Interface News Reporter | Xu Luqing
Interface News Editor | Yellow Moon
Many of them have both the pleasure of depravity in their hearts, and they are also enduring the contradictions and entanglements of the fallen realm and the day and sunshine world, enduring their irreplaceable flesh, sometimes expressing anger and condemnation of something, sometimes harmoniously and skillfully finding self-consistency... I think it's good for them to live smartly and smartly.
Seven years ago, in her essay collection "Bouquet for Love and the Womb," Ryomi Suzuki dissected herself and other women who plunged into the night world. In China, most readers know Ryomi Suzuki from her conversation with Chizuko Ueno. Born into an intellectual family, she graduated from the Department of Sociology at the University of Tokyo as an economic journalist and writer, wandering the nightclub world at night, working in the industry and working as an AV actress.
In fact, before corresponding, Chizuko Ueno, Ryomi Suzuki had been writing for years. Her sociological research on the sex industry was the first to inspire resistance to the idea that women in the sex industry and the sex industry are victims—"We are smarter and stronger, and men are miserable and weak." Ryomi Suzuki's anthology "Japan's Uncles" and "Non-Extinct Men and Women" lightly mocked the appearance of male beings, and the novel "Gifted", which focuses on women in the night scene, was also shortlisted for the Wasagawa Prize for a time.
Seven years ago, she wrote a collection of essays "Bouquet for Love and the Womb", which records the temptations and entanglements of lingering in the night world, and cares about the entanglement between women and mothers who are involved in it, "fulfillment leads to all kinds of bondage, and love can also produce all kinds of nausea". In 2021, she completed another sociological study, "JJ and Its Era: What Girls Dream About in Magazines," a Japanese fashion magazine positioned as a "good marriage," and Suzuki believes that the female readers of this magazine are not a group of people who are stared at by men, but also draw strength from the magazine to become more independent and free.
Ryomi Suzuki (Image source: Douban)
On the occasion of the publication of "Bouquet for Love and the Womb" in Chinese World, interface culture reporters interviewed Ryomi Suzuki in Tokyo. We talked about night writing, the mother-daughter relationship, Japanese customs, and the differences between her and Chizuko Ueno's second-generation Japanese women.
From the early night world to the recent study of JJ, Ryomi Suzuki's thinking interests do not seem to have changed much, that is: in the patriarchal network, how can individual women use their own subjectivity to open up living space, and even use patriarchal rules in turn? In an interview with Interface Culture, she mentioned that her mentality is always "Anyway, society is like this, so I will look for how to make myself happier and more relaxed lifestyle", but after the correspondence with Chizuko Ueno, she had more hesitation about this "open-mindedness": Is it possible to live a happy and relaxed life?
01 Writing: Night world women and their relationship with their mothers are my greatest interests
Interface Culture: Unlike Japanese readers, Chinese readers first met you through Chizuko Ueno's collection of correspondence, "Starting at the Limit," in which you have conversations around feminist topics. In contrast, the book "Bouquet for Love and the Womb" is more like your life essay, what is its position in the context of your writing? What made you start writing it?
Ryomi Suzuki: In Japan, my correspondence with Ms. Chizuko Ueno has also received some attention, and some people have the impression that I am someone who has recently published a book with Ueno. "Bouquet for Love and the Womb" published in China this time is a work that I wrote earlier, closer to my origin. One of the themes I focus on in the book is women working in the night world and their relationships with their mothers, which is pretty much my greatest interest.
Interface Culture: Your correspondence with Chizuko Ueno has sparked a lot of discussion in China, what was the attention and feedback from Japanese readers about this book?
Ryomi Suzuki: There are many different types of readers of communications. Some of them are Ms. Ueno's peers or slightly younger readers, and they may be attracted by what Ueno-sensei would say to the younger generation; There are also many young readers who are interested in feminism, but feel that the feminism discussed online or in college is a little different from what I want to express, and I am not a very feminist author in Japan; There are also people who are interested in how people like me would have a conversation with Ms. Ueno.
