Reporter | Intern reporter Liu Shiqi reporter Pan Wenjie
Edit | Yellow Moon
The sergeant grabbed the Turkish machete and began to slash at the dumb man," while shouting, "Speak! Better not to provoke me, you bitchy Indian," and no one stood up, and the mute just stared at his bulging eyes, which were almost about to burst out of his eyes in utter horror, and still could not answer the sergeant's question—of course he could not answer. The sergeant naturally saw his silence as a provocation to himself, pulling out a large knife to force the other side to say the answer he wanted to hear as smoothly as a ball game commentator... What a stupid and murderous sergeant, he hacked the mute to death. But they never knew that the screams were not just because of pain, they were the only way to express dumbness. - "Deranged"
In a remote village, the mute was tied to a tree by the side of the square by the invading sergeant and demanded the names of the village guerrillas. Screaming is the only way dumb people express themselves, and the only way other villagers express themselves—in the face of extreme violence and fear, everyone is speechless. As the carnival of killings fills the country, the entire population will also fall into insanity. It's a memoir of indians as Holocaust survivors, and it's the work of "I" in the novel—proofreading an oral account of hundreds of massacres.
Horacio Castellanos Moya, as an important writer in the post-"literary explosion" era in Latin America, has recently introduced and published his novel "Deranged" in China. Derangement tells the story of a fugitive writer who gradually goes insane by editing an eleven-hundred-page archive of testimonies.
"This testimony is like a condensed capsule full of pain, so loud, powerful and profound every word." In order to resist this pain and fear, "I" ridicule everything, doubt everything, and gain self-rationality by disbelief. At the same time, "I" use sex and the search for poetry in the testimony to cover up the violence and bloodshed in the testimony, but in the end it still goes to paranoia and sinking.
"I" obsessively argued with the doorman whether the gunshots on the street were five or six, "I" felt that everyone on the street was going to come after me, "I" was constantly caught up in the illusion of grabbing the head of a newborn baby and crashing into the beam, and finally, "I" returned home at the carnival shouting the slogan "We all know who the murderer is", and imagination and reality gradually overlapped.
In an interview with Interface Culture (ID: booksandfun), Moya said that "in Central America, death is too imminent, people end up making fun of it, there is no other way", "I" confusion is the real dilemma of people in Central America.
Moya is obsessed with describing the psychological state of people under the trauma of history, politics is the soil, and talent is the goal. He mentioned, "It's hard for a writer to get into a character's brain, and it's probably harder to get out later... My novels are psychological in nature, and they present the thoughts and emotional activities of people in specific situations. ”
In a pathological society rife with political fanaticism, how do people survive? When the scar of history becomes a collective memory, how will it guide the lives of future generations? When violence becomes more and more normalized and insanity becomes a common phenomenon, how should madness and civilization be defined? Moya tries to answer these difficult questions with the novel "Insanity". In addition, in this interview, he also responded to questions about "black humor", the concept of destiny, and the relationship between literature and politics.
01 We use laughter to ward off insanity
Interface culture: "Deranged" is both the title of the novel and the state of the characters in the novel. The novel tries to make violence and bloody playful, humorous, and everyday, which to a certain extent also causes a confusion in the reader's reading experience. As an author, how many layers of meaning do you understand confusion?
MOYA: There are several layers of meaning. Confusion in everyday life stems from a lack of common sense. There is no direct violence in the novel, and violence only exists in the human rights report that the protagonist reads. Most of the events occur in the protagonist's mind, and the novel describes his psychological state. And these states conflict with common sense, and it is this deranged state of mind that makes the reader laugh.
On another level, the insanity of history lies in the use of wrong, even criminal, rationality in dealing with collective problems. Political leaders will argue that violence and massacres will solve the problem, but this so-called rationality is a kind of historical insanity. Because in the long run, violence only exacerbates problems and causes them to recur.
Finally, there is a confusion of the cosmology that stems from the idea that humans are the only species that exist in the universe, and therefore can "conquer" the universe. The truth, however, is that we have no idea what the meaning of our existence is on this lost, isolated planet.
