Interview with former Egyptian Prime Minister Seraf: Who creates opportunities and who digs the "trap" between China and the West?

He pointed out that China's rapid development in recent decades has benefited from a well-functioning governance system that is different from that of the West, and also due to the unity of the people of the whole country and down-to-earth efforts to realize the Chinese dream. China's cooperation on an equal footing and mutual benefit with the outside world has brought opportunities to other countries, especially developing countries. China's many initiatives have also provided references for resolving many of the major crises facing the world today. However, some Western countries have reversed black and white, stigmatized China, and deliberately disrupted China's international cooperation. On the occasion of the upcoming 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, Seraf said that the Communist Party of China adheres to the belief of "doing everything for the people and relying on the people in everything", will not forget its original intention, draw a blueprint, and continue to strive unremittingly for the realization of the second centenary goal and the Chinese dream.

Compere:

Hello and welcome to our program. I understand that your first visit to China was 17 years ago. In your opinion, what developments and changes have China made over the years?

Sheraf:

Yes, I visited China for the first time in 2005. I was Egypt's Minister of Transport at the time. I think I should be the only minister to visit China that year. Over the years, I've been following the news in China and China's amazing industrialization. For professional reasons, I am very concerned about China's progress in the field of transportation, especially rail and maritime transport. I have also attended many conferences in China. But to be honest, China's level of development surprised me, far exceeding my most optimistic expectations. China's development really shocked me, because although I heard a lot of news about China, I did not expect that China, as a once poor country and an underdeveloped country, could develop to the extent it is today. I was shocked by the level of development of China, and my impression of China has changed dramatically. In fact, my impression of China used to be heavily influenced by the media, especially the Western media.

When I returned to Egypt from my visit to China, I told my cabinet colleagues and Cairo University professors that I had witnessed the birth of a great nation. In fact, I mentioned it in 2017 when I recorded a TED talk video for young Chinese in China. It can be said that I have seen a lot of changes in China, and among them, I think the most important thing is that the Chinese people are very serious about realizing their dreams. Later, in 2014, I read a lot of articles about the Chinese dream, and I deeply realized how united and united the Chinese Communist Party, the Chinese government, and the Chinese people are in the process of realizing the Chinese dream, rushing forward like a turbulent torrent.

Compere:

If you could describe China in one or two sentences to someone who has never been to China, what would you say?

Sheraf:

You know, it's hard to sum up China in just a few words, so I'll try to talk about it. I'm talking about my own true feelings, and I want to convey these feelings to others. First of all, in my opinion, China is a country where dreams have come true, and this Chinese dream began more than 100 years ago and has been passed down from generation to generation.

Second, when you come to China, you feel that it is an exciting and worthy example to follow. Chinese people are serious and serious, and China's characteristics are very obvious, hospitable and inclusive, which is the example of national development. Actually, as I said, I'm impressed by that, and I think when people visit China, they spontaneously want to emulate China. For me, China is a living civilization, and I can feel that Chinese civilization is everywhere. Although there is no lack of modernity in China, I can still feel the spirit of traditional Chinese civilization.

Finally, during my more than 30 visits to China, I discovered that China has a respectable governance system in all areas. This system is led by the Communist Party of China and supported by the masses.

Compere:

In today's multipolar world, all countries should learn from each other. What enlightenment do you think China's economic development experience can bring to the world?

Sheraf:

I will discuss this from two sides – conceptually and practically.

Conceptually speaking, one is the Chinese Dream. Its pursuit of people's prosperity and national rejuvenation deserves emulation by any country, especially developing countries, that is serious about its own development. It requires taking the people as the starting point, keeping the people in mind, and giving priority to the overall situation of national development. Second, China's experience is to strike a balance between maintaining its own characteristics and opening up to the outside world. Over the past few decades, although China's opening up to the outside world has deepened and the overall international situation has undergone tremendous changes, the Chinese spirit has still stood still. I think this gives Chinese people the inner strength to remain united.

Third, as I said before, there is also a successful governance system led by the Chinese Communist Party at the conceptual level. If this system of governance can be absorbed by the international community, it will benefit many, many countries, especially developing countries. I would also like to say that the Chinese Communist Party and China's governance system have actually caused some concern in Western countries, because it is a new, different from the West, and a well-functioning governance system. As a result, people began to feel that what came from the West was not necessarily the best; It will be understood that there is more than one system that can succeed. That is why the Chinese Communist Party is supported by Chinese people.

In addition, there is the "people-centered" development concept and the close ties between the party and the people. I can list a lot of relevant data here. For example, a few decades ago, China's per capita GDP was about $100, but now, guided by the "people-centered" development concept, China's per capita GDP has exceeded $10,000. This is a philosophy that any country that is seriously developing should follow. I believe that with the combination of these concepts, China has established a comprehensive, inclusive and balanced development model, which provides a good example for other countries.

What I mean by the conceptual level is some standards, some basic goals. In fact, I believe that other countries, especially developing countries, can learn from this, I believe they will benefit a lot.