This collection of correspondence also often appears in the list of "books I like" listed by some male readers, and there may be many Japanese men who have also entered the stage of reflection. They see unconscious perpetrator characters in them, or see places where women's troubles they never understand, and many male readers want to hear the truth of women from them.
"Bouquet for Love and the Womb" [Japan] by Ryomi Suzuki, translated by Lake, one page folio, Guangxi Normal University Press, 2023-03
Interface Culture: You and Chizuko Ueno belong to different generations of women, and you can see in the correspondence that you have many differences in opinion, such as the cynicism and fear of weakness she mentioned, and you also raised your own confusion. What are the main areas of disagreement between you and her? How do you understand your generation's place in feminist thought?
Ryomi Suzuki: In Japan, Ueno-sensei's generation of women was the ones who fought for a more diverse lifestyle for women in the 70s and 80s, where gender roles were still very different, and I am very grateful and respectful that I was able to live in an era of greater freedom. However, it is natural to think differently between the generation that looks for breakthroughs and breaks down barriers on a path that does not exist, and the generation that can make choices.
For example, if a woman wants to enter an all-male workplace alone, she must fight sexism, otherwise she will soon lose her place, and for them may not be able to say things like "women are still more comfortable at home", but more sensitive and hardworking.
When I was born, it was no longer the era of educating women not to go to college and only help their husbands, so I would probably be more relaxed and casual. It's great that women have the same opportunities as men, but there are things that men have always done that I don't want to do. For example, I think it's good to have men treat me on the first date, and I want them to invite me in the future. But for the previous generation, which had to advocate equality between men and women, nothing could be said.
Feminist scholar Chizuko Ueno
Regarding the fear of weakness, I can very well understand what Ms. Ueno said, but there are still some things that I don't want to think so. When I was young, I entered the night world, and I felt that this was not necessarily a world of strong men and weak women, and there was no feeling that they were squeezed by all male will, but rather that we had mastered male sexuality and weakness. After all, this is an industry where young women can get high monetary returns from them, so it's more like we're taking advantage of the uncles. From my personal experience, I have never thought that men are completely strong. So Ms. Ueno's statement surprised and amused me, but I really didn't feel like a victim.
Interface Culture: In 2021, you published a sociological work "JJ and Its Era: What Girls Dream About in Magazines", which focuses on the fashion magazine "JJ" that "aims to marry an ideal man", and you focus on how women draw strength and become more independent and free through it. This seems to continue your usual perspective in "The Sociology of AV Actresses" - how individual women in patriarchal networks rely on subjectivity to open up living space, and even use patriarchal rules in turn. Is such a counteraction possible? How do you understand its resistance potential and potential dangers?
Ryomi Suzuki: In the context of the existence of a patriarchal society, I think there are many ways to pursue happiness. I have great respect for the fact that enthusiastic people in social movements, such as social activists and university teachers, will point out the wrong parts and correct the trajectory of the whole society.
Ryomi Suzuki (Image source: Douban)
But maybe because I used to be in the night world, I felt that men's desire for women was not so easy to change, so I felt in my heart that society is like this anyway, and it is better to look for more ways to make myself happier and more relaxed. This was especially true when I was younger, and I mentioned in my correspondence with Ms. Ueno that the train is a place where there will be idiots, so women of my generation have a lot of clever defenses, such as trying to wear clothes that will not be touched by idiots, or bringing an alarm bell, and I don't think about how to get rid of idiots.
I have been making little effort to change this kind of reality, but if I emphasize that I can live my life well in society with various skills, and think that this can protect the happiness of women, I am likely to pull back people who want to change society, or make some statements that are conducive to maintaining the status quo in a patriarchal society. Perhaps Ms. Ueno was also wary of this part of my thoughts.
Interface Culture: Lake, the Chinese translator of "Bouquet for Love and the Womb," feels that many people who read your book carry a "female gaze" - "there is contempt but there must be understanding; There is a sense of distance, but you can definitely feel the comradeship. Because we are in her, we also hide a part of ourselves. ”
You will be troubled that the media always uses AV actress tags to create topics for your writing, what is the relationship you feel with your readers? Have you experienced the so-called "female gaze"?