Interface Culture: "Deranged" quotes a quote from Ismene in Antigone in the title page quotation: "Ah, Lord, man is unlucky, even the innate sanity is difficult to maintain, it will be confused." "In Antigone, Ismene is the bearer of his father's incestuous sin and the bearer of his actual fate, never taking the initiative to fight. Ismene believed that the confusion was a violation of the actual order and the law, while Antigone believed that the confusion was a violation of the divine law, a violation of natural emotions, and the obedience to irrational human law. Is the "I" in Deranged a Ismene-esque character? What do you think of the behavior of Ismene and Antigone?
Moya: The "I" in Derange is closer to Ismene than antigone: he works to earn a salary and survives within the realm of the law; There was no rebellion in him, only confusion and unconsciousness. Those who are seen as enemies by political power —Teucer in Antigone's story, and guatemalan troops in Derange— are bound to fall into a situation of vulnerability and helplessness. The relationship between Antigone's myths and my novels may lie in the fact that they both describe this fragile state.
Interface culture: "Witness literature", as an important genre of 20th-century Literature in Mesoamerica, mainly refers to non-fiction works based on historical truth, writing the protest demands of marginalized groups and carrying out social mobilization. How do you see the history of the individual and the history of "witness literature" writing?
MOYA: Individual history is largely determined by collective history. No matter how much one wants to be different, or to escape from the society to which he belongs, it is impossible to shake off the imprint of collective history. During the civil war, Guatemala's indigenous people were subjected to military repression, and the individual lives of these victims were determined by this tragic collective fate.
Interface Culture: You once said in a talk, "We use laughter to ward off insanity." In "Deranged", humorous satire, paranoia, etc. are all psychological protection mechanisms of "me", trying to resist insanity, but in the end" "I" still have a mental breakdown. Is this collapse an inescapable fate? To face the world with humor and paranoia is to passive obedience to the actual order or to a limited rebellion?
Moya: It seems to me that fate is destiny because it is inevitable, at least as far as Greek mythology is concerned, Lyjous, Oedipus, Toclos, Pentus, etc. all refused to accept their fate, tried to change or escape it, but without success. The protagonist of "Deranged" cannot escape his fate. Indeed, humor can function as a mechanism of confrontation when reality is very harsh, able to weaken the intensity or harshness of an event. It can be used to reduce mental stress when we have to face a harsh, stressful life.
02 Having nothing to rely on and no way to hold on to leads him to sink
Interface culture: Humor may be able to mitigate the harm of harsh reality, and many of the humorous and ironic statements in "Deranged" seem to dilute the violence of history, how do you regulate and use this humor?
MOYA: I don't think about humor when I write, or even think about maintaining any form of balance. What I did was get into the character's head, get to know how he saw the world, and build on that to develop his story. This character does not do what he says or does because he wants to laugh, but intentionally wants to be funny or create humor. Whatever he says and does is normal or even serious in doing and saying. It was his lack of common sense—and I repeat, his unconsciousness about his lack of common sense—that created the humor effect on the story.
Interface Culture: You once said, "I basically don't give empathy to my characters, I'm not that kind of writer." If we give sympathy to the "I" in "Deranged", will it lead to the dissolution of the psychological defense mechanism of humorous irony?
Moya: This character does not sympathize with anyone, whether the victim or the perpetrator, even though his mental state was at one point with both sides. Identification and compassion are not the same. I think that if he has sympathy for a cause, then he will become another character, and we will see another story, another novel. And this psychological trait of self-protection through humor and satire can be seen in most people who have witnessed some extreme irrational violence. In Central America, death is so imminent that people end up making fun of it.
Interface Culture: In Deranged, it seems that "I" have a sarcastic, disbelieving attitude toward everything, and "I" are deconstructing everything, including "I" myself. Do you think there is anything that is eternal and holdable?
MOYA: My feeling is that this is a character who is going to step into the abyss sooner or later, because he has nothing to rely on. He laughs at violence, but at the same time is a man whose thoughts and emotions are deeply affected by it. This state of being unsupportable and untenable will eventually lead to his downfall.
Interface Culture: Many chapters in Deranged begin with statements of time and place ("Today's first day on the job", "That morning I woke up in my apartment in the Encas Building", "This Sunday", "That morning", "I was in bed", "I came to Apartments 1-25 on Sixth Avenue at 8:30 p.m."), are you trying to use this logical narrative to make sure that "I" am not confused?