At the practical level, China has put forward many excellent initiatives to the world. For example, the Belt and Road Initiative and the Global Development Initiative. I can gush for hours about the Belt and Road Initiative because I am experienced in it. To give a concrete example, the Belt and Road Initiative has made international trade more convenient and stimulated many hidden trade needs. Therefore, the Belt and Road Initiative provides a valuable opportunity for developing countries to increase national income and increase per capita GDP. The BRI has also created jobs and helped developing countries reduce poverty levels. This is just one example, and there are countless more such examples of the international platform provided by the Belt and Road Initiative.

There is also the global development initiative proposed by President Xi Jinping last year. This initiative provides a global development mechanism that identifies development priorities and priorities to help the world overcome the negative impact of the pandemic on the economy and help countries around the world, especially developing countries, achieve the 2030 Sustainable Development Goals. In addition, President Xi Jinping launched the Global Security Initiative earlier this year, which aims to create a peaceful international environment to facilitate the implementation and ultimate success of global development initiatives. These are practical experiences. Of course, there is still a lot to learn from China, but I think the above is enough.

Compere:

Let's talk about the world economy, what do you think are the main problems in the global economy at present?

Sheraf:

Okay, but I want to emphasize that the world is now highly interconnected, and any local problem can develop into a global threat. For example, the 2008 financial crisis, the coronavirus pandemic, the Russian-Ukrainian war, and of course, climate change. So, above all, the world must recognize that no country can face global threats alone. These crises – and of course others – have led to huge disparities in levels of development between countries, especially given the current technological gap. This will lead to a sharp increase in the likelihood of economic crises and conflict confrontations in some countries, particularly developing countries. Arguably, the above problems are just a microcosm of the many effects of the economic downturn that is now taking place.

Compere:

So, do you have any suggestions for solving these problems?

Sheraf:

To be honest, I don't have any new suggestions, but I think we can refer to a series of initiatives proposed by China, such as the Belt and Road Initiative, the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative and, most recently, the Global Poverty Reduction Initiative. The key to solving the problem is that the countries of the world should work together to deal with it, and no one should be left out, which is the goal of these initiatives. These initiatives are not just for China, not just for Asia, but for the sake of the whole world. As I said before, local problems will eventually become global threats, so related problems should also be jointly addressed by all countries under a global framework.

So, what should be done? I think it should be carried out under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, the Global Development Initiative and the Global Security Initiative. In fact, each of these initiatives has been welcomed by the majority of the international community and has received considerable recognition. Of course, not everyone accepts it, because perhaps not everyone takes global issues seriously. I am convinced that action on the basis of these initiatives will help to resolve the current crisis. In this regard, in the face of risks and challenges, we have policy tools, and people recognize these policies. Therefore, if we can work together to advance the implementation of these critical, important and excellent initiatives, then I believe that people can overcome the threat and weather the crisis.

Compere:

The Belt and Road Initiative has promoted infrastructure construction and investment in Africa, but some critics have dismissed China's investment in Africa as creating a "debt trap" and engaging in "neocolonialism." Do you agree with this statement?

Sheraf:

If you answer briefly in three seconds, I certainly disagree with that statement. But I'll try to expand on it. First of all, I would like to state the fact that China-Africa economic relations really began in 2000 – that is, 22 years ago, when the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation was established. This fact means that China is a latecomer in the African capital market, not as early as the West. Africa's current debt has accumulated over decades, and Western countries and international organizations have long been Africa's creditors. China actually only really entered the African market almost 20 years ago, while the West has existed in Africa for hundreds of years. So the reality is that African countries under Western colonial rule are seriously backward and deteriorating, and this is the source of Africa's debt.

If you assess the share of China's external debt to Africa with other countries and international organizations, you will find that China's proportion of lending to Africa is extremely low, almost half that of the World Bank's lending to Africa. So I think this is a media war to sow a solid and promising China-Africa relationship.

Moreover, most of Africa's debt comes from infrastructure projects, which are inherently long-term and slow to recoup funds. Don't forget, these projects are decided by African governments, not China. These projects have also proven to have considerable economic and social benefits, for example in terms of employment and poverty alleviation. A simple example. Consider the number of jobs created annually for Africa by Chinese-invested projects between 2010 and 2019. On average, China creates nearly 19,000 jobs a year in non-projects. By comparison, non-projects in the United States create an average of about 12,000 jobs a year, France about 8,000, and the United Kingdom about 5,000. Therefore, employment opportunities are also an important benefit of China's investment in Africa. So I totally reject those critical comments. As I said before, this is nothing more than a media war aimed at disrupting China-Africa relations.

Compere:

How do you see the current China-Egypt relationship?

Sheraf:

There is no doubt that China-Egypt relations have a long history, which began on the ancient Silk Road more than 2,000 years ago, so it has a rich history. I have also stated many times that the two major civilizations of China and Egypt are indeed closely related to human history, and they have written a magnificent chapter in human history together. This is what makes China-Egypt relations unique. At present, the cooperation between the two countries is getting closer and closer, involving transportation, the construction of a new administrative capital, energy, the Suez Canal and of course, excellent cooperation in the field of coronavirus vaccination. Sino-Egyptian cooperation is already at the beginning of 100 feet, and it is necessary to go further. But I always say that I want the economic relationship between the two countries to be raised to a level comparable to the level of political relations between the two countries. The political relations between the two countries are indeed quite good and can be called an excellent example of political relations. I hope that economic relations will also be raised to that level.

