway"
Kondo: HoYoverse is a big company, and before the conversation, I kept thinking, "What is the difference between their home and Falcom in Japan?" "But after actually talking to David, I found that both our attitude towards creation and our love for game development are very close.
When I used to talk to other game producers, I once talked about "Isn't the command-based turn-based RPG a bit old?" ". I couldn't be too tough at the time, but after feeling David's passion for command-based turn-based RPGs in this conversation, I felt full of courage.
As a foreigner, David told us that "there are still great possibilities for RPGs created in Japan", which made me very happy.
At the same time, I also noticed the weakness of Falcom Japan, which is that there are too many craftsmanship creators in Falcom Japan, who tend to want to create good works with their own characteristics, and once this goal is achieved, they will feel satisfied and stop moving forward.
Japanese Falcom does pay some attention to the player's feelings, but it is not "extroverted" enough. In the future, if we want to go to the next level, we need to pay more attention to player experience and market research, which may be our focus in the future... That's how I personally felt after learning that David and HoYoverse attach so much importance to "player market research" in this conversation.
David: There are so many players in HoYoverse's games, and some of them certainly feel that "turn-based games are outdated," and even I sometimes accept this view too much. But more importantly, it is actually from the results of market research and big data to judge the real voice of players.
Here's my personal opinion, HoYoverse is more of a "tech company" than a pure game company. Including me who majored in computer science, there are many key members and management science majors.
Moreover, the tendency of HoYoverse to attach importance to player market research and big data just introduced is called "Internet thinking" in China, so I was a little confused when developing "Honkai 3rd", referring to big data-based market research, similar to the Japanese Falcom "do what you want" craftsmanship - how to strike a balance between the two?
Through this dialogue, I feel that the key issue in the future is to find a more suitable middle ground while maintaining a balance between marketability and one's own characteristics.
Finally, there is another sentence that feels unavoidable, in fact, this conversation can be counted as "Japanese Falcom fan meeting for star-chasing at public expense".
Kondo: I also got a lot of stimulation from this conversation with David. Seeing David produce something like Honkai: Star Dome Railway under the influence of Falcom in Japan, I feel that I will have to work harder in the future.
It's just that compared to HoYoverse and other large game companies, Japan's Falcom lacks cutting-edge technology and company scale, and we can only rack our brains to present players with RPGs that can affect their lives.
Speaking of which, when chatting with our Chinese employees before, the other party mentioned that "my friend is a programmer in the project team of "Honkai: Star Dome Railway". This mutual influence is still very happy. (laughs).
DICTATION RECORDER/TAITAI
Words / Gismatic Rock
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