MOYA: It seems to me that one of the characteristics of neurotic personality is the attachment to the orientation of time and space, which they themselves often do not realize. This character is like this, and his attention to time and space is to grasp some sense of reality. But I need to remind you that he doesn't realize he's going crazy. It is this unconsciousness that leads to some passages that seem funny to the reader. To a sane person, this is a ridiculous argument. But paranoid personalities pay the most attention to detail, and they are torn around in the world of details and cannot get out. This character is exactly that. The line between paranoia and absurdity is delicate.
03 Literature exposes lies to the sun
Interface Culture: Salvadoran writer Miguel Wesso Mixter once used three words beginning with V to describe contemporary Salvadoran society: violenta, evil (vil), and vacía, which has long been in the midst of gangsters, civil wars, shootings, robberies, and violence has become the label of Central America. Will the continued attention and writing of Mesoamerican writers about violence counterproductively reinforce this national character? At the same time, it also further solidifies people's way of dealing with problems on violence.
MOYA: Literature is a product of a society, not its cause. The writer perceives, projects, reproduces, fictionalizes what society has given him or her. If society is violent, literature will express that violence either explicitly or implicitly. At best, literature can only ask questions about the complexities, nuances, and inherent conflicts of people and their surroundings. Literature helps humanity to see itself, without hiding and hiding in its own self; See the power of lies, and see the fragility of lies. All violence contains lies, and the violence of a country can only expose its great lies. Literature does not consolidate these always hidden lies, but tries to expose them to the sun.
Interface Culture: You mentioned the violent experiences of your childhood many times, and the novels are full of violent narratives. Did this violent childhood memory become a creative undertone you can't get rid of today?
MOYA: The relationship between a writer and his childhood and adolescence varies from person to person, and this relationship affects the writer in a very personal way, and it cannot be generalized. Some people say that the most decisive is childhood, others say it is adolescence; In my case, both memories have left an impact. But I think that those things that I can't remember have more of an impact on me than what I remember. It is the "dark side of the moon" that exists in everyone. It is precisely because of its darkness and unknown that it can be more decisive than the known parts of memory. This section will also leave a mark on the writer's worldview and his attitude towards life and creation.
Interface Culture: In interviews with other media, you said that your knowledge of Chinese literature is limited to ancient poets such as Li Bai and Du Fu. Coincidentally, Bolaño also mentioned Tao Yuanming, Wang Wei, Li Bai, Du Fu and Bai Juyi in "Wilderness Detective".
MOYA: I didn't know that Bolaño liked these poets as well. Maybe it's a coincidence. In the mid-1970s, I, along with my Salvadoran poet friends, read these works with great admiration. To what extent these poems affect us, I don't know. In my opinion, they embody the pinnacle of a world of poetry.
Interface Culture: The "I" in Deranged has distinctly modern cynicism characteristics, doubting everything, not believing in morality and intellectualism, utilitarianism, "gaining self-rationality by disbelief," and exalting the value of nihilism. Contemporary people seem to use this cynicism as a shell for self-protection, how do you see this cynicism pervasive in modern society?
MOYA: Nihilism is the denial of all moral, religious, and political beliefs. In my opinion, this is too advanced for the protagonist of "Deranged", because he lives in an environment where he has faith and dies, and he is just using his refusal to believe to protect himself and keep himself alive. He came from a pathological society rife with political fanaticism. His attitude towards life is not expounded through theory, but only a survival mechanism. On the other hand, I'm not sure the world is more cynical now than it was in the past: cynicism and hypocrisy have always existed, especially for those in power. The difference is that people are now more likely to see and realize it.
Interface Culture: Now that you live primarily in the U.S. and Switzerland, will the novels after that consider shifting narrative perspectives and content to the U.S. or European countries?
Moya: My latest novel, El Hombre amansado (2022), takes place in Stockholm, and the previous novel, Moronga (2018), takes place in a small Midwestern town called Merlow City, Washington, D.C., and Chicago. Usually, the places where writers have lived will provide scenes for their stories, and as for my characters, they are still the tortured, dangerous, maladaptive people from Central America.
(Thanks to Zhang Tingting, the translator of "Deranged", for providing translation assistance)