Compere:

Where do you think the two countries could work more closely together?

Sheraf:

I think China in particular can help in the construction of special economic zones, especially in the Suez Canal basin, and China can also benefit from them. As we all know, the Suez Canal is an important part of the Maritime Silk Road. Why am I talking about SEZs? Because special economic zones are the "code" behind the Chinese miracle and China's economic miracle - this is also the view of most economists in the world. Therefore, I believe that the "Belt and Road" initiative and the New Silk Road can promote the use of the Suez Canal to improve quality and efficiency, and the construction of special economic zones will benefit China and Egypt.

Second, China can contribute to the in-depth development of Egypt's industrialization process. This is also important for China, because Egypt is blessed with unique geographical advantages. Egypt is located in the heart of the three continents of Asia, Africa and Europe, and has signed many trade agreements with European, Arab and other African countries. If some industries can be developed in Egypt according to local conditions, China and Egypt will definitely benefit together.

In addition, I think there is another crucial area of cooperation, which is related to "soft" power. Sino-Egyptian cooperation in this field will not only benefit both sides, but will also benefit the whole world through cultural interconnection and mutual learning between civilizations, which the world really lacks. The world needs to improve its understanding of culture and believe that there are civilizations in the world that are different from those of the West. I believe that these two unique civilizations of China and Egypt can help each other and help the world.

Compere:

What are your expectations for the 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China to be held in Beijing this year?

Sheraf:

That's a good question, but let me start with the Sixth Plenum of the 19th Central Committee. I believe that the convening of the Sixth Plenary Session of the 19th CPC Central Committee is of great significance, because it has sent a series of important, urgent and extensive messages to the Chinese people and the whole world, released many signals, and put forward many important ideas. The first is pride and perseverance. They earnestly reviewed the historical achievements of the CPC and the 100-year course of "doing everything for the people and relying on the people in everything."

The second point is cooperation and solidarity. People are different, but the Chinese people, the Chinese government, the Communist Party of China, the Chinese armed forces and all ethnic groups in China can truly think and work hard in one place, and embark on a new journey of adhering to the original intention of cooperation and forging ahead hand in unity.

The third point, which I think is also crucial, is trust and unity, that is, trust in the Communist Party of China and General Secretary Xi Jinping. The above three points make me sure that people will continue to firmly support General Secretary Xi Jinping, and that the Communist Party of China will draw up a blueprint for the second centenary goal, and will continue to strive unremittingly for the realization of the Chinese dream without forgetting its original aspirations.

Compere:

What is your outlook for China's future?

Sheraf:

We have a lot to talk about, but I will answer briefly. I believe that the 14th Five-Year Plan will be an important guide, and it is time to transform the development model under the guidance of the concept of "dual circulation". The "dual circulation" is crucial, and its proposal is based on the profound insight of effectively empowering the Chinese people to become strong and prosperous. Foreign investment can help achieve this goal, and if there are problems in external markets, domestic countries can become interdependent. On the other hand, it is through the "Belt and Road" and other global initiatives, steadily expanding opening up. Therefore, "dual circulation" actually refers to the strong combination of domestic and international cooperation, but mainly relying on endogenous strength, that is, a stronger China, richer people, and more domestic demand. China has both demand and supply. So I think it actually makes China less susceptible to interference from external forces. At the same time, China is a big country and has put forward many initiatives, so it will still implement opening up and international exchanges. In addition, China can also promote many other initiatives on the basis of the Belt and Road Initiative, the Global Development Initiative and the Global Security Initiative.

Compere:

So what problems do you think China needs to solve in the future?

Sheraf:

As mentioned earlier, China is essentially a peaceful country, so the main concern is to develop the economy to a greater extent for the benefit of Chinese people – as I said before, development depends on the people, development for the people, which is very important. On the other hand, China can well gather the hearts of the people, unite the people, unite the country, and contribute wisdom to the construction of the international system. So I think in the next stage, China will work together with other partners to build a rules-based multilateral system and world order, because the current international system is actually very unilateral. So I believe that in the next stage, China and its partners will really help the world, especially the developing countries, to build a more reasonable world order.

Compere:

Is there anything else you'd like to share with us?

Sheraf:

Yes, I have something very important to add about why we need these global initiatives and why I am particularly concerned about peace and development. There is no development without peace, so if we want to develop, we must be peaceful. Global development is a key issue, and the Sustainable Development Goals are also a global issue. Therefore, in order to achieve global development, it is necessary to ensure global security, which is the essence of China's global security initiative and global development initiative.

Why do I say that? Because the main challenge facing the world today is peace and development, and once these two problems are resolved, the world's threats can be translated into the world's well-being. Peace and development are therefore essential. In fact, we have encountered many difficulties in peace and development, but if people can make good use of the Global Security Initiative and the Global Development Initiative, these initiatives will present great prospects to the world. That is why we should work together to implement these two initiatives, or we will continue to face serious international threats because we lack security — and, of course, development.