Ryomi Suzuki: I went to Waseda University some time ago, where I met a Chinese who was studying feminism in graduate school. She told me that I am now a talking point in the discussion of Chinese feminism, and I am very happy about that.
From time to time, I was criticized by feminist teachers for thinking wrongly, and men around the age of 30 thought that this woman was so arrogant and often angered on both sides. My first articles were serialized in men's magazines, and at first I was interested in my experience—a relatively well-educated but H (pornographic) job—by uncles who looked at me strangely. Although I am interested in cowherds or male staff, whether in fiction or prose, I write mostly about women, and I have always had a sense of writing for female readers.
Fashion Magazine JJ
02 Night World: Women in the night world and women who work during the day fight in different worlds
Interface Culture: The Night World is your most important object to write about, whether in "Bouquet for Love and the Womb" or later "Gifted". You once said in an interview: "I just like AV actresses, prostitutes and other women who are in the night world. "What fascinates you about the night world?
Ryomi Suzuki: I spent my adolescence at a time when the gender roles of men and women were no longer clearly distinguished. In education, employment, or family life, I didn't feel much about being a woman. However, Night World is a special place. I'm interested in how women will face their physical worth, men's lust for them, and their lives as women at a time when they can already get the same education, work, and earn money as men. The night world is a world where women's physical value is still high, and women in it seem to be fighting in a completely different world from the women who work during the day, which is also the charm of the night world for me.
Interface Culture: Have you read other women's writings at nighttime? Can you talk about your favorite nightclub works and writers? How do they influence you?
Ryomi Suzuki: There is an actress in Japan named Izumi Suzuki, who used to be an AV actress and later became a writer. My name is Ryomi Suzuki and she is Izumi Suzuki, and although it is not related, I like her very much. She died a long time ago, younger than I am now. When I was a child, I also had an actress who was very active on TV called Ai Iijima, who also died suddenly when she was younger than me.
Many of the women I admired when I was young to go from AV actresses to television personalities or writers were very poor and left early. Marilyn Monroe, who is famous as a sexy star abroad, also died at the age of about 37. Among celebrities who have worked in sex work, there are relatively few people who live to the age where they should no longer sell their body value and change careers, and I am 40 years old, so I feel that there is no role model at this age.
Ryomi Suzuki was selected for "Gifted" shortlisted for the Wasagawa Award
Interface culture: "Bouquet for Love and the Womb" also mentions women's consumption of cowherds in many places, do you think the relationship between women and cowherds, and the interaction between men and night ladies is different? The rise of the cowherd industry does not exactly mean that women have more control, what do you observe the relationship between cowherd and customers in general?
Ryomi Suzuki: In restaurants where women accompany alcohol, we see a lot of male customers who are very domineering and high-spirited, but in the cowherd shop where women pay, it is the cowherd who is very domineering. Some women will pay to find men who are more domineering and ordering, while some men may not be able to put up shelves in the company, but will go to the store that accompanies the wine lady to put up a shelf. In essence, the relationships that women and men pursue, including sex, are very different.
The situation of male and female workers is very different. One characteristic of girls who work in custom shops is that many of them did not grow up in poor families and have received a relatively good education, and it is common for them to go to college during the day and work part-time as escorts at night.
But male drinking may be a path that is clearly separate from the rest of life, and it is very rare to be a cowherd while going to college or other jobs. Many cowherds come to be cowherds because they cannot be contacted, engage in other professions, or do not have enough education. Many Shinjuku Kabukicho cowherds live only in Shinjuku and have no other friends, and after coming to Tokyo, they have only been cowherds, and they have never been to streets such as Roppongi and Ginza (Note: where large companies and shopping malls in Tokyo are concentrated). While women may be smarter and more skillful, a person can have both the day side and the night side at the same time.
In Japan, there are overwhelmingly more escorts than cowherds. Compared with women, men who say that they have worked in AV or cowherd will be looked at more discriminatorily. There is also a group of men who work for women, and they are much harsher in their criticism than women. For example, feminists will argue that the state should take relief measures for women in this industry during the epidemic, but they have no sympathy for the staff or sweepers, etc., or treat them as bad people who sell women's bodies.
Japan Kabuki
Interface Culture: In "Japan's Uncles" and "Non-Extinction Men and Women", you laugh and scold male beings, and in your correspondence with Chizuko Ueno, you also ask how not to despair of men. Is your attitude towards men still the same now? Is this attitude common among Japanese women?
Ryomi Suzuki: When I was a female high school student, I worked part-time to sell underwear worn by female high school students to my uncle. For 500 yen of underwear, we high school girls wear it for a few hours, and our uncle will pay several times the price such as 10,000 yen to buy it. At that time, I felt that it was impossible to understand each other with this creature, and I had always been a little broken.
Because the era of Japanese men being high-spirited and women being difficult to enter society is very long, and men are very simple, it is common for them to be coaxed first, give men face on the surface, and women are free to do themselves behind their backs. There are relatively few attitudes like mine that write books about men's complaints and talk about them everywhere.
03 Mother-daughter relationship: My mother is both an enemy and a friend to me
Interface Culture: The Bouquet for Love and the Womb took many years to write. You started writing the book when your mother had her first cancer surgery, and six months before it was written, she passed away. As a reader, I can vaguely feel that before your mother's death, you were more comfortable with the night show and AV experience, but at the end of the book it seems that you become a little hesitant, what is it that shakes? Why did the night world lose its charm to you after your mother's death?
Ryomi Suzuki: I first wrote this book in a magazine when my mother was still alive, and by the time the book was published, she had died. For me, the relationship with my mother has been an annoyance for me since adolescence, but at the same time it has been my luck.
My mother worked as a translator and taught me a lot about writing and language. When I was younger, I loved nightlife, and my mother, as a member of the previous generation—probably a generation closer to Ms. Ueno—was very resistant to women selling their bodies.
When she was still alive, in order to be able to remain antagonistic, I always insisted a little too much about denying my past. After her death, I found myself losing an arguable opponent. When I wrote this book, I was able to be more honest about the dislikes or regrets of the night world that I could not face when my mother was alive.
Childhood Ryomi Suzuki and her parents (Image source: Weibo)
Interface Culture: Looking back at the expressions in this book now, have your feelings for your mother changed?
Ryomi Suzuki: It's been about 7 years since my mother died. My mother was both an enemy and a friend to me, and it was very lonely to lose such an enemy and friend. Compared to the places that were not understood by my mother and the places where we confronted, I became more and more aware of the similarities with my mother and the places where she was influenced.
Many times, answering my mother's questions is a process of sorting out my thoughts for me. The loss of my mother was a very heavy blow not only for me as a daughter, but also for me as a writer. I've been thinking more and more lately that if I can still talk to my mother, maybe my writing can go to another level, which is a huge loss for me.
Interface Culture: The metaphor that the mother is a iguana is mentioned many times in the book. In the Japanese manga "Daughter of the Iguana", the mother thinks that her eldest daughter is a iguana, and has been prejudiced and disgusted with her since her daughter was born, and only when she dies that she finds out that she was turned into a human from a iguana to repay her favor, and she has always buried a deep fear of "being a lizard and not a human" in her heart. Her dislike of her eldest daughter is actually her inner disgust for her true identity. The title of your last article was "Neither a iguana nor a man", how do you understand the connection between your relationship with your mother and this story?
Ryomi Suzuki: When I was younger, I watched Japanese TV dramas and manga "Daughter of the Iguana", and my mother and her daughter had both love and hate, they wanted to love each other very much, but at the same time hated each other. This is the story of a mother who cannot love her daughter because she is too similar to herself, and her daughter who finally understands her mother until after her death. The mother in the story often bullies her daughter, and although this is different from my relationship with my mother, this manga about the complex relationship between mother and daughter left a deep impression on me.
When I talked to Ms. Ueno, she and I were certainly not mother-daughter relationships, but we had the same female bodies and similar troubles. The age difference of about 30 years leads to the scenery we see, the treatment we receive, and the men around us who see us differently. Even if the mother thinks that something is absolutely good for her daughter, the daughter living in today's society will think that it is not the teaching she needs. Because mother and daughter have the same body in different environments, they have similar troubles and are prone to differences that are difficult for both parties to